Subtleknifewielder Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 "A regime is a form of fully-competent government, so unless Promised Land teaches their children alternate forms of words we don't see what the problem is. When we fought our war of liberation, we had no government and very little leadership," Alessandro commented."Of course you don't look on conquest as liberation - you have never been held under the rule of oppressive, anti-modern governments. While you have never had to fight for anything in your entire existence, you comment on other people across the globe, threaten them and then wish for their destruction because of actions that were necessary to take. Tell me, Oh Glorious Promised Land, do you know how many casualties this war had?" "Incorrect on more than one count. A regime can be defined as 'a government in power.' nowhere does it have to say it has to be fully-formed, fully competent. You still had to have some sort of leadership to conquer your neighbors--and you have to have some now to take responsibility for the replies you are making to OUR statements." "And you are also incorrect about us never having to fight off invaders, as well as ignorant of our nation's history, if you say that about us." "You don't seem to understand that we are the native citizens. The only reason that we had to "invade" these people was because the only place where it was legal for us to be meeting in groups was outside of the borders - we weren't even allowed to voice our own political opinions. We had to resort to violence, and we had to start it outside of the borders."OOC: I am RPing the native citizens of the land, you know. "Actually...the violence was started in your own borders. Please explain this contradiction." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 "Incorrect on more than one count. A regime can be defined as 'a government in power.' nowhere does it have to say it has to be fully-formed, fully competent. You still had to have some sort of leadership to conquer your neighbors--and you have to have some now to take responsibility for the replies you are making to OUR statements.""And you are also incorrect about us never having to fight off invaders, as well as ignorant of our nation's history, if you say that about us." "Actually...the violence was started in your own borders. Please explain this contradiction." "Four things. 1. We had no government, we had no power or leadership. While men rose in battle to direct others, we had no head of government or any sort of formal government, no recognized representatives or self-proclaimed leadership. 2. Conquering is to overcome by force. From what I remember, one of these nations never put up a fight and in fact went willingly and happily. The other killed several dozen of their own civilians - more than the entire military loss of both sides in the war. Conquering? Technically, but while you are busy criticizing us for fighting a war with a total of seven military deaths, you conveniently overlook the massacre that Tyran put their own citizens through in order to make us look bad. 3. I apologize - we do not study the history of every country. Could you please point out where you fought off invaders that occupied your the land of your people? 4. We had no borders." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Minister Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) 1. We had no government, we had no power or leadership. While men rose in battle to direct others, we had no head of government or any sort of formal government, no recognized representatives or self-proclaimed leadership. OOC: Are you telling me a force made up completely of a rag tag group of freedom fighters with no leadership or chain of command what so ever was able to field tanks by the dozens...F-22's... a navy.... Tupolevs and EMP-freakin' missiles?!?! How were those tanks ordered coherently to the North East? How were those planes able to take off, get maintained, armed etc etc? A navy? Who ordered those missiles to launch and who gave the co-ordinates? How were all these able to work together coherently as a combined arms force and without interference? And to top it all off, only 7 casualties? Seriously, a random bunch of people armed with such weaponry didn't cause any collateral damage to each other? Wouldn't the ordinance dropped by some rogue pilots cause some Friendly fire? Did everyone simultaneously decide to run in the same direction everyone else was? Edited September 10, 2009 by Executive Minister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) 2. Conquering is to overcome by force. From what I remember, one of these nations never put up a fight and in fact went willingly and happily. The other killed several dozen of their own civilians - more than the entire military loss of both sides in the war. Conquering? Technically, but while you are busy criticizing us for fighting a war with a total of seven military deaths, you conveniently overlook the massacre that Tyran put their own citizens through in order to make us look bad. "The only information available comes from the regime that is currently in control of these territories. "It is a fact, readily apparent to all observers, that the Carthaginian regime did in fact initiate two wars of aggression and conquered two legitimate, sovereign states without any documented attempts at peaceful resolution. They claim that that their vanquished enemies were happy to to submit, that they were killing their own people; however we see no independent verification for neither statement. "Simple logic further dictate that 7 deaths in a war is incredibly implausible, and accordingly lends credence to the view that the current Carthaginian regime is in the business of falsifying numbers. This would not be particularly surprising, given that aggressive governments who embark on armed robbery of land from their neighbours could not generally be relied on to be truthful. "In the absence of firm and definitive cause for us to change our views on the new Carthage, Paris will continue to maintain a policy of non-recognition, and we are glad to see Procinctia and Promised Land feels likewise." OOC: No, the native people of AmpaSand's country are the native people of Lavo's protectorate. Aren't Chinese people still Chinese even if they live in Taiwan? OOC: Actually quite a number of them would call themselves Taiwanese, and/or Taiwanese and Chinese. National identities are not always tied to ethnicity, its just that they often coincide. Ampa's citizens could well have developed a separate national identity. Edited September 10, 2009 by Teriethien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 "Four things. 1. We had no government, we had no power or leadership. While men rose in battle to direct others, we had no head of government or any sort of formal government, no recognized representatives or self-proclaimed leadership. 2. Conquering is to overcome by force. From what I remember, one of these nations never put up a fight and in fact went willingly and happily. The other killed several dozen of their own civilians - more than the entire military loss of both sides in the war. Conquering? Technically, but while you are busy criticizing us for fighting a war with a total of seven military deaths, you conveniently overlook the massacre that Tyran put their own citizens through in order to make us look bad. 3. I apologize - we do not study the history of every country. Could you please point out where you fought off invaders that occupied your the land of your people? 4. We had no borders." 1. So a completely rag-tag force overthrew two neigboring regimes without leadership? No coordination whatsoever between the different groups? What an incredible coincidence. 2. Probably propaganda. Few nations ever willingly surrender their sovereignty. As for only seven deaths...for an uncoordinated force that seems an unlikely miracle. 3. We were forced out of our original home--the invaders were too numerous to fight. And since then we have been attacked, with our southern regions devastated by an enemy that never showed its face. 4. So you arose out of nowhere. OOC: You said you RP'd a rebellion in the neighboring province. So you deny you had borders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevz Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Response from Islands of Ice "Whilst we don't agree with Carthage's methods we must accept the fact they now control what they control and we wish them the best with ruling their country and people". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) OOC: Are you telling me a force made up completely of a rag tag group of freedom fighters with no leadership or chain of command what so ever was able to field tanks by the dozens...F-22's... a navy.... Tupolevs and EMP-freakin' missiles?!?!How were those tanks ordered coherently to the North East? How were those planes able to take off, get maintained, armed etc etc? A navy? Who ordered those missiles to launch and who gave the co-ordinates? How were all these able to work together coherently as a combined arms force and without interference? And to top it all off, only 7 casualties? Seriously, a random bunch of people armed with such weaponry didn't cause any collateral damage to each other? Wouldn't the ordinance dropped by some rogue pilots cause some Friendly fire? Did everyone simultaneously decide to run in the same direction everyone else was? OOC: Gebiv had a military in the past. The two weak, unindustrialized nations (I didn't know this at the time) were not taking advantage of old pre-existing Gebivian military hardware, and we did. As for seven casualties, he never fought back or posted any casualties. It is against the rules for me to claim losses for his own soldiers, so I put 7 as it is the number of my own soldiers who died of heat stroke. Neither of the two people attacked fought back, meaning nobody died. "The only information available comes from the regime that is currently in control of these territories."It is a fact, readily apparent to all observers, that the Carthaginian regime did in fact initiate two wars of aggression and conquered two legitimate, sovereign states without any documented attempts at peaceful resolution. They claim that that their vanquished enemies were happy to to submit, that they were killing their own people; however we see no independent verification for neither statement. "Simple logic further dictate that 7 deaths in a war is incredibly implausible, and accordingly lends credence to the view that the current Carthaginian regime is in the business of falsifying numbers. This would not be particularly surprising, given that aggressive governments who embark on armed robbery of land from their neighbours could not generally be relied on to be truthful. "In the absence of firm and definitive cause for us to change our views on the new Carthage, Paris will continue to maintain a policy of non-recognition, and we are glad to see Procinctia and Promised Land feels likewise." OOC: Actually quite a number of them would call themselves Taiwanese, and/or Taiwanese and Chinese. National identities are not always tied to ethnicity, its just that they often coincide. Ampa's citizens could well have developed a separate national identity. "You forget that international peacekeepers were inside both of the countries at the time of the attack and not a single one of them has decided to step up and say that our facts are illegitimate. In fact, Tyran publicly submitted after not firing a single shot - something that you all know happened yet you continue to deny. As for the deaths of civilians made by Tyran, how is it that they managed to produce photographs of legitimately dead civilians killed in their own territory before our soldiers even crossed into the towns the civilians were killed in? An international intelligence agency also quickly and utterly refuted every single complaint alleged against Carthage." OOC: What they call themselves and what they really are are two different things. 1. So a completely rag-tag force overthrew two neigboring regimes without leadership? No coordination whatsoever between the different groups? What an incredible coincidence. 2. Probably propaganda. Few nations ever willingly surrender their sovereignty. As for only seven deaths...for an uncoordinated force that seems an unlikely miracle. 3. We were forced out of our original home--the invaders were too numerous to fight. And since then we have been attacked, with our southern regions devastated by an enemy that never showed its face. 4. So you arose out of nowhere. OOC: You said you RP'd a rebellion in the neighboring province. So you deny you had borders? "1. You don't seem to understand the difference between a government and a general. 2. Tyran publicly admitted to surrendering, and there was no violence in the Republic of Carthage. Yet again, you don't seem to see the difference between a government and military guidance. 3. (see OOC) 4. Again, Promised Land is twisting our words. Until you learn the difference between a border and a homeland, you should stop commenting." OOC: I'd like to see that RP of yours, subtle. I never saw it before and it seems like it'd be interesting to read. I'd also again like to stress that I am not allowed to say how many of his people died, and he never fought back. This means that because of an OOC rule I am prohibited from doing a realistic IC RP, and it is having negative effects. If you continue to harp on about something I have no control over, you will be ignored. Edited September 10, 2009 by Sargun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (Double post) "Carthage, continuing our tradition of openness, invites all doubters to send in teams of experts to disprove the validity of our statements." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) "You forget that international peacekeepers were inside both of the countries at the time of the attack and not a single one of them has decided to step up and say that our facts are illegitimate. In fact, Tyran publicly submitted after not firing a single shot - something that you all know happened yet you continue to deny. As for the deaths of civilians made by Tyran, how is it that they managed to produce photographs of legitimately dead civilians killed in their own territory before our soldiers even crossed into the towns the civilians were killed in? An international intelligence agency also quickly and utterly refuted every single complaint alleged against Carthage." "We don't assume statements from Tyran to be truthful, but at the same time we don't believe that a handful of foreign troops who saw no action could realistically be in possession of all the facts of the situation either. However, this is largely besdies the point. Even if Carthaginian claims are proven correct on this two points, it remains undisputed that Carthage had initiated two wars of aggression without any evidence of attempts at peaceful resolution. There is still no reason to believe that this regime is anything other than violent and militant. "France stands by her stated position." OOC: What they call themselves and what they really are are two different things. OOC: Identities are self-perceived, so what they call themselves is the most important thing. Otherwise we wouldn't have an American nation. Edited September 10, 2009 by Teriethien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 "1. You don't seem to understand the difference between a government and a general.2. Tyran publicly admitted to surrendering, and there was no violence in the Republic of Carthage. Yet again, you don't seem to see the difference between a government and military guidance. 3. (see OOC) 4. Again, Promised Land is twisting our words. Until you learn the difference between a border and a homeland, you should stop commenting." OOC: I'd like to see that RP of yours, subtle. I never saw it before and it seems like it'd be interesting to read. I'd also again like to stress that I am not allowed to say how many of his people died, and he never fought back. This means that because of an OOC rule I am prohibited from doing a realistic IC RP, and it is having negative effects. If you continue to harp on about something I have no control over, you will be ignored. 1. "We understand perfectly...and we also understand that there is sometimes NO difference. See our recent military government for an example. Even a general, a leader, can be defined as a ruler. 2. They may have publicly admitted to surrendering, but that does not mean they wished to, or were happy to do so. 3. OOC: answer IC please. I realize that, but you are going to HAVE to explain it IC. You would have had to at least skirmish with a few resistors, which would have accounted for more then seven casualties. And which Rp are you talking about? Those weren;t all in the same thread./OOC 4. You had to arise from somewhere. you rebelled against the current rulers in the region you came from...a region directly bordering the nations you toppled." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 "It was not a military government. No matter what we say, Promised Land will refuse to believe us and it will turn into a, to put it popularly, 'no u' fight. I also note that they neglected to come and check the facts for themselves when offered to do so. As for France, our nation came into being through a minimal amount of violence. We have shown full diplomatic cooperation since then: the international peacekeepers allowed in and out without delay, freedom of press regarding the war, diplomatic talks with Norway regarding Gibraltar, a small group of investigators still figuring out what happened to Krieg, diplomatic talks with Rebel Army regarding old Krieg lands, and the ongoing talks with Portugal and Spain. It is sad that the people of the world ignored the injustices that were going on in Tyran while they attempt to slander us. This is the same Tyran that slaughtered innocent, unarmed people - you are calling us worse than them?" OOC: Subtle, I don't know if your RP regarding you being forced out of your original homeland even exists, hence why I asked for the RP. Also, No bodies of armed africans have been seen, however, those of unarmed men and women have been rumored to be found. Why did all of you gloss over something Tyran put in his own news reports? :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 "It was not a military government. No matter what we say, Promised Land will refuse to believe us and it will turn into a, to put it popularly, 'no u' fight. I also note that they neglected to come and check the facts for themselves when offered to do so. As for France, our nation came into being through a minimal amount of violence. We have shown full diplomatic cooperation since then: the international peacekeepers allowed in and out without delay, freedom of press regarding the war, diplomatic talks with Norway regarding Gibraltar, a small group of investigators still figuring out what happened to Krieg, diplomatic talks with Rebel Army regarding old Krieg lands, and the ongoing talks with Portugal and Spain. It is sad that the people of the world ignored the injustices that were going on in Tyran while they attempt to slander us. This is the same Tyran that slaughtered innocent, unarmed people - you are calling us worse than them?"OOC: Subtle, I don't know if your RP regarding you being forced out of your original homeland even exists, hence why I asked for the RP. Also, Why did all of you gloss over something Tyran put in his own news reports? :/ "We did not take you up on the offer because, frankly, if we announce we are taking it, what is to stop you from covering up the facts before out team arrives? And there is no proof that Tyran was behind the attacks on their own people. Perhaps they honestly believed you were behind it...perhaps these acts were perpetrated by criminal opportunists. One can never be sure." OOC: not glossing over, just forgot to reply to that. Also, I've never directly RP'd them being forced out of their original homeland, but I have referenced it in a number of posts--some posts more than referencing, stating outright what happened. I believe I stated it most clearly in a thread someone tried to begin some time ago, a thread that was an attempt to organize a common CNRP history. No, not the recent one with the links, but the one that came before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 "If criminal opportunists were behind the attacks, then I find it just as despicable that the government allowed these people to be killed and used it to exploit their own situation without even taking a clear look at the facts. And your excuse for not going on your own fact-finding mission is that we're going to cover it up. Classy, we open ourselves up - as we have done since day 1 - and you accuse us of corruption." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) "We make no accusation, simply stating that if you are innocent of wrongdoing, we will obviously find nothing, but if you are guilty, we will still find nothing. Facts can be distorted--and the same can be said of the criminal acts that they accused you of." Edited September 10, 2009 by Subtleknifewielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 "This is just a lame excuse to keep the myth alive that Carthage is a militant monster." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 (edited) "The truth is, if you had simply organized and asked, You probably could have gotten a lot of what you have now...wuith less cost. It. Was. Conquest. Even you have admitted that." Edited September 11, 2009 by Subtleknifewielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 "No, we would not have. Tyran killed unarmed people protesting (non-violently, I might add) the unfair treatment of their citizens to the government - all evidence pointed to the need for conquest to gain our freedom." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 "No, we would not have. Tyran killed unarmed people protesting (non-violently, I might add) the unfair treatment of their citizens to the government - all evidence pointed to the need for conquest to gain our freedom." "Why don't you display proof of the so-called massacre of nonviolent protesters?" OOC: Seriously, i don;t recall him doing any such thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 OOC: Did I not just post a quote from his own post at the top of this page? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 OOC: Did I not just post a quote from his own post at the top of this page? OOC: And how is that proof that he did it? The question stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 OOC: And how is that proof that he did it? The question stands. OOC: What the $%&@ are you asking me? Are you seriously telling me that his own post is not proof that he did it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 OOC: What the $%&@ are you asking me? Are you seriously telling me that his own post is not proof that he did it? OOC: Yes. When someone RP's, you can't always assume they are RP'ing as the government. Otherwise, where would coup attempts, criminal activity, and other voices of dissent come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 OOC: Yes. When someone RP's, you can't always assume they are RP'ing as the government. Otherwise, where would coup attempts, criminal activity, and other voices of dissent come from? OOC: No, unless specifically specified they are always speaking as the government.. it's always been that way. Whenever someone says something IC that they didn't mean to, there's a reason they go "this person in the government has been fired". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 OOC: No, unless specifically specified they are always speaking as the government.. it's always been that way. Whenever someone says something IC that they didn't mean to, there's a reason they go "this person in the government has been fired". OOC: You're grasping at straws. he did not say he did it anyway, only that it happened, so that logic is not enough to convict him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 (edited) OOC: You're grasping at straws. he did not say he did it anyway, only that it happened, so that logic is not enough to convict him. OOC: I am not grasping at straws. If his military kills unarmed protesters, then he did it. What the $%&@ else is there to understand? Edited September 11, 2009 by Sargun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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