Camp Quest Nedland Opens!

[Ned the Great]

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Camp Quest Nedland Begins Its First Session

CAMP SANDINO - Initially, Camp Quest may seem like any ordinary camp. The campers go swimming, canoeing, and rock climbing. They gather at campfires at night and sing campfire songs while eating smores. However, Camp Quest (which started it's first session in Nedland yesterday) is not any ordinary camp.

Amanda Page, the director of Camp Quest Nedland.

In the words of Amanda Page, the director of Camp Quest Nedland, Camp Quest is a camp that teaches you, "not what to think, but how." The camp, which is based on six camps in North America and one in the British Isles, is designed to provide a non-religious alternative camp to the traditional Christian summer camps in Nedland.

Aside from the camp activities mentioned before, campers will also take part in philisophical discussions. On the opening night, the campers are posed with a challenge: There are two invisible unicorns in the camp ground. They can not be seen, heard, smelt, felt, or tasted, and exist only on faith. The campers are asked to prove that the unicorns do not exist, with a Nedite Dollar signed by famed British atheist Richard Dawkins (a noted supporter of the camp) himself. As well as this, the campers also discuss the scientific method, morality without religion, the existence of god, world religions, and seperation of church and state.

Critics of the camp claim that Camp Quest is indoctrinating children against religion. However, Amanda has disputed this claim.

"Camp Quest was founded to encourage the children to ask questions, find answers themselves, and above all, to tolerate other points of view. I wouldn't say that any of that is indoctrination."

Kaitlyn Stein, one of the campers, also commented that at Camp Quest she, "learned not that there is no god, but that it is okay to not believe in god."

The camp is set to run until August 30th.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Ned the Great

[Subtleknifewielder]

The following is a statement from the Christian Coalition, a representative body formed of leaders of recognized churches in Promised Land.

"While a noble goal...we ask...what is morality when religion is removed? What motivation is there for being 'good' when such things are taken out of the picture?"

[Colerich Krieg]

"Atheists who attempt to brainwash others into not believing religion are just as guilty as the vice-versa."

[Ned the Great]

The following is a statement from the Christian Coalition, a representative body formed of leaders of recognized churches in Promised Land.

"While a noble goal...we ask...what is morality when religion is removed? What motivation is there for being 'good' when such things are taken out of the picture?"

Amanda Page, after being interviewed by CNN, has replied to this statement.

"The motivation for being good is the knowledge that you are doing the right thing. I personally think that it is far better to do good because it is the right thing to do than it is to do good out of fear of hell," Amanda said.

[Subtleknifewielder]

"And we say, what is to define the 'right thing' or 'good' without the guidlines provided in the Bible or other religious writings? The knowledge of what is right is not in itself a motivation for anything--people who know what is right still do wrong things, because they believe they can get away with them. If one has religious beliefs, however, one is less likely to commit these acts, knowing, in their own mind at least, that someone IS watching them and will be holding them accountable."

~Christian Coalition official statement

[Ned the Great]

"And we say, what is to define the 'right thing' or 'good' without the guidlines provided in the Bible or other religious writings? The knowledge of what is right is not in itself a motivation for anything--people who know what is right still do wrong things, because they believe they can get away with them. If one has religious beliefs, however, one is less likely to commit these acts, knowing, in their own mind at least, that someone IS watching them and will be holding them accountable."

~Christian Coalition official statement

Amanda Page has again replied to the Christian Coalition of Promised Land.

"With religious beliefs, one is not any less likely to do the wrong thing. For example, Al Capone, the notorious gangster of 1930's Chicago was a devout Catholic, but he still committed all of the crimes he did. In addition, religions can sometimes encourage certain activities that I would consider immoral, such as sexism or homophobia.

"Now, with regards to morality without religion, it seems obvious to me that ideas such as 'Thou shalt not kill,' and 'Thou shalt not steal,' are not of religious origin. Cavemen in prehistoric times, before religion existed, knew not to kill or steal from each other. They learned that if they worked together and did the best thing for the most amount of people without hurting anyone in the process, then their chances of survival would be better. Slowly, the groups of cavemen became larger as more and more cavemen worked together. Eventually, the first villages were created, then towns, and then cities. In fact, what is civilization but mankind's effort to repeal the law of the jungle? This proves that morality does not have its root in religion, but in evolution.

"I would like to recommend that the Christian Coalition do some research into Secular Humanism. This place is a good start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics#Humanist_ethics" Amanda finished.

In the meantime, the Christian Coalition is not the only group to oppose Camp Quest. Colerich, the Emperor of Krieg, has condemned the camp as indoctrinating children. Ken Ham, the director of the Christian group Answers In Genesis, has also criticized the camp. Page and other proponets of the camp replied by pointing out that they do not teach that God does not exist, just that it is okay to not believe in God.

"The very fact that there is criticism of this camp shows that it is still taboo in our society to criticize religion," Page said.

[KingChris]

The Church frowns upon this new camp, as they have states that their goal is to teach kids "not what to think, but how." In the larger picture, what and how can practically mean the same thing, which may lead to the deception of many people.

[V The King]

"This camp seems to stand as an "alternative" religious ones, yet aims to take clear jabs at religion itself as it attempts to discredit monotheisic religions by equaling it to a belief in an omniscient identity to believing in unicorns, as well as leading children to misinterpret faith and spirituality. It is not a "non-religious" camp - it's plainly anti-religious and seeks to indoctrinate children against religion as a whole, as well as being heavily politically charged. It is just as bad as any Christian, Muslim, Jewish (or whichever) camp that tries to impose their beliefs into children that will almost always comply with what is being said."

Edited August 26, 2009 by V The King

[Vedran]

"I think the camp has a pretty good thing going on. It encourages kids to participate in open discussions. The people saying it's an 'indoctrination camp' or 'anti-religious' are probably just biased or don't understand the camp's mission. The thing with the unicorns is just a creative game to challenge the kids' minds. And after all, it's not anyone is forced to go there...people sure like to overreact." -A citizen of Arctica in response to a news station survey.

[Ned the Great]

"This camp seems to stand as an "alternative" religious ones, yet aims to take clear jabs at religion itself as it attempts to discredit monotheisic religions by equaling it to a belief in an omniscient identity to believing in unicorns, as well as leading children to misinterpret faith and spirituality. It is not a "non-religious" camp - it's plainly anti-religious and seeks to indoctrinate children against religion as a whole, as well as being heavily politically charged. It is just as bad as any Christian, Muslim, Jewish (or whichever) camp that tries to impose their beliefs into children that will almost always comply with what is being said."

"The leader of Viniland and the Vatican clearly don't understand the purpose of the camp. We are very accepting here at the camp. We even have some campers who believe in God (although they are non-religious)! We tolerate all points of view and we would not stoop down to the level of the religious fundamentalists by indoctrinating our children in supernatural propaganda," Amanda Page has said in response to these claims.

"I think the camp has a pretty good thing going on. It encourages kids to participate in open discussions. The people saying it's an 'indoctrination camp' or 'anti-religious' are probably just biased or don't understand the camp's mission. The thing with the unicorns is just a creative game to challenge the kids' minds. And after all, it's not anyone is forced to go there...people sure like to overreact." -A citizen of Arctica in response to a news station survey.

"At least some people are on our side," Amanda Page has said in response to that comment. She then proceeded to thank the news station for their survey.

In the meantime, President Ned of Nedland himself (a noted atheist) has commented on this camp:

"In our day and age when being critical of religion is considered taboo, this is exactly the kind of thing that irreligious children need. Meeting kind and caring people with similar views to them will help greatly in the areas of self esteem and acceptance," President Ned said.

Ned accompanied this statement by donating several thousand dollars to Camp Quest, and announcing that he will make a stop there tomorrow.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Ned the Great

[Subtleknifewielder]

"With religious beliefs, one is not any less likely to do the wrong thing. For example, Al Capone, the notorious gangster of 1930's Chicago was a devout Catholic, but he still committed all of the crimes he did. In addition, religions can sometimes encourage certain activities that I would consider immoral, such as sexism or homophobia.

"Now, with regards to morality without religion, it seems obvious to me that ideas such as 'Thou shalt not kill,' and 'Thou shalt not steal,' are not of religious origin. Cavemen in prehistoric times, before religion existed, knew not to kill or steal from each other. They learned that if they worked together and did the best thing for the most amount of people without hurting anyone in the process, then their chances of survival would be better. Slowly, the groups of cavemen became larger as more and more cavemen worked together. Eventually, the first villages were created, then towns, and then cities. In fact, what is civilization but mankind's effort to repeal the law of the jungle? This proves that morality does not have its root in religion, but in evolution.

"I would like to recommend that the Christian Coalition do some research into Secular Humanism. This place is a good start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics#Humanist_ethics" Amanda finished.

"Maybe he was...but on the whole, he was not the rule. Studies have indicated that those who truly believe they are being observed are less likely to break a law than those who believe they can get away with it."

"If laws and morality come from evolution...then where does the idea that the strong should hold up the weak, rather than exploit them 'for the good of society' come from? Mankind is not a generous species by nature."

[Colerich Krieg]

"There is a huge gap between Anti-Religon and Non-Religon. The Latter is perfectly fine and acceptable in my eyes, while the first just will stir hate and discrimination into the youth."

[V The King]

"The leader of Viniland and the Pope clearly don't understand the purpose of the camp. We are very accepting here at the camp. We even have some campers who believe in God (although they are non-religious)! We tolerate all points of view and we would not stoop down to the level of the religious fundamentalists by indoctrinating our children in supernatural propaganda," Amanda Page has said in response to these claims."

"Viniland has no Pope or recognize anyone claiming to be such, so we're unsure why you are making reference to him.

Before we continue, mind if we ask what is the age range for the camp?"

[KingChris]

"The Pope clearly doesn't understand the purpose of the camp. We are very accepting here at the camp. We even have some campers who believe in God (although they are non-religious)! We tolerate all points of view and we would not stoop down to the level of the religious fundamentalists by indoctrinating our children in supernatural propaganda," Amanda Page has said in response to these claims.

We currently don't have a Pope. We are in sede vacante.

[Ned the Great]

We currently don't have a Pope. We are in sede vacante.

OOC: Whoops! Edited.

"Viniland has no Pope or recognize anyone claiming to be such, so we're unsure why you are making reference to him.

Before we continue, mind if we ask what is the age range for the camp?"

IC: "The age range is from 7 to 17. Anyone older may apply to be a counselor."

"Maybe he was...but on the whole, he was not the rule. Studies have indicated that those who truly believe they are being observed are less likely to break a law than those who believe they can get away with it."

"If laws and morality come from evolution...then where does the idea that the strong should hold up the weak, rather than exploit them 'for the good of society' come from? Mankind is not a generous species by nature."

"Please show me these studies," Page replied, "I have never heard that religious beliefs play any strong role in preventing someone from doing wrong. Even if that is true, secular humanism will keep the positive effects of religion, while eliminating the negative.

"The belief that the strong should hold up the weak comes from evolution as well. In cavemen tribes they discovered that if the kept more members of their tribe alive (even the weak ones) then more members of the tribe would reproduce and thus increase the tribe's population. While mankind has flaws, it actually is a generous species by nature: without our generosity, we would never have survived the ice ages," Page finished.

"There is a huge gap between Anti-Religon and Non-Religon. The Latter is perfectly fine and acceptable in my eyes, while the first just will stir hate and discrimination into the youth."

"Here at Camp Quest, we teach that it is wrong to discriminate against those who are different from us. We go out of our way to make it clear that intolerance is wrong. I don't think that any camper here would do anything cruel to a religious person. In addition, here at the camp we do not focus on the negatives of religion, although we do discuss that to an extent. Instead, the focus is on the positives of having a scientific mind and being skeptical," Page said.

In the meantime, President Ned visited the Camp at around 11:45 today. After eating lunch with the campers and counselors, Ned then gave a lecture on the history of Nedland and the atrocities caused by religion in the history of the nation. He finished up with these words:

"Children, you are truly making history here today. You are proving that one can be a moral person without God. I have complete confidence that you will change the world. Keep up the great work!" - President Ned

In addition, Britian's The Daily Quail has run an article on Camp Quest.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Ned the Great

[Colerich Krieg]

the focus is on the positives of having a scientific mind and being skeptical..

"I fail to see how being religious bares you from having a Skeptical, Scientific mind. I, and many others are living proof that Religious peoples can still be thinkers.. Many famous people in the past, as well."

[Teriethien]

As an enlightened nation France believes that morality and ethics are completely independent of religion, and that whilst religious beliefs are personal human rights, so is a lack thereof. Consequentely we applaud the efforts of Camp Quest in providing an alternative to religious summer camps.

[Ned the Great]

"I fail to see how being religious bares you from having a Skeptical, Scientific mind. I, and many others are living proof that Religious peoples can still be thinkers.. Many famous people in the past, as well."

"While you may be skeptical and scientific regarding certain matters while also being religious, it is important to be skeptical of everything, even God," Amanda Page replied, "If I may quote the great scientist, Carl Sagan, 'If we are not able to ask skeptical questions, to interrogate those who tell us that something is true, to be skeptical of those in authority, then we're up for grabs.'"

As an enlightened nation France believes that morality and ethics are completely independent of religion, and that whilst religious beliefs are personal human rights, so is a lack thereof. Consequentely we applaud the efforts of Camp Quest in providing an alternative to religious summer camps.

Camp Quest thanks France for their support.

"It is good that some support us despite the cruel allegations being made against Camp Quest," Amanda Page said.

[Subtleknifewielder]

"Please show me these studies," Page replied, "I have never heard that religious beliefs play any strong role in preventing someone from doing wrong. Even if that is true, secular humanism will keep the positive effects of religion, while eliminating the negative.

"The belief that the strong should hold up the weak comes from evolution as well. In cavemen tribes they discovered that if the kept more members of their tribe alive (even the weak ones) then more members of the tribe would reproduce and thus increase the tribe's population. While mankind has flaws, it actually is a genenerous species by nature: without our generosity, we would never have survived the ice ages," Page finished.

OOC: Can't use the studies, as they were done relatively recently...and I didn't write down where I read them.

IC: "Is it a generous species? Then why is there war? Why is there crime? Why is their racial prejudice? You cannot blame these things on religion, or society. Religions and societies are made up of human beings."

"If one should be skeptical about everything...one should also be skeptical about Macro-Evolution."

[Sabioviejo]

In a recent poll Sverige people expressed their opinion. One of the polled citizens stated the following; "Freedom of religion means that both religious and non religious people may hold camps, where they can teach whatever they want, as long as it doesn't go against the law. There is no use in discussing the camp if its not breaking the law."

[Ned the Great]

OOC: Can't use the studies, as they were done relatively recently...and I didn't write down where I read them.

IC: "Is it a generous species? Then why is there war? Why is there crime? Why is their racial prejudice? You cannot blame these things on religion, or society. Religions and societies are made up of human beings."

"If one should be skeptical about everything...one should also be skeptical about Macro-Evolution."

"War, crime, and racism exist because, even though human beings are generally good and generous, we are flawed as well. People can make mistakes and get carried away with themselves, but overall most people try to do the right thing. I personally believe that eventually war and crime will disappear. I believe this because so far the human race has made a lot of progress regarding morality. We have eliminated slavery and most sexism and racism. What's to say we won't eliminate war, crime, and poverty in the future? The very fact that humans have come this far in getting rid of injustice proves that we are naturally good," Amanda Page replied, "As for Macro-Evolution, evidence is overwhelming in that area. There are hundreds of thousands of fossils which have been found that confirm evolution. In addition, scientists have been able to watch macro-evolution occurring today in viruses (which have much shorter lifespans than humans and can thus evolve more rapidly)."

In a recent poll Sverige people expressed their opinion. One of the polled citizens stated the following; "Freedom of religion means that both religious and non religious people may hold camps, where they can teach whatever they want, as long as it doesn't go against the law. There is no use in discussing the camp if its not breaking the law."

"The very reason people are talking about this camp is because they are shocked that anyone would dare to criticize religion, which is considered an almost untouchable area in society," Amanda Page has said in reply to this statement.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Ned the Great

[Subtleknifewielder]

"War, crime, and racism exist because, even though human beings are generally good and generous, we are flawed as well. People can make mistakes and get carried away with themselves, but overall most people try to do the right thing. I personally believe that eventually war and crime will disappear. I believe this because so far the human race has made a lot of progress regarding morality. We have eliminated slavery and most sexism and racism. What's to say we won't eliminate war, crime, and poverty in the future? The very fact that humans have come this far in getting rid of injustice proves that we are naturally good," Amanda Page replied, "As for Macro-Evolution, evidence is overwhelming in that area. There are hundreds of thousands of fossils which have been found that confirm evolution. In addition, scientists have been able to watch macro-evolution occurring today in viruses (which have much shorter lifespans than humans and can thus evolve more rapidly)."

"So, people want to do the right thing...Hitler, The Confederate States of America and Slavery, tribal wars in Africa...these sure sound like progress to us...how about you?"

"And we beg to differ...fossils that have been discvered, the so-called missing links, have all-too-often been disproved."

"The cave-man and his jutting jaw? He wouldn't have been able to eat with the jaw the way it is...it's simply been put in the wrong place by scientists. The skulls look entirely human when the jaw is put in the proper place."

"The Archaeopteryx, supposedly a transition between lizard and bird? The 'justification' for this is that it has teeth and claws. So no other bird today has teeth? No other bird has claws? Obviously the scientists aren't doing their research. Scales are vastly different from feathers. Whereas scales is an armor formed from skin that folds over itself, feathers are grown from follicles in the skin, more like hair in mammals than a reptile's scales."

Edited August 28, 2009 by Subtleknifewielder

[V The King]

"The very reason people are talking about this camp is because they are shocked that anyone would dare to criticize religion, which is considered an almost untouchable area in society," Amanda Page has said in reply to this statement.

"No one cares if you criticize religion or not - what people care about is that you claim your camp to be "non-religious" while in fact trying to impose a mindset that clearly reeks of anti-religiosity (which should be obvious by the camp's description). Why don't you just come out and say that your camp is Atheist or whatever rather than trying to ride on semantics and play the prosecuted victim? It's a private camp, so you can teach the kids whatever - but don't claim it to actually be something else."

Edited August 28, 2009 by V The King

[Ned the Great]

"So, people want to do the right thing...Hitler, The Confederate States of America and Slavery, tribal wars in Africa...these sure sound like progress to us...how about you?"

"And we beg to differ...fossils that have been discvered, the so-called missing links, have all-too-often been disproved."

"The cave-man and his jutting jaw? He wouldn't have been able to eat with the jaw the way it is...it's simply been put in the wrong place by scientists. The skulls look entirely human when the jaw is put in the proper place."

"The Archaeopteryx, supposedly a transition between lizard and bird? The 'justification' for this is that it has teeth and claws. So no other bird today has teeth? No other bird has claws? Obviously the scientists aren't doing their research. Scales are vastly different from feathers. Whereas scales is an armor formed from skin that folds over itself, feathers are grown from follicles in the skin, more like hair in mammals than a reptile's scales."

"Like I said before, we humans can make mistakes. But the fact that we are learning from those mistakes shows that we are good. As for missing links, the theory of evolution states that ALL life forms are transitional forms. Therefore, all fossils are transitional forms. Geologists have discovered hundreds of distinct, progressing variations in fossils. A few hoaxes does not disprove a theory.

"When you are speaking of the jutting jaw caveman, you are no doubt referring to the Heidelberg Man, are you not? I think you'll see that the jaw of the Heidelberg Man is much larger and more robust than a normal human jaw.

"The Archaeopteryx not only has teeth (which no modern birds posess), but it also has several other features which are more similar to the features of a dinosaur than of a bird. For example, Archaeopteryx has a long and bony tail and that it has free and flexible hands which are not fused to the wings as in birds. For more information, see this video:

" Amanda Page said in yet another reply to the Christian Coalition statements.

"No one cares if you criticize religion or not - what people care about is that you claim your camp to be "non-religious" while in fact trying to impose a mindset that clearly reeks of anti-religiosity (which should be obvious by the camp's description). Why don't you just come out and say that your camp is Atheist or whatever rather than trying to ride on semantics and play the prosecuted victim? It's a private camp, so you can teach the kids whatever - but don't claim it to actually be something else."

"We do not say that the camp is atheist because it is not atheist. While most of the campers may be atheists, you do not have to be atheist to go to Camp Quest. You don't even have to be non-religious. In addition, we do not dogmatically teach atheism at the camp, we teach the scientific method," Amanda Page replied.

[Subtleknifewielder]

"Like I said before, we humans can make mistakes. But the fact that we are learning from those mistakes shows that we are good. As for missing links, the theory of evolution states that ALL life forms are transitional forms. Therefore, all fossils are transitional forms. Geologists have discovered hundreds of distinct, progressing variations in fossils. A few hoaxes does not disprove a theory.

"When you are speaking of the jutting jaw caveman, you are no doubt referring to the Heidelberg Man, are you not? I think you'll see that the jaw of the Heidelberg Man is much larger and more robust than a normal human jaw.

"The Archaeopteryx not only has teeth (which no modern birds posess), but it also has several other features which are more similar to the features of a dinosaur than of a bird. For example, Archaeopteryx has a long and bony tail and that it has free and flexible hands which are not fused to the wings as in birds. For more information, see this video:

" Amanda Page said in yet another reply to the Christian Coalition statements.

The support for the Heidelburg man consists of one jaw, the lower jaw at that. yet Scientists assume from that one and only find that this is a 'missing link?' do we need to say how ridiculous that sounds?

The Archaeopteryx also has something unique to birds, and birds alone. A wishbone.

Also, there are not "hundreds of thousands' of fossils that support evolution. At most there are a few thousand that seem to support the theory.

OOC: Also a good movie to watch on this subject is the Documentary "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" hosted by Ben Stein.