Bavaricar

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284700990' post='2456420'] The original purpose of an alliance is growth and protection. Running an alliance like a club simply interferes with that purpose and the statistics are there to demonstrate that. I apologize, but as a former Voxian irrational moralism was a huge problem philosophically for our cause. Perhaps I need to find better terminology. [/quote] Perhaps part of your problem is you cannot say the word moralism without adding an adjective like [i]illogical [/i]or [i]irrational[/i].

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284698398' post='2456369'] We must ask ourselves what is the purpose of an alliance? An alliance that thrives seeks to eliminate internal conflict and neutralize external conflict. Thus an alliance looks out for its, and its members self interests. There is nothing wrong with that. But on the other hand, we can look at the effects of the opposite philosophies the two alliances hold on the world. On the one hand, Pacifican Francoist ideology has enriched intellectual debate and discussion, provided safety to countless red nations, stabilized world politics during the Age of Order, purged "lulz" and immature actors from the world stage, and provided the greatest world economy we have ever known. Whereas Anarchist philosophy, which many of our esteemed colleagues espouse, has brought us the armageddon war ushered in an age of darkness, a great depression of nation strength and active nations, a return of the lulz and rejection of reasoned argument, political instability, decreased average intelligence per debate, a cultural decline and the weakening of the safety of innocent red nations simply to score shots against NPO. [/quote] Alliances come in many forms. You are right that most alliances today care only about guarding against or even eliminating threats to their security. We also must allow that some alliances are formed not exclusively for member economic or military security at all, but for shared principles that transcend short-term military or economic security considerations. What your alliance and most others cannot seem to comprehend or accept is any consideration of altruism, outside of strictly realpolitik considerations. As for the alternatives as you framed them, this is a compelling response and, yes, if these things were as you represented them, I would begrudgingly prefer your Order over this Anarchy. However, many of the observations you share here are inaccurate representations. Perhaps you simply lost me when you included "moralism" alongside your opening salvo on [i]barbarism, terrorism and anarchy[/i]. As I said earlier, one of those things is not like the others. Keep on keeping on. You've come far. Eventually I hope you'll see the full light.

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284696886' post='2456355'] In IAA I always respected and admired Mushroom Kingdom and the proficiency they have with national development and nuclear warfare. Militarily and economically, they were an inspiration, but the same cannot be said intellectually speaking and the reason why is showing in this discussion. [/quote] The MK has a few philosophers, but most are mere rhetoricians or even court jesters... Or perhaps they play those parts here for fear of being ostracized or banished from their obscurantist home? In the end, however, very little divides your alliance and theirs. Both the NPO and the MK, as well as most of our known alliances are mere survivalists that care not a wit for anything but themselves.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284693863' post='2456297'] I worry for the mental health of those who willingly relinquish their sovereignty in the name of "freedom". [/quote] What? Or should I have given you time to edit this to be comprehensible? [quote] Freedom is the power to think and speak and act without fear of reprisal. [/quote] How does this follow what I think it is you are trying to say in the first sentence? [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1284694252' post='2456307'] Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. [/quote] Ah, you're high and not as young as I was thinking. Carry on.

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1284693342' post='2456288'] Perhaps the whole point is to not buy into the intellectual masturbation that is writing unnecessarily long and verbose posts about how smart one is? Responding to it on its own terms would involve buying into it regardless of whether I'm agreeing with it or not. [/quote] I did not find it unnecessarily long. You also should have more confidence in yourself and your abilities. I, for one, would like to hear what a shroom has to say about the state of liberty today, especially as it responds to the challenge offered by the OP. All I know of the shrooms is you very actively promote the spread of chaos and anarchy, yet you also support strict order in other areas of your foreign policy. Perhaps now you can see why I am so curious about more than a mocking response from you.

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1284692610' post='2456276'] Am I the only one who gets a bit nauseated when people make these attempts to discuss how ~*~seasoned and philosophical~*~ they are? [/quote] I'm more amused by the people who think mocking someone is better than answering what they have to say. The OP is riddled with contradictions. Perhaps you could use your nauseous intellect to point them out for us?

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1284675318' post='2456045'] I'm noticing in times of peace and unique situations that arise as time goes on, the need for people to over analyze any given situation to illustrate or explain a point. Whatever happened to simplicity in language and linearity of thought? It seems today everything is circular and nothing appears to be so simple anymore. Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation and perspective, but it was never quite [i]this[/i] bad. Is anyone noticing this trend? It's not that it's new, it's just getting worse. [/quote] With respect to World Affairs(IC) and Alliance Politics(IC), to me it seems to be more a case of it takes at least ten pages of any given thread to get a few sentences of real analysis. That's when that circular thing you mentioned pops up, since as soon as a real point is made, it usually is not answered but, instead, followed by a bunch of "no u" replies. In the name of brevity, please don't confuse a large quantity of posting with over-analysis, let alone complexity.

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284668476' post='2455969'] Throughout history our world has been troubled by a celebration of barbarism, the romanticization of terrorism, anarchy and illogical moralism. [/quote] One of these things is not like the others. But yes, real freedoms are only possible with order.

[quote name='Heinlander' timestamp='1284525414' post='2454462'] The intruder strips him off his sidearm, ammunition, rations and, last of all, his cigarettes and a silver lighter with the words "UOKMB Unified Military" emblazoned on its finish. [/quote] I hear those are really nice lighters. Would you be interested in selling it? Or I could trade you an MK spy issue lighter I picked up a few weeks ago. [img]http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3756/cameralighter.jpg[/img] [size="1"]/nice write-up again[/size]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1284591297' post='2455129'] I maintain that if you have nothing to hide, you have no reason to not have your house searched. [/quote] I'm starting to like you. Well played.

My hat's off to ktarthan for being so cooperative and sharing his initial investigative results. I simply cannot fathom what level of crazed IC/OOC blurred vision has led some other people ([i]and not a one of them is a member of the GOONS[/i]) to take this game so seriously that they automatically question Methrage's OOC integrity here.

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284518721' post='2454296'] We're the ally that requested MK do it. You need to read what YOU responded to a bit more carefully. [/quote] Well, duh? Are you always this aggressive?

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284518401' post='2454294'] STA was well respected long before we were allied to MK. No one would be, or has laughed at us for this. Well. No one but a couple of Legionnaires. I think we'll survive. [/quote] You need to read what I responded to more carefully and not how the goons are spinning this. You indicated earlier that you would permit the MK to spy on the rebel, but not the goons. Pardon me for characterizing this as you laughing at the goons, I have to have dreams.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1284517407' post='2454272'] How dare MK honor a sensible request from a valued ally. Point poorly made, Bavaricar. [/quote] Where you see a sensible request, I see an alliance that would be laughed at were it not for the influence of the MK. Where you see a valued ally for the MK, I see cement boots.

The real problem here is the MK, and all alliances that wield their power like we see it on display here. They learn just a little too well from their past masters. It's a sad cycle. Noble effort, the rebel.

[quote name='Ghuxalia' timestamp='1284428840' post='2453128'] I just wrote a rant, but then I realized it would just fall on deaf ears, and it's nearly as fun as playing along with your little game. [/quote] Well, let it out bro! You can't keep that stuff pent up. edit, to Methrage, no need to remove it at this point, but if people start getting expelled or the text gets changed from its intent, yes.

[quote name='Ghuxalia' timestamp='1284428040' post='2453105'] Seconded! [/quote] I withdraw the motion. Also, it appears that we are back to where we started. The original document obviously needs some work, so I now request that my signature be removed so that some day I might sign another document that is similar but not so open to death by der lulz. /buzzkill edit: also what Methrage posted above is accurate.

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1284427522' post='2453085'] I vote yes in the motion to rip Ghuxalia's tongue out but not to cut off his index fingers. [/quote] <thinking> [quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1284427526' post='2453086'] Why has my membership not yet been approved. I bring much to this glorious crusade. [/quote] Just sign it while no one is looking.

[quote name='Ghuxalia' timestamp='1284427199' post='2453079'] I vote no. FILIBUSTERED! [/quote] I move that we rip Ghuxalia's tongue out and cut off his index fingers, but not expel him.

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1284427027' post='2453075'] I would like to propose an amendment to the charter. All charter amendments must secure a majority vote rather than a unanimous vote in order to prevent future filibusters from holding up the libertarian policy process. [/quote] Seconded.

[quote name='Ghuxalia' timestamp='1284426750' post='2453069'] RV and I both vote no. And Nicolai has no vote. [/quote] Alrighty then. The amendment to strike the expulsion language has failed. Should any signatory be expelled, here's advance notice of the withdrawal of my signature... unless you expel me first.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1284426105' post='2453055'] [color="#0000FF"]I have no objection to be Nexus having more than one signature so long as it only has one vote, so you've claimed as of late. Whether you like it or not you have been voted out of LANCE by a majority of the signatories.[/color] [/quote] Why should alliances be given any vote? Also, no, he has not been voted out. BTW, we also have a vote before us to strike the expulsion language in the document. So far the vote of the [i]current [/i]signatories is as follows Ghuxalia - yes Methrage - yes... I think Mandolus - yes Bavaricar - yes Nicolai - ??? Rebel Virginia- ??? We also have pending members, so your vote and Nicolai's are needed to move one way or the other since it has to be unanimous.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1284425444' post='2453034'] Why does Nicholai get a vote? Nicholai's signature wasn't on your treaty until after both RV and Bavaricar joined. That means either he's just a part of KN's signature and between the two of you you still only get one vote, or you forced his name onto the document without getting the proper 2/3 vote required to admit new members. Either way, he doesn't get a vote. In addition to this, the previous 2/3 vote to remove you should have been valid. [/quote] There was never such a vote and no RV did not lie. RV and I had a humorous miscommunication via im and decided to roll with it. Also, pending the outcome of the charter amendment vote, I also vote to admit anyone who signs this document.

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284424261' post='2453003'] After we find out what RV thinks of changing the expulsion clause and if he's willing to abide by it, then I'll maybe reconsider. [/quote] The only wild card here is RV and there is not a thing we can say will change his mind one way or the other. As for making sure anyone will abide by it, that's not something that anyone can guarantee. A signature is a compact between one person and the document, not us. //bbl

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284424118' post='2452998'] You're part of an alliance that encourages tech raiding, which goes against libertarian principles. [/quote] That's for him to reconcile, not us.