Phetion

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281379638' post='2408006'] You dispute the word trivial. Would you consider $6 million in aid as a significant, trivial, or moderate sum of aid? What would be the status you consider of a 4k NS nation? I consider both to be trivial. And if referring to them for what I believe them to be puts RoK in a bad light, is it me putting them in a bad light, or is it the facts of the situation putting them in a bad light? I am not denying that Heft of the NSO screwed up, and I won't even dispute that RoK, technically, was violated here. But Heft's superiors reached out in diplomacy, to try and correct the issue, and RoK rejected this diplomacy. That, and that alone, puts RoK in the wrong. Had NSO not offered a diplomatic solution, a solution that would have been simple and I doubt would have taken over five minutes to arrive at, then, and only then, would RoK be totally justified in declaring war. Instead, and we agree on this fact, instead, RoK rushed to attack before NSO could hit peace mode, and in the process blatantly ignored NSO's attempts at a diplomatic resolution. These are the facts. The next is the interpretation of what they mean. To me, it is clear that RoK wanted this war. Once Heft gave them the opportunity, they just couldn't resist, and weren't about to let a day of diplomacy get in their way. Another fact is that a multitude of people, from various ranks, right up to Van Hoo III himself, the de-facto leader of the SuperFriends bloc, have attempted goad NPO and their allies into war. I interpret that fact, and the context of multiple other attempts to get NPO involved in war over the past few weeks, to indicate that this war is about much more than the rather petty violation Heft committed on RoK. The party line response at this point is for you to call me a "conspiracy theorist" and to tell me to "take off the tin foil hat." But I'm hoping maybe we might spark a serious discussion on the matter. [/quote] Frankly, it would be a huge bonus in my opinion if this war escalated, even without NPO's participation. Unless you're heavily involved in the politics, the waiting before wars is little fun. In the four years I've been here, I've been on either side of a war, winning or losing. It kick starts activity and you generally gain more active members, who weren't otherwise very active within the alliance. So yes, personally I would love to see it escalate, just for the few weeks of debate it will spark. Van Hoo is the de facto leader of SuperFriends? I thought it was Penkala, or something We took our pound of flesh from Pacifica, and within GOD that part ended for us when Karma/reps finished. Perhaps NPO will want to come for their tech one day, and so I say bring it. Regardless of our political standing at that point in time. I'm more inclined to believe that many would rather see other alliances from that 'side' drawn out. I know exactly who GOD would like to see join the fray. You make a point of stating Rok rushed into this attack, seizing the opportunity. The simple fact of this matter however is that Hoo [i]explicitly[/i] told NSO exactly what would happen. So it happened. It's as simple as that. If NSO didn't want it to happen, it was an extremely easy out for them. It's as easy to argue NSO wanted this war, as it is Rok did. They knew precisely what they were doing, and they've baited other SuperFriend alliances several times over the past year (though I can forgive you for not knowing that, since you weren't around -thankfully- we had enough posters like yourself just with AUT). Therefore I can easily conclude that NSO were in fact the ones seeking the war - though this isn't my personal opinion, I just think they bit off more than they could chew, and picked the wrong SF alliance to piss off. Regarding 'trivial': In this instance the connotations of it supports your argument, which is trying to being completely objective/factual with no bias. 'trivial' skews this to support you, therefore in this case I think you shouldn't have used it. It's not the amount of money that matters, it's the fact that money was sent. Likewise, the size of the nation doesn't matter either, it's the principle. I think that covers every point you've made, please don't retaliate with a "BUT YOU SKIRTED AROUND MY QUESTION HURRR". If I did, let me know and I'll fix it.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281377719' post='2407926'] Now please go back and answer my question. Seriously it's a simple yes or no question, why are you trying to skirt around it? [/quote] Objectively, the facts are correct though worded in a manner to make Rok look bad. For example, 'trivial'. Looking at it in this manner would cause people to sympathise with NSO. However, subjectively, and when you add into the context and the shared deixis that we pretty much all have, people can understand the situation and why these 'facts' came into play. Thus, causing people to support Rok. So, to clarify the facts are true. They're just displayed in a manner that suits your propaganda.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281377304' post='2407918'] I'm sorry, you don't seem to be answering my question. I don't know why, I think the facts are pretty obvious. Please, bear with me here. This isn't some sort of trick of them being taken out of context. Though you do seem to dispute the fact that Heft acted in violation of Sith policy. But he did, and the reality is you can hardly lay the blame on NSO as a whole. Especially when [i]Heft's superiors were actively seeking a diplomatic resolution.[/i] I think it's because to explicitly admit to the facts is to basically admit that RoK acted aggressively, because they wanted this war to happen, and that runs directly counter to the current line of reasoning that NSO just up and decided they wanted to get rolled one day. Yes, the classic justification that the victim actually wants to suffer through the crime being committed. What a shock to see you fall back on to that one. [/quote] Or maybe it's as simple as this: Rok told NSO don't aid him, or it's an act of war. NSO aided him. Rok followed through on their promise. Yeah, Rok are acting aggressively, because NSO forced their hand and called their bluff.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281376453' post='2407882'] Do you or do you not dispute these facts? [/quote] It's easy to post facts without the context that created them, and surrounds them. To be honest, it's as simple as Hoo told NSO that if they aided that nation, it would consider it an act of war. Which it did. There was no need for diplomatic talks to prevent this war, as NSO threw diplomacy out of the window when they aided a nation that was directly involved in war with a Rok Protectorate after being explicitly warned not to, beforehand.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1281376388' post='2407881'] 72% of statistics are made up on the spot (couldn't resist). [/quote] :v +1 to you sir.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281375167' post='2407834'] Nice way to twist reality for your own purposes. NSO called off their allies because they quickly realized this whole thing was a trap. NSO did not screw up, Heft screwed up and did something in violation of Sith policy. RoK rejected Wad of Lint's offer of a diplomatic solution. It is obvious to anyone not brainwashed by Hoo's little cult that this was blatant aggression and RoK had no intention of seeking a peaceful resolution. [/quote] You're a funny guy. I'm going to say this one last time in the hope you might open your eyes. It's been beaten to death in every other topic regarding this war, and to be fair to your side, quite a few have realised it is a solid CB, caused by NSO themselves, not Rok. Read this real slow and clear herooftime55: Rok approached NSO as a rogue that had hit two of their protectorates nations. This was evidenced by the war screens on CN, dating back two days before this war developed. Heft/NSO then went on to say that they would aid the nation as a "compromise" or whatever. Heft was then informed that this would be an act of war. 95% of people, no matter where they stand in terms of sides admit that this is a clear cut CB. NSO then aided the rogue nation. As someone said earlier, this was throwing down the gauntlet so to speak. NSO decided at this point that they did not want diplomacy. Rok and co declare on NSO, [b]exactly like they told them they would if they decided to do the 'act of war'[/b]. I understand it's convenient for you to claim this is some sort of trap. What I don't understand is how you are trying so hard to sell it as a trap, when it's so damn clear this would have been avoided had NSO heeded Hoo's words that aiding a target of Rok, a nation that was currently rogue-ing their protectorate, would cause a war. That way this would have been solved diplomatically. Worst trap ever. Carry on though, I know you will, but it was worth a shot in the hope you'd stop posting your dense !@#$. Edit: Eww 'rouging'. Apparently 'rogueing' isn't a word,

[quote name='thisperson' timestamp='1281374413' post='2407811'] Also @ the current pages: white peace. We gave that out before it was the kewl thing to do. CCC can attest to that. [/quote] You know, I said the same thing yesterday. It always made me laugh a little inside when NSO were running around shouting about how they started the white peace fad. From recollection (and I'm sure we weren't the first to do it) but I can't recall anyone before us in the WoTC against CCC to give white peace (to reaffirm this before someone shouts they did it first, I'm sure someone probably did it first), and we've done it regularly to those we don't have a history with, or a desire to see suffer.

[quote name='MadScotsman' timestamp='1281373081' post='2407779'] So you agree, poor military planning from RoK. Good to see we agree. [/quote] Could you please explain where that came from? I see no agreement, unless, you're agreeing with what I said and therefore those wars Valhalla played a part in, had poor planning? Right. If that's the case, I suppose I can... No, sorry, I couldn't even [i]try[/i] to comprehend where you got that from.

[quote name='MadScotsman' timestamp='1281371080' post='2407717'] 35 Nations of a 169 are in Peace Mode. Fair do's. I have to admit that is the best reason to have this pile up I have seen. Due to NSO running to peace mode, RoK needed more of their slots taken up by other alliances. Are you really saying that RoK don't have the military organisation to hit a 134 nations they need some major help? I will remember this day as the day RoK couldn't handle 134 Nations but required a handful alliances to do it for them. [/quote] Bearing in mind RoK has 190ish nations, it only makes sense for them to call an ally or three to cover their lite ranges. Why on earth would you waste an advantage such as that? Also, Valhalla have no room to speak. Example #1 http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Golden_Sabres_War Example #2 http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Continuum-NoV_War Example #3 http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/GATO-1V_War I can keep going, if you would like. Yeah, you've fought on the losing side twice now, GO YOU. You still rolled in a similar manner before.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281365512' post='2407516'] He was. He was speaking as an official of the NSO. Not its leader. Imagine one day, Joe Stupid did something that would normally be considered an act of war. Wouldn't you expect another alliance to go and talk to Hoo to try and resolve the situation first before ordering a curbstomp? [/quote] In all honesty, if say No-Fish did something stupid in GOD government, I'd expect to receive the repercussions. I'd fully support the decision he took however.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281365261' post='2407504'] I note how everyone is now equating Heft with NSO. Heft, congratulations! You've been promoted. [/quote] I note how you are now bringing something pretty irrelevant up, because your argument fell to pieces. Hurrr. Edit: I suppose it's not completely irrelevant, just a nice try at changing the topic.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281364922' post='2407485'] [22:12] <Heft> The only evidence we have paints him as the defender, with TENE clearly provoking him Sorry, my bad. It's still pretty clear that Ragnarok was looking for a CB here, and they've always been good with "Failed to obey Hoo" as one. [/quote] Clutching at straws. NSO had an extremely simple way of avoiding the CB. If Rok was looking for the CB, perhaps they would have been more ambiguous than "We will consider aiding him an act of war". NSO gave them the CB on a plate. There's now way around that, and there's no logical defence for what NSO chose to do.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281364472' post='2407463'] Yeah, except they didn't say he was a rogue, they just said he was a target. Read the logs. [/quote] [quote][22:16] <VanHooIII[RoK]> I hope you understand [22:17] <Heft> I consider it a reasonable compromise, personally [22:17] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And we'd consider aid sent to a nation [b]we deem a rogue[/b] and are at war with as an act of war[/quote] I read the logs. That's 20 minutes before the next confrontation, after NSO sends the aid. What now, Haflinger?

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281364039' post='2407442'] Indeed he had active wars at the time. For some reason, Ragnarok government preferred to avoid mentioning that when discussing his target status with NSO. There's a magic phrase I've used when dealing with rogues applying to other alliances on many an occasion: "Check his war screen." It's amazing how well this works. [/quote] Common sense would surely lead you to 'check his war screen' as soon as somebody approaches you about him being a rogue. Nobody who has played any kind of active role in an alliance would avoid doing so particularly before sending aid. That and naturally, you generally check a nations active wars/aid screens as a quick screen of their recent history. Even if that isn't common practice in your alliance, you know damn well that his war screen would have been noticed once somebody came knocking on the door to deal with him. It'd be plain stupid not to check it. Mind you, aiding him right after being told it would be viewed as an act of war, is pretty stupid too. Perhaps following that train of thought, I can see where you're coming from.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281360905' post='2407382'] No, this is not the case. In this case, NSO knowingly and willing took in a nation, and were directly told that aiding that nation would be taken as an act of war for no reason at all. When their member was attacked, they sent him war aid, as alliances normally do when their nations are attacked for no reason. [/quote] Really? I mean, [i]really[/i]. Did you seriously manage to type that with a straight face. NSO [i]knew[/i] he was at war with TENE when they aided him, you're incredibly ignorant if you so believe otherwise. Yeah, I know why you would like to believe your story, but the facts are so blatantly obvious. And for reference, Haflinger: http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=410982&Extended=1 Just to make sure you don't miss it this time, you can clearly see he had active wars with TENE nations here. Ragnarok approached NSO. How much further evidence do you need to prevent you sending (to quote you) 'war aid'?

How hard was it to comprehend "If you do this, we will take it as an act of war". You made your bed NSO, lie in it.

The Beer Review Crusade o/

[quote]Aid Coordinated: $4.926 Billion[/quote] That much Xiph, not 3 billion, give the man the credit he deserves

Nick Carraway lies. A lot.

It's an awful shame that Halsa never really rekindled it's early spirit that saw it grow so quickly. I remember when you were well over the 100 member mark, when you crossed the 1 million mark, what a year and a half ago? And everything in between. Halsa produced some fantastic members who've spread across the web in all directions, more often than not in some government capacity. You were my first true home alliance and what made me stick with game eventually, back in April 07, so thank you for that. The original spirit of the alliance died when KasMage and Druid were penalised and eternal ZIed by Emperor Moo, for voicing an opinion. Never mind, CN goes on. o/ KasMage o/ Zocane o/ Opal the Goat o/ Malicousman o/ Blackflame o/ Emperor Brian o/ Hippojack o/ Jtkode o/ Gen Beagle Good luck to the Halsans who move over to Corp.

o/ Kronos. We're going to have us some fun.

Kronos has (unfortunately, I guess, since it meant they left us, if only for a while) had a few nations who have already nuked Warbuck. We win

We were first

I hope you find your way to fighting Kronos. Not likely, but, one day you will

Good luck in the future OMFG, it's a shame communication died out. Que sera, sera.