Swanfield

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1282037547' post='2419347'] I really can't grasp the concept of this...STA decided that they were going to do something about \m/ declaring soverignty over GGA. \m/ dropped that claim. MM claimed to STA that he was going to nuke one of their members. The MoFA of \m/ said MM had informed him that he was going to go rogue on STA and that he left the alliance. MM gets donkey punched into anarchy by STA. \m/ tries to play the tough guy with PC's backing. Pez brings bigger guns to the fight. \m/ pretty much folds their tent and walks away. And I honestly never though I'd see the day an \m/ember tries to claim moral victories. [/quote] You are twisting the scenario in your own words, Merrie Melodies said he was thinking of going rogue on STA and STA jumped the gun before he made up his mind. The MoFA's actions were overruled by Emperor Marx thus making the point moot. STA illegally attacked Merrie Melodies even before they officially got "permission" to do so by our MoFA which again, was overruled. We knew whom STA's allies were beforehand we started the negotiations and it wouldn't have changed a thing if they weren't present in the room.

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1282036771' post='2419334'] I saw no admission of guilt, I saw a compromise. The two are not connected. If they believed they were wrong to of attacked him you would of seen them agreeing to pay reps. [/quote] That may be, however if an unaligned nation was threatening to attack a member of STA and they attacked him before he had a chance to do so, they wouldn't have peaced out with that nation if another alliance demanded that they did so yet they did so with Merrie Melodies despite the fact that they claimed he was unaligned and was a "rogue". Just because the fact that they didn't pay reparations doesn't mean that they weren't wrong. They may not admit to it because they are too proud but the fact stands that they lost the overall moral victory.

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1282036540' post='2419327'] The fact that you were countered and brought to accept a peace offering instead of obtaining reparations is an indicator of failure in itself. [/quote] I refer you to Caliph, our triumvirate. Our aim was to achieve peace for all involved and we started with a higher demands to be able to meet the level of terms we desired. Back to you.

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1282036067' post='2419320'] Very....very far from it. [/quote] STA peacing out with Merrie Melodies was basically an admission that they were wrong to attack him in the first place so I would say I am correct in stating that we won the moral victory.

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1282035678' post='2419306'] Really? If you haven't noticed, this has been resolved. If you wish to continue the argument, I direct you to my post [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90762&view=findpost&p=2419209"]here[/url]. I believe that covers the next several pages of posts. [/quote] If you claim he was unaligned and was a rogue then why did you agree to peace out with Merrie Melodies, you are contradicting yourself.

[quote name='Vladimir' timestamp='1282035578' post='2419305'] I can't applaud STA enough for this move (or for their victory in negotiations). [/quote] STA did not achieve any victory of sort. They did a very silly thing by attacking our member and despite the fact that they didn't pay any reparations, I'd say we won the moral victory.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282034845' post='2419284'] That was a rather dumb thing to say... [/quote] Not as dumb as violating our sovereignty by attacking a member of our alliance for "rogue" actions when he hadn't committed any yet.

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1282034519' post='2419277'] Did you seriously just make that threat here? Really? [/quote] Do something about it then. Note that I haven't left my alliance and that I haven't taken any actions yet in case you are confused again..

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1282033607' post='2419266'] [02:51] <~EmperorMarx> immediate peace with MM [02:51] <~EmperorMarx> The two nations [02:52] <~EmperorMarx> Who attacked him will be dealt with 04[02:52] <&Citizenkane> incidentally, pezstar [02:52] <~EmperorMarx> Whether or not they are ZI'd really depends on your attitude in here That tells me that EM was saying that the two STA members who attacked MM would be attacked and possibly ZI'd. That tone changed quite a bit when Pez's friends showed up. [/quote] I didn't say which offer I was referring to, did I? My bad then.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1282033342' post='2419265'] Notice you aren't getting compensation. [/quote] That may be, however I am sure we will leave it as a debt we'll collect when we need to.

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1282033095' post='2419259'] Ummm I see a definite change of tone. Log starts out with CK threatening war, Marx speaking of pummelling STA. Then you have Marx talking tough about dealing with the STA nations, deciding if they'd be ZI'd or not based on Pez's actions, STA paying reps etc. Then Penguin and two MK members come in and that tough talk goes right out the window. [/quote] Our offer was that they peaced out with Merrie Melodies and that they paid us compensation. We didn't demand anything else.

[quote name='savethecheerleader' timestamp='1282032903' post='2419254'] No, I'm just alluding to some of \m/'s more recent diplomatic masterstrokes. [/quote] Care to expand on that and specifically why we are mastered in the diplomacy arts of "racial slurs"

[quote name='savethecheerleader' timestamp='1282032615' post='2419249'] Indeed. HoT isn't anywhere close to understanding such masterful diplomatic techniques as the Advanced Racial Slur. [/quote] Are you suggesting that we are an alliance of racists?

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1282031503' post='2419230'] And yet \m/ won't defend him, they just cry out here on the forums. Such cowardice. [/quote] We sort out issues with other alliances diplomatically instead of jumping the gun. Sorry that you're not quite mature yet to understand the fundamentals of diplomacy.

[quote name='lakerzz8' timestamp='1282030554' post='2419201'] Edit: It's more like your wife saying she'll cheat on you and you breaking up with her before she actually does. [/quote] She didn't get hurt in the process whereas your alliance actually did inflict harm by attacking Merrie Melodies. Nice try but the analogy doesn't fit.

[quote]He had just informed us that \m/ was cancelling their attacktorate, he is in your gov, and as such it was an entirely logical conclusion to make that a gov member had the power to tell us whether or not Merrie had informed \m/ that he was leaving. I don't understand why executive powers are needed to tell us that Merrie was leaving.[/quote] A MoIA according to our charter does not have the power to cancel treaties and Merrie Melodies did not leave \m/ and I do not know why CSM said he did. Heck he didn't even change his AA yet. [quote]Back already is he? You might want to ask NSO about accepting rogues, apparently it's frowned upon.[/quote] He didn't come back, he never even left in the first place. [quote] Yes, he did. That is what he said. Maybe he didn't mean it, but that's hardly our fault.[/quote] No he didn't, he said he was thinking about it and not at any point did he confirm he was going to go rogue on STA. [quote]We attacked someone based on a direct threat to one of our members.[/quote] No, you attacked someone based on threats that didn't occur yet. It's for example, your wife saying she is going to kill you after an argument and then you go kill her because you thought she was being serious. [quote] Since when is attacking an unaligned threat illegal? Also, I don't think the word illegal can even be used here. Illegal according to who?[/quote] He didn't leave and thus is still aligned to \m/ as his Alliance Affliction states.

I'm going to clarify a few things to make it clear. Chief Savage Man does not have the executive powers to act on behalf of \m/ as a triumvirate in their absence. Merrie Melodies is still a member of \m/. Merrie Melodies did not at any point confirm he was going to go rogue on STA. STA attacked someone based on an assumption. STA illegally attacked someone.

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1282028813' post='2419138'] Shall we look at the chain of events? 1. You tell us you're [b]thinking[/b] about going rogue on Boomhower. 2. We confront someone who doesnt have any real government powers about this. 3. A member of \m/ confirms that you left . 4. We attack you. Tell me where we went wrong there. It's not our responsibility to know which of your gov members to trust. [/quote] There, I fixed the chain of events for you.

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1282028504' post='2419125'] Yet he was high enough ranking to inform Pez of the cancellation of \m/'s attackterate? [/quote] He didn't have the power to do that either.

[quote name='lakerzz8' timestamp='1282028553' post='2419127'] But one of your regular members seems to have access to gov logs and is saying the logs Pez posted are not complete. Why doesn't he prove they are not complete and post full logs since he seems to have read them and has full access to your gov. [/quote] This is the line above the section of logs that Pez posted, <Merrie_Melodies> Peztar I may drop the AA and rogue so until I decide This is going to be fun watching you squirm your way out of this one.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1282028230' post='2419113'] Try again. [/quote] Chief isn't a triumvirate, and has very little power in junior government. I suggest you think again. Merrie Melodies is [u][b]still[/b][/u] a \m/ember.

[quote name='Edifice' timestamp='1282028112' post='2419106'] "I am going to nuke STA in three days, let me sit on this AA while I gear up for war" If he left the alliance, as indicated in pezstar's logs, then he is a ghost. Who announced his intention of going rogue. Not really sure what is so offensive about STA's action in this particular event [/quote] No, it was "selective" posting of logs. He left out bits to make it look all rosy and dandy but the reality is that STA committed unwarranted attacks on one of our members.

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1282027870' post='2419092'] Your government confirmed he had left. I don't see how you think you deserve reparations for attacks on a non-member. [/quote] This is incorrect, he did not leave.

[quote name='SpectreTehDestroyer' timestamp='1282027831' post='2419090'] You are government? ..And my AXE! [/quote] No but I am pretty sure they take a similar view to mine, I have to say I didn't entirely agree with my own alliance raiding GGA but I stand by them because they are my fellow comrades and friends and i cannot stand by while watching a comrade of mine get attacked by a rogue alliance based on words alone. He didn't take any action and wasn't going to.

Cease your unwarranted attacks on Merrie Melodies immediately, first of all he hadn't gone "rogue" on STA, secondly he's still in \m/, thirdly he was just posturing. I thought STA were trying to be moralistic yet they tarnish themselves by pre-emptively attacking someone. We'll be expecting reparations.