Canaris

[b]Nation[/b]: Republic of Khislav [b]Capital City[/b]: Norvagrad [b]Major Religions[/b]: Christian [b]Population[/b]: 172,000,000 [b]Primary Language[/b]: German, Russian [b]Government[/b]: Totalitarian Democratic Republic [b]History[/b]: An ancient region of sprawling, dark forests and endless white beaches on the coasts, the southern oblasts are also dominated by mountain. Steppe is prevalent northwards. The people of Khislav recognize seafarers and warriors as their ancestors; migrants who came to what was then known as the realm of the Khi. Over time the invasive Slavs overran the indigenous cultures and settled down. For countless centuries now they have called Khislav home and show no sign of surrendering to the demands of outsiders. They rule their lands as they see fit, looking down their noses at many international treaties. They were slower than most other developed nations to take their place in the 'first world' but proclaim proudly that they accomplished it with a minimum of outside interference. When the grip of socialism faded from the continent's eastern shores, the fathers of modern Khislav stepped forward. The city of Norvagrad is famous for it's large Germanic population. Though this causes much tension in the local politics of the nation, the diversity has served to make Khislavites a stronger people as a whole. In the past, tensions with the island nations off of their coasts have run high, and sometimes led to conflict. Khislav did not suffer from the break up of the central communist government because a large manufacturing sector was already at home within it's borders. In the eyes of the democratic (if tight-fisted) government that filled the power vacuum it was nothing more than a change of management. In a handful of years these last vestiges of oppression became tools. The fires of industry were rekindled, burning brightly anew. Recently, a very powerful symbol of Khislavite military prowess was born: the T-80Kv main battle tank. The export of such systems and weapons has proved lucrative in the past and will again. But for as long as anyone can remember, Khislav has ever been a region of constants. Vast tracts of land have always been dominated by strong, central governments. Monarchies and oligarchs rarely struggled for power with the landed elite. The very nature of the lands have forced the inhabitants to work together quite closely. Because of environmental and topographical constraints, the borders (even when it was dominated by foreign rule) has changed very little over the course of it's long history. Perhaps this will change in the coming days. But one thing is sure to remain: the resolve of the native sons of Khislav! [b][u]Military[/u][/b] [b]PERSONNEL[/b] Active Military Personnel: 520,000 Active Military Reserve: 375,000 Active Paramilitary Units: 110,000 [b]ARMY[/b] Tanks: 3,200 tanks Armored Personnel Carriers: 2,700 Towed Artillery: 3,600 Self-Propelled Guns: 600 Multiple Rocket Launch Systems: 500 Anti-Aircraft Systems: 1,300 [b]NAVY[/b] Aircraft Carriers: 2 Destroyers: 37 Submarines: 24 Frigates: 31 Patrol & Coastal Craft: 112 Mine Warfare Craft: 16 Amphibious Craft: 12 [b]AIR FORCE[/b] Total Aircraft: 4,800 Helicopters: 1,100 [b][u]Strategic Weapons[/u][/b] [b]Naval[/b] 10x Akula-class submarines (x1000 R-39 Rif-Ma SLBMs) [b]Land[/b] 80x RT-2PM Topol mobile ICBMs 120x RT-2UTTH Topol-M silo ICBMs [b]Bombs/Missiles[/b] 1750x warheads (various packages) [b]Total Stockpile[/b]: 2,950 devices [b][u]Economy[/u][/b] [b]Status[/b]: Developed [b]Economic System[/b]: Mixed (Capitalist/Socialist) [b]Major Exports[/b]: Machinery, arms, chemicals, food, textiles, timber [b]Major Imports[/b]: Mineral products, chemicals, oil, medicines, wealth [b]Conflicts[/b]: Nodic Kingdom [b]Trade Agreements[/b]: Republic of Lacedaemon [b]Military Alliances[/b]: Alliance: Erusean Confederation; MDP: Republic of Bastillo [b]World Status[/b]: Regional power

I'm not contesting the rules, I'm contesting their presentation. Otherwise, I agree with you 100%. Another problem arises when people decide it's fine to pick and choose which rules to follow because they're not immediately obvious. Consider: would knowing the rules before hand have changed your decision to become involved? For better or for worse? Being new here I can't quite answer that question, but I'm pretty sure it would have changed my outlook.

Strange, I haven't said anything anyone does here is wrong. Anyway, several other people agree with me that there is room for improvement, so obviously there isn't a consensus on the issue (there is ALWAYS room for improvement in ANYTHING). The system works, I'm sure, but it could be better as a matter of course. Part of encouraging new blood is getting to know new vantage points. That's what roleplay itself is about; new horizons. It's evolution, like you, yourself, said. Adaptation and progress.

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='02 March 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1267560741' post='2211601'] RP is about creativity. We did try having elaborate guidelines a long time ago, but they did not last much longer than a few days. This RP runs mainly on precedent, aka unwritten guidelines that we follow. Precedents do change with time, which allows RP and this world to stay creative and to stay an evolving world. [/quote] RP isn't about creativity, to be honest. It's about imagination, an item necessary to creativity but also exclusive of it. In fact, the idea of roleplaying itself limits creativity to some degree: the idea is that you transpose yourself into a situation you cannot otherwise enjoy. Whether that is simply another circumstance or another world entirely doesn't matter - you're still bound by the constraints of the situation (creativity merely keeps the imagination alive). Here in CNRP, the group creates the reality, a reality which needs rules to function - so that it's constituent members don't create something less than ideal. You mistake my interpretation of the concept of rules as: 1. You cannot do this; 2. You cannot do that; 3. Don't even think about it about asking. It's fine to have unwritten rules but it tends to create an uncertain (and potentially even hostile) atmosphere for newcomers. Unless you don't want new blood around, which I could understand to some degree, even if I think it's vital to the machine.

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='02 March 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1267559631' post='2211580']They are both symbols and a method of direct communication. A treatise, or rather the point, is to assert a point, hence the aspect of symbolic communication because to assert something is to value it as being vital and important. And as I wrote above to EM, I never said it was perfect; I was merely speaking on the current state of [i]what is[/i]... trust me, I have a myriad of suggestions I would love to see implemented, the [i]guidelines[/i] being one of the biggest of the few. [/quote] A rule is meant to be forceful and tangible, and a symbo- you know what? Nevermind. It never helps anyone to argue semantics. The fact is that you're supposed to know what you're jumping into, otherwise you might be rudely surprised (my time on RP forums has prepared me for this kind of thing, though). If that something is so vital and important than it needs to be visible to all those who it affects. Do we agree in that capacity? [quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='02 March 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1267559720' post='2211584'] Our basic guidelines are in the Map thread. It talks about tech, military and other important information to start RPing here. If you want to know about the various precedents regarding things such as defense against a nuclear arm, feel free to ask about them. [/quote] It would make life much easier for everyone if the rules didn't look like such a big secret. Why would you oppose elaborating on them? It would make life easier.

[quote name='Silhouette' date='02 March 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1267559418' post='2211576'] Welcome to bureaucracy. [/quote] Even the worst bureaucracies do a better job informing the people that make them possible. EDIT: Stupid typo.

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='02 March 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1267558552' post='2211556'] Not everything can be spelled out. Generally, people have missile defense systems and Anti-Sat missiles after some R&D, depending on your nation's tech level. [/quote] Of course, I agree. But it wouldn't hurt to keep a record of issues as they arise. Perhaps a CNRP guidelines FAQ? [quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='02 March 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1267558655' post='2211557'] It's a policy that has been formed verbally, though within precedence and context. If you want a SDI in the RP, you need a SDI in game. This has been an accepted system for a very long time now (even before my entry into the community). It's an unwritten law, much like it's not nice to glare at people. Things like that. Arbitrary? Yes. Abstract? Yes. Ambiguous? Yes. Welcome to the world of communication and interpretation; all symbols and verbal statements contain those three aspects (the three A's) of symbolism and communication. [/quote] Rules are neither symbols nor a method of communication, they are a treatise to be accepted upon joining a community. How can I accept these rules if I don't know what they are? Or am I expected to ask every other post to be sure? That sounds horrifically inefficient.

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' date='02 March 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1267557734' post='2211538'] Dude, the rules DO exist. christ, they are actually written down listed marked stickied http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=76516 here is a goddamn link. [/quote] And yet so many are missing! Where is the rule listed that you can only have ABMs if you have an SDI in-game? Where are the rules about ASAT missiles?

[quote name='BaronUberstein' date='02 March 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1267554210' post='2211494'] I remember the time when I first joined CNRP, and let me tell you, it has gotten a lot better.[/quote] Is that any reason to stop working to better it further? [quote name='BaronUberstein' date='02 March 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1267554210' post='2211494']Back then we had at least 2 people claiming Moscow as their capital, no map, people using giant flying mechs with laser swords, and more. Yes we have our arguments now, but the rules have really helped CNRP go from insanity to something we can discuss. Back when I first started, there was much less RL stuff. When I first RP'd as Russany, I had 300 troops, and since my tech wasn't high enough for tanks ingame, I RP'd having WWI-style armored cars. As someone who has fought several wars in CNRP and never been one of the big strength players, I can assure everyone the rules don't favor the stronger nations. The community tends to support them when they want to do something, but the rules themselves are far from being the issue. [/quote] I already covered these points. It's not about size or strength. [quote name='Zoot Zoot' date='02 March 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1267555823' post='2211510']theyre not up for debate deal with it. Either join our esteemed comunity who have been patient and answered your questions whilst you still whine about them, or you dont.[/quote] I've been led to believe they are up for comment, debate, and suggestion by the very same people who have 'been patient'. I haven't whined about a single thing; merely trying to fit in. If I'd been whining I would have been pimping my own nation in the process, crying about how it's unfair for me. Truth is, I don't care about my own nation, I care about the environment and understanding how it works, so save the internet tough guy act. How can I whine about rules that don't exist in the first place?

[quote name='Markus Wilding' date='02 March 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1267550125' post='2211437'] The "rules" and guidelines are listed on the first page on the Map Thread. [/quote] And not a single mention of ASAT missiles or ABMs. Not even anything about SDIs. I'm going to be frank: this stuff should be in writing. Otherwise it's arbitrary and no one is on the same page.

[quote name='Markus Wilding' date='02 March 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1267549748' post='2211431'] To be honest, you came off a bit harsh on that. No, it's not listed because Centurius knows what he's talking about. [/quote] Someone should probably compile rules like this into a list, then, so everyone knows. It would avoid the kind of questions I'm bound to ask.

[quote name='Markus Wilding' date='02 March 2010 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1267549373' post='2211418'] Centurius was a GM at one point, so I believe he would know about this. [/quote] I was just asking if it was listed somewhere that I missed.

[quote name='Centurius' date='02 March 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1267544768' post='2211328']Looking at precedents until pre-approved by the other warring party I am. [/quote] So you speak for everyone? Or have I not seen some rule somewhere?

[quote name='Centurius' date='02 March 2010 - 08:39 AM' timestamp='1267537360' post='2211246'][b]Cybernations[/b] Role-Play if you cant live with taking ig stats for the rp you joined the wrong board.[/quote] Right, all this has already been covered, but this is a false statement. Not everything in CNRP is covered by IG rules or stats. [quote name='Centurius' date='02 March 2010 - 08:39 AM' timestamp='1267537360' post='2211246']Seeing as there is no way ig to destroy satellites we turned those down. [/quote] Then it seems we've a debacle, observe: [quote name='Executive Minister' date='01 March 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1267490410' post='2210529']A-SAT's are allowed.[/quote] Who is correct in this matter?

You know you can count me in.

[quote name='Fizzydog' date='01 March 2010 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1267493803' post='2210599'] Wrong thread. [/quote] This thread is for technology discussion, yes?

[quote name='Silhouette' date='01 March 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1267492595' post='2210576'] Sun Tzu also said that the ultimate victory is to defeat your enemies without fighting... [/quote] Touche.

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='01 March 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1267490410' post='2210529']Check out the East African War in my sig. SOM invaded me when i was still in the Cold War era, and we both turned out fine.[/quote] This raises an indirectly related issue I've noticed. Case in point: compare my IKv-31M (MiG-31M) Foxhound to the GDR's Me 2.304 Habicht. Both aircraft are comparable, despite the GDR's huge lead in development and technology. Depending on how much leeway we give the Habicht's maximum speed, the Foxhound is faster (all the while 3,000 kg heavier with almost identical thrusts and thrust ratios) and more heavily armed. The chief differences are likely avionics and stealth. Does anyone else see this as an issue?

[quote name='Shadowsage' date='01 March 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1267491089' post='2210545'] Feel free to tell yourself that. [/quote] I didn't tell myself that, Sun Tzu did. EDIT: Whoops. Sorry about the double post.

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='01 March 2010 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1267491581' post='2210559'] No, but I am one of those players who helped shape the rules. They exist in RL...I've seen the articles. I just can't remember where to look. [/quote] I meant here in CNRP. Sorry about the confusion.

[quote name='Arieg' date='01 March 2010 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1267490248' post='2210521'] I also have yet to find anything about A-SAT capabilities. [/quote] We're better off assuming no such thing exists, I think. I'd love to put some A-SAT missiles on my Su-24s, though.

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='01 March 2010 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1267489819' post='2210513'] And this is why I like being big, so I can stomp on the little guy. [/quote] Numbers alone confer no advantage in battle.

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='01 March 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1267489634' post='2210504']We hardly reject any new ideas out of hand. Just review some of the last past pages of topics in this forum. You'll see that changes are often proposed and heavily discussed by the player base--old and new alike. Some get approved, others don't, and they have nothing to do with whether you are "Old Guard" or "Young'un" [/quote] I didn't say you, specifically, did.

I'm not even talking about nations, I'm talking about the influential players behind the nations. It's blatantly clear to me that you have constructed an environment crafted to your own tastes. There's nothing wrong with that. But the fact that you reject out of hand other ideas is very telling. You see my suggestion as a challenge, and have placed it beneath peer review. At least that's the way you've come across thus far. The only fair way to mitigate wars is to place the formulation of the rules into the hands of an objective third-party. Also, I'm not up in arms about anything. I don't really care. I just noticed the ridiculous holes in the rules and initiated dialogue.

[quote name='Sargun' date='01 March 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1267488076' post='2210465'] I go into this kind of thing looking for a good write. I've been under 40k NS for over two years. Vince has only slowly been gaining strength and has been in it for a long time, and he made the tech scale - and he's mainly in it for a good story. I'm not even going to tell you what Sarah's in it for, that's just silliness. The rules weren't made by huge players looking to dominate. Most of the rules today were made by smaller players who have remained small and are in it mainly to RP. [/quote] Why are you still talking about size, then? That's not even entering into my argument in the first place.