Thoughts of a Prince

Why are they try heroizing suicide. Man people are stupid.

How are they doing that? ... what does that even mean?

How are they doing that? ... what does that even mean?

Sorry, I did a 50 cent there and created my own word, it actually flows pretty well together, not as good as commercialization though. Anyway, when you support something on a wide scale, it will draw people to the cause. Only some people will go further and beyond. So when we hail the gays who committed suicide over some bullying(boo hoo), people might think that taking their own life thinking that's it's socially okay. It turns out, suicide isn't okay, at all. Like it turns out, when you die, you stay that way. It's one of those bad things to make popular and to make it seem okay.

Sorry, I did a 50 cent there and created my own word, it actually flows pretty well together, not as good as commercialization though. Anyway, when you support something on a wide scale, it will draw people to the cause. Only some people will go further and beyond. So when we hail the gays who committed suicide over some bullying(boo hoo), people might think that taking their own life thinking that's it's socially okay. It turns out, suicide isn't okay, at all. Like it turns out, when you die, you stay that way. It's one of those bad things to make popular and to make it seem okay.

Yeah, I agree. Suicide is terrible. That's the whole damn point.

First off, minimising the problem with your sarcastic "boo hoo" is really uncalled for. What we're talking about is blatant bigotry which is unacceptable under any circumstance.

Second, it's not "hailing" people who committed suicide, it's remembering people who have died needlessly and raising awareness so that more don't do the same. There shouldn't need to be any further excuse or justification.

Lastly, I don't see any reason why this would make anyone think suicide is okay unless they were already severely unhinged and already beyond any normal scope of consequence. Raising awareness of a problem that has led to suicide because suicide is bad means that suicide is okay? That's just as likely as people starting to smoke because of anti-smoking campaigns.

Yeah, I agree. Suicide is terrible. That's the whole damn point.

First off, minimising the problem with your sarcastic "boo hoo" is really uncalled for. What we're talking about is blatant bigotry which is unacceptable under any circumstance.

Second, it's not "hailing" people who committed suicide, it's remembering people who have died needlessly and raising awareness so that more don't do the same. There shouldn't need to be any further excuse or justification.

Lastly, I don't see any reason why this would make anyone think suicide is okay unless they were already severely unhinged and already beyond any normal scope of consequence. Raising awareness of a problem that has led to suicide because suicide is bad means that suicide is okay? That's just as likely as people starting to smoke because of anti-smoking campaigns.

What are you talking about? This is blatant bigotry, people get made fun of all the time this isn't a, "You're gay, you suck... literally! lol" thing this is kids being kids. You don't see any other minority committing suicide en masse because they're also being bullied. Hell, if I had a nickel every time someone made a Mexican joke, I could pay Bill Gates to shine my shoes. The best thing is, I'm Paraguayan.

To quote gayrights.org or whatever it is.

Tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of people will be donning purple this coming Wednesday to honor those young lives

Also, awareness is one of the worse ways to fight suicide. I'll give you an example:

One chapter, for example, deals with the very strange epidemic of teenage suicide in the South Pacific islands of Micronesia. In the 1970's and 1980's, Micronesia had teen suicide rates ten times higher than anywhere else in the world. Teenagers were literally being infected with the suicide bug, and one after another they were killing themselves in exactly the same way under exactly the same circumstances. We like to use words like contagiousness and infectiousness just to apply to the medical realm. But I assure you that after you read about what happened in Micronesia you'll be convinced that behavior can be transmitted from one person to another as easily as the flu or the measles can

That massive suicide started from one person who was alienated by his father and grandparents. That led to the suicides of many human beings. So when you shed light on it, you will make it more popular and even make people try it. This isn't a you're screwed up in the head type of thing. Have you ever thought about yawning for instance? Yawning is a surprisingly powerful act. Just because you read the word "yawning" in the previous two secntences -- and the two additional "yawns" in this sentence -- there is a good chance you will yawn. Even as I'm writing this I've yawned twice. If you're reading this in a public place, and you've just yawned, chances are that a good proportion of everyone who saw you yawn is now yawning too, and a good proportion of the people watching the people who watched you yawn are now yawning as well, and on and on, in a ever-widening, yawning circle. Yawning is incredibly contagious. I made some of you reading this yawn simply by writing the word "yawn". The people who yawned when they saw you yawn, meanwhile, were infected by the sight of you yawning--which is a second kind of contagion. They might even have yawned if they only heard you yawn, because yawning is also aurally contagious: if you play an audio-tape of a yawn to blind people, they'll yawn too. Now, replace yawning with suicide and think about it.

What are you talking about? This is blatant bigotry, people get made fun of all the time this isn't a, "You're gay, you suck... literally! lol" thing this is kids being kids. You don't see any other minority committing suicide en masse because they're also being bullied. Hell, if I had a nickel every time someone made a Mexican joke, I could pay Bill Gates to shine my shoes. The best thing is, I'm Paraguayan.

Okay, what? Yes it is bigotry. What else do you call it when someone targets a group due to their own intolerance?

There probably are other kids part of other minority groups that commit suicide due to bullying, and that's terrible, but that shouldn't in any way downplay the significance of another groups problems (and vice versa).

Just because you're okay with bigotry towards yourself (albeit mistaken bigotry), doesn't mean that it is okay in other contexts.

Also, awareness is one of the worse ways to fight suicide. I'll give you an example:

That massive suicide started from one person who was alienated by his father and grandparents. That led to the suicides of many human beings. So when you shed light on it, you will make it more popular and even make people try it. This isn't a you're screwed up in the head type of thing. Have you ever thought about yawning for instance? Yawning is a surprisingly powerful act. Just because you read the word "yawning" in the previous two secntences -- and the two additional "yawns" in this sentence -- there is a good chance you will yawn. [/color]Even as I'm writing this I've yawned twice. If you're reading this in a public place, and you've just yawned, chances are that a good proportion of everyone who saw you yawn is now yawning too, and a good proportion of the people watching the people who watched you yawn are now yawning as well, and on and on, in a ever-widening, yawning circle. Yawning is incredibly contagious. I made some of you reading this yawn simply by writing the word "yawn". The people who yawned when they saw you yawn, meanwhile, were infected by the sight of you yawning--which is a second kind of contagion. They might even have yawned if they only heard you yawn, because yawning is also aurally contagious: if you play an audio-tape of a yawn to blind people, they'll yawn too. Now, replace yawning with suicide and think about it.

Well I didn't yawn, so I guess I'm lucky that I am not succeptible to this psychological "bug" that makes people do whatever they hear other people do without thinking.

Give me a break. If there was any shred of credible scientific evidence that awareness of suicide caused more suicides then we wouldn't have things like World Suicide Prevention Day and National Suicide Prevention Week. The culture in Micronesia is drastically different from ours, and reducing the reasons for why the mass of suicides occured down to "Because they heard about other people doing it" is ignoring a large number of other factors.

Okay, what? Yes it is bigotry. What else do you call it when someone targets a group due to their own intolerance?

There probably are other kids part of other minority groups that commit suicide due to bullying, and that's terrible, but that shouldn't in any way downplay the significance of another groups problems (and vice versa).

Just because you're okay with bigotry towards yourself (albeit mistaken bigotry), doesn't mean that it is okay in other contexts.

Well I didn't yawn, so I guess I'm lucky that I am not succeptible to this psychological "bug" that makes people do whatever they hear other people do without thinking.

Give me a break. If there was any shred of credible scientific evidence that awareness of suicide caused more suicides then we wouldn't have things like World Suicide Prevention Day and National Suicide Prevention Week. The culture in Micronesia is drastically different from ours, and reducing the reasons for why the mass of suicides occured down to "Because they heard about other people doing it" is ignoring a large number of other factors.

Bullying isn't directed to gays all the time. It's directed to everyone, I've even seen people who are of the same race and gender make fun of the people who are in their own race or gender. Everyone gets bullied, some times you just need to be a man about it. This isn't a strictly biggotry thing, this is people being people.

Okay, maybe you aren't, congrats. Now try this, next time you're in somewhere in closed proximity with many people just let out a yawn and see how many people yawn after that. I tried it and it's pretty freaking interesting to see the result.

What? Bullying is a worldy thing. Turns out being gay also happens across the world. Is Micronesia not part of the the world? I mean, even that purple day was started in Canada. Suicide can be an epedemic like anything else, I don't know why you're trying to say it's not.

What are you talking about? This is blatant bigotry, people get made fun of all the time this isn't a, "You're gay, you suck... literally! lol" thing this is kids being kids. You don't see any other minority committing suicide en masse because they're also being bullied.

The thing is, these kids aren't just getting bullied by other kids. The general climate is one where gay people are made to feel less than human. We are told on a regular basis that we are bound to hell because we are unrepentant sinners because of something about us that is unchangeable. We have laws passed against us all over, from the inability to donate blood all the way to DOMA, DADT, adoption laws and so forth. Having conservative parents or being raised in a socially conservative area compounds the situation all too often. The message that this sends gay people, particularly youth, is that they are inherently bad and less "human" than everyone else. Some people can rise above this relentless abuse from so many parts of society, and some can't, particularly those from locations where they may not have access to helpful resources (like a support group). They are drowning in intolerance.

There isn't really any other minority group that you can compare the LGBT community to because those comparisons don't hold up to scrutiny.

Perhaps this is difficult for a straight person to understand, having never gone through that.

Also, yes, all suicide is saddening and should be addressed. That, however, is absolutely no reason to single out gay people who commit suicide for marginalization. Doing so will make you look like a homophobe (whether you actually are or not).

Bullying isn't directed to gays all the time. It's directed to everyone, I've even seen people who are of the same race and gender make fun of the people who are in their own race or gender. Everyone gets bullied, some times you just need to be a man about it. This isn't a strictly biggotry thing, this is people being people.

I'm not trying to say that it's strictly a biggotry thing - but you can't say that it isn't part of it. And just because it's "people being people" doesn't mean that it should be accepted or ignored. And as Imrahil has said above, while bullying is fairly universal, when it is directed towards gay kids it can be particularly damaging when you take into account all of the other pressures on them.

Okay, maybe you aren't, congrats. Now try this, next time you're in somewhere in closed proximity with many people just let out a yawn and see how many people yawn after that. I tried it and it's pretty freaking interesting to see the result.

Yes I know that people yawning causes others to yawn - I have experienced it myself. I was being facetious about the "bug" because it's ridiculous to compare an involuntary reaction like yawning to a completely voluntary action like suicide.

What? Bullying is a worldy thing. Turns out being gay also happens across the world. Is Micronesia not part of the the world? I mean, even that purple day was started in Canada. Suicide can be an epedemic like anything else, I don't know why you're trying to say it's not.

You brought up Micronesia as an example of how awareness of suicide can lead to an epidemic (or at least greatly hightened rates) due to the alleged habit of our brains to involuntarily copy the behaviors of others. The thing is - this isn't what caused suicide rates in Micronesia. It far more likesly has to do with an upheaval of large portions of their culture and traditional family structure due to westernization in some areas of the Micronesian islands (the islands that have remained more traditional living have continued with incredibly low suicide rates).

I'm not sure why you're also saying stuff about bullying and homosexuality occurring on Micronesia, as not only was I not disputing the fact, it also has pretty much zero to do with the epidemic, which I never debated the existance of. I'm just saying it's ridiculous to suggest that the cause for such an epidemic is simply increased awareness of suicide, using an example that really doesn't provide your suggestion any support.

I'll respond to Ktar first, you said there was no correlation between suicides causing anymore suicides and even brought up non smoking ads. Let me correct these two points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide

I mean, it comes from California so I don't know how respectable that is, as they're just a bunch of surfer-hippy-pothead-tool people but, there it is.

Also, there has been no decrease in teen smoking even with the increase of ads. Now, in out in Making the Risky Decision there's a study in there in which people who regularly smoke overestimates the damage of smoking. The smoking war is going in the wrong angle as smoking isn't cool but, people who smoke are cool.

The thing is, these kids aren't just getting bullied by other kids. The general climate is one where gay people are made to feel less than human. We are told on a regular basis that we are bound to hell because we are unrepentant sinners because of something about us that is unchangeable. We have laws passed against us all over, from the inability to donate blood all the way to DOMA, DADT, adoption laws and so forth. Having conservative parents or being raised in a socially conservative area compounds the situation all too often. The message that this sends gay people, particularly youth, is that they are inherently bad and less "human" than everyone else. Some people can rise above this relentless abuse from so many parts of society, and some can't, particularly those from locations where they may not have access to helpful resources (like a support group). They are drowning in intolerance.

There isn't really any other minority group that you can compare the LGBT community to because those comparisons don't hold up to scrutiny.

Perhaps this is difficult for a straight person to understand, having never gone through that.

Also, yes, all suicide is saddening and should be addressed. That, however, is absolutely no reason to single out gay people who commit suicide for marginalization. Doing so will make you look like a homophobe (whether you actually are or not).

Actually, that's untrue. It turns out that now, we're more accepting of gays than ever before.

You can easily compare a minority to LGBT, I mean even the Blacks pre-civil rights movement had far worse conditions than you. You have a cake walk compared to them.

I'm just saying you should celebrate suicide awareness for reasons listed above. Unless of course you want your people to die out :/

Actually, that's untrue. It turns out that now, we're more accepting of gays than ever before.

There are a lot of places, particularly more rural areas, where acceptance has a long way to go. To not realize this is, at best, naive.

You can easily compare a minority to LGBT, I mean even the Blacks pre-civil rights movement had far worse conditions than you. You have a cake walk compared to them.

That would still mean the two aren't comparable. Also, this wouldn't apply to me since I'm black and gay. I would get the worst of both worlds.

Also, there are many countries around the world where being gay is a death sentence..literally a death sentence; state sanctioned, state executed death sentence. Maybe we have it better in the States (or the geo-political west in general), but there is a lot of darkness in the world for us.

Now to bring this around back to the OP. I just watched McCance on AC 360 (there's a little more ahead after a commercial break), and he said he will resign. Anderson certainly has made him squirm.

I'll respond to Ktar first, you said there was no correlation between suicides causing anymore suicides and even brought up non smoking ads. Let me correct these two points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide

I mean, it comes from California so I don't know how respectable that is, as they're just a bunch of surfer-hippy-pothead-tool people but, there it is.

That is actually something I was unaware of, and I wish you had used that as an example to start with.

From what I read, though, it occurs when people specifically learn about someone committing suicide - not simply hearing about suicide in a general sense. It would probably be a better idea for Spirit Day to be focused on prevention of bullying and support for the victims, rather than focusing on the suicides themselves. I think that in spirit it is a great idea, but it seems that the results of such efforts can be somewhat counter-intuitive.

Also, there has been no decrease in teen smoking even with the increase of ads. Now, in out in Making the Risky Decision there's a study in there in which people who regularly smoke overestimates the damage of smoking. The smoking war is going in the wrong angle as smoking isn't cool but, people who smoke are cool.

I'd like to know your source for "no decrease in teen smoking", as while I was able to find information about smoking rates decreasing among teens, they were all regional sources so it's tough to say that it's applicable to an overall picture.

However, unless there's been a rise in smoking rates, that does support the point I was trying to make, as the widespread anti-smoking ads haven't caused any increase in smoking by making people aware of it. While people may copy the behaviors of others, sometimes subconciously, there's still a reason for them doing so, and factors that go into why some will and some won't. The catalyst for such a decision could be seeing the behavior, but that doesn't mean that making people aware of an undesirable behavior is going to be a bad idea in every context.

Really though, this line of discussion is kind of moot, as I was using it as a rebuttal to your comparison between yawning and suicide, which was just now made moot by you giving some actual substantiative proof (which still has nothing to do with yawning)

2 pages of replies and not one anhero joke?

The guy is an idiot. He got all worked up and said something stupid, next election he'll probably lose, bing-bang there ya go everyone stop crying. Seriously, Anderson Cooper has devoted like 5 nights to this, since when does the entire nation need to follow one crazy hick's Facebook status updates?

Also, emos ARE like homosexuals, just about the only thing that dinstinguishes an emo from a goth is that emo dudes make out with other dudes. (North American Field Guide to Music-Based Subcultures 2007 ed, p 37). I spent about a week of the Unjust War replying to Shahenshah's surrender terms PMs with links to videos of emos making out, I'm an expert on the subject of emos and homosexuality.

@ Schattenmann The thing is that we know that there are other people thinking exactly what this guy said, so it's not just about him, it's about his attitude (and all who are narrow-minded enough to share it).

In a way, I can see how some might see the media coverage over this incident as overkill. However, until people stop committing suicide because of homophobic/transphobic harassment, light has to be shed on this topic any way possible.