Senekis

Check the time in the pics, an extra nation joined them.

Last hours to vote in this one. I'm launching the next poll tomorrow, perhaps a couple of hours after update if I'm sober enough.

I took them from this thread and some other which name can't remember right now, I think I linked it in the OP.

You may not, but I do. >.>

Oh, the opportunism... This has nothing in common with the Mhawk logs or the "CB". If the claiming about most of the UED wanting to remove KDII is true, then there's nothing wrong with this. They went to Athens asking for help and Athens gave them advice and options. Even if the above stated claiming is false, those UED guys would be the ones to blame for using lies to get help with a coup. Try harder next time.

You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species… finally, the galaxy itself.

Yeah, a video would've been better, wouldn't it?

tl;dr: If you're going to make a new thread, make sure that Lamuella approves of it before posting it here. If he doesn't like it, you should post it in a random blog. Seriously, the GRL is already affecting people.

Yeah, sounds better. I think there's something disgusting with the word "prisoner", as I'm trying to defend what I stated in the OP. I dislike the idea of being a prisoner because of someone else's crimes, but that may be just me.

I think some of them were forced into this fight (by Mhawk or the aggressors, that's not the point here) and that should be taken into consideration. Fair enough. Although there are less offensive AAs.

I find Whatever PoW AA offensive and against the sovereignty of a nation. If the point is to make them remove TPF as their AA, I think stating such term is enough. The clown's clothing was an (bad, perhaps) analogy that is irrelevant to the discussion. If the point is to take out the uniforms, I don't see the need to make them wear a particular kind of clothing.

Oh, yeah, make them remove their uniform but don't force them to use clown's clothing.

Then why not make them sign something along those lines and let them go? You know... the prisoner title is a big hit for a nation's sovereignty and pride. It's natural that some will look at it with despite.

Well... I'll quote something that I just discussed on IRC some minutes ago: (I removed the lines from the one who was talking with me because I don't know if he wants logs of that being posted here). A PoW is something horrible, it's not individual white peace.

So... nations are just like poker chips and you give your own to the best player and hope that he won't end up losing all of them? Pff...

That would be white peace. Quite different from being a PoW.

And I believe it is acceptable. If a whole alliance or most of its membership refuse to back up its leader and his actions, it says a lot about the leader and mostly that his actions deviate completely from the goal of the alliance. Thus, let him be punished for his stupid acts and let the membership take the alliance's course back. If the leader is standing for the ideas that he defended back when he (or his predecessors) created the alliance, most of its membership will gladly get their nations destroyed to defend that idea.

I'm not anti government, anarchist or something of that kind. (I'm in the NSO after all) I'm simply against paying for what someone did behind you, like in this case which is pretty peculiar because most of TPF's population never saw it coming. I mean, a couple of weeks ago we were enjoying (or not) the whole NSO, CSN, DF, RIA drama, We all were well aware of the political climate and wouldn't be surprised if someone from the above mentioned alliances started attacking us. We knew what our gov. was verbalizing and were free to leave our alliances if we were against our gov's position. I think a lot of people (including me) would've gladly joined the war to fight for an idea/a gov./an alliance that they were backing up. But that's quite different from suddently being attacked for a reason that you were unaware of. Believe me, I'd be happy throwing away all my pixels in a war where I'm fighting to defend something that's important to me, but not just losing it because someone tought "lol, let's make this fake alliance, then merge it with Athens and finally destroy it" would be fun.

How can you know if your alliance is doing a bunch of classified stuff? It's not like the gov. will post a thread telling you "Hi. We're doing some secret things, don't ask." While I agree that it's the fault of the government I still think that unnecessarily rolling a whole alliance for something that a small group of gov. members did secretly is unnaceptable. Yes, you can coup your gov. once the war is over, but in the meantime your nation is destroyed, your people dead and you are a prisoner. And the worst part; your only mistake was joining the wrong alliance and not having a way to know what its gov. was doing in the shadows.

And again, there's where the problem lies. What if your alliance's gov. goes against its Constitution/Codex/Whatever and you are never informed about it until three nations are attacking yours and then someone from an enemy / not allied alliance tells you that your gov. was doing sneaky things and keeping them secret to you? You join an alliance and fight for its ideals, not to die for a random stupid action that you never knew about.

I'm not sure if there's any alliance that will share classified information with its lower members. I think most are transparent and trustworthy, always keeping updated with brief updates about the general moves of the alliance, but again, some moves are kept in silence (which is good, you don't want 1 day members leaking info) and one of those moves may cause another alliance attacking yours. Then you check the global news and notice that your gov. $%&@ed something up, never told you about it and your nation is now completely destroyed.

So... non gov. members should limit themselves to trust their gov. and hope that it won't lead their nations in a wrong way behind the curtains while they show them a completely different face on the scenario?

It's not about comparing. Something bad being slightly better than some other thing doesn't make the first one a good thing. Yes, I could change my AA daily, yet, I would be dragged into this kind of stuff in any alliance. I love the NSO and I bet most of you love your alliances, but I still find it illogical to pay for what you gov. is doing behind you.

I support and stand by what I know of my alliance, yes. Yet I would hate to be involved in a war because Moldavi infiltrated another alliance a year ago or did something completely different from what the Sith Codex stands for. Penluque Solaris was the one I was debating with, but the Bob I'm talking about is... well... Planet Bob.

Trust is a thing, blindly following someone else's decisions is quite different. Also, trust is something you cultivate with time and time is something new nations do not have. A nation joins Bob and it's "forced" to join an alliance for its own protection. Older nations may know their way better and can judge the leaders of the different alliances and join the one that they like the most (or dislike the less), but most nations will join their first alliance because the flag was sexy, the alliance's name was cool or simply because that alliance's message was the first they opened when checking their government's mail.