Jamacus
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Posts posted by Jamacus
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I had planned on leaving this thread but since this is addressed specifically to me I feel I must reply.
That is your problem Jamacus. I touched it when replying to Schattenmann.One other problem for general CN populous to understand this situation for Legion besides not understanding the strong will to try to keep alliance alive, is also that it wouldn't be "just" "another war, surrender, POW" situation. You downplay it greatly, making it look as it would be walk through the park in comparison to their current situation. I assure you, it wouldn't. They would be hit hard and constant at first, and once surrenderer would be an option, POW camp would probably last long and be rigorous. I belive this is a better scenario for them.
I suppose I did misunderstand the situation. I suppose all the cries of the "just and fair" NPO has led me to believe they would be fair to nations that were unaware of the treachery and, in fact, at the first sign of the treachery left Legion as a sign protest. They no longer wanted to be a part of Legion that has bungled things so badly again.
I didn't think that NPO would attack individual nations just looking for fresh start merely because their leaders had screwed them over. The OOC example would be a nation attacking war refugees fleeing a nation just because they elected the leaders that had started the war. If you would have indeed been total in your destruction. If you would have not let Legion disband but would have instead martyred every nation just for the actions of two members whom the ejected and sanctioned, then I suppose they did do the right thing in forcing members to stay. If the choice really was between closing the boarders or complete and alliance wide devastation is suppose I would have had to act in the best interest of my nations and close the boarders.
However, I must wonder what NPO has to gain by raining such destruction upon individual nations that you have conceded was no threat. You said that "people are responsible for the government they elect." So this begs the question was this whole exercise just a giant object lesson? A show for the leaders of Cybernations so they can see that not only will they pay for treachery against Pacifica but also that each and every alliance member will also pay for their sins? The equivalent of the mafia blackmailing a person by threatening his family?
I do not know the answers to these questions. I only bring up the questions that your posts leave me asking.
Apples and oranges.ODN is before my time, and although I am sure its before yours as well, I will not claim anything about something that I did not witness. But from what I heard, "better peace terms" do not ring true in this case as well.
Only FAN in VietFAN manage to get better peace terms through their fighting abilities with most of their enemies, cept for NPO.
All other cases, are different and can not compare.
I wouldn't say ODN got better terms by fighting better. We merely got better terms by clinging tenaciously to life until an opportunity presented itself for us to change our situation. I doubt any such opportunity would have presented itself to Legion and I think a VietFan type situation would be terrible for Legion.
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Orange = Frosted Flakes
The're Gggggggggreat!
That is 8 types of awesome. I can seriously not believe that there is a TonytheTiger and that he is on Orange.
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Actually, J, I'd hope I didn't 'make' anyone like me. And even if I did, I fear I'm far better at making them hate me, it seems. If you simply meant my speaking the accolades of ODN helped garner me their favor, then I guess that's just how it goes. My last post was simply a historical note, infused with a little residual ORRPLE love. BTW, that is two R's there in ORRPLE. And I would agree that it is indeed the most successful MDP ever, regardless of how folks feel about the degree to which the alliances themselves have succeeded. The fact that ODN has stood by Legion through this time of earthshaking hardship (albeit sometimes with a pretty confused look on your faces) is a testament to how strong that bond is. I'd say it's almost comparable to the Ordinance of Order, but OoO is an MADP, not MDP. I hope that after things settle in Legion, work can commence to rebuild what has been lost in this time of Legion instability. Z'ha has certainly at the very least implied his intentions were never to sever that bond.
You didn't "make" us like you in the sense that you forced us to. Rather you had a very suave way of speaking to us and treating us that led us to like you. For example, in your last post you appealed to ODN's pride in the tenacity of our alliance. Our alliance has been to hell and back a number of times and we are very proud of that fact. You knew exactly which button to push, perhaps even subconsciously, to get the best reaction out of us. It's a rare talent to bring out the best response in somebody and that's another reason why we were so surprised at this turn of events. Like you said, the higher the expectations the harder it hurts when you fall short.
As for ORRPLE I think only history can tell. A confused look on our face doesn't even begin to describe our predicament right now. I posted a gushy note in the ORRPLE hangout an hour before the Legion disbandment and then within the space of an hour I had been locked out of the forum, Legion had been declared disbanded, and trolls were already out dancing on Legion's grave. That's quite a shock to the system, seeing your best friend fall from alive and hale to dead and being dragged through the mud all in the space of an hour. Except it was worse because our best friend Swampy in Legion had turned into the worst enemy of Legion. Then Legion gets resurrect ed but it's no longer the Legion we remember.
and so here I am after the craziest whirlwind of emotions I have ever felt in this game talking to the man I should hate the most but instead I am feeling sorry for.
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I think this list is like Bigfoot. Many people claim it exists but very few people have actually seen it.
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Careful, Jamacus. I hear liking me now is dangerous.
What can I say. You always knew exactly what to say to make ODN like you. You're one of the main reasons ORPLE was the most successful MDP ever. It's really a pity things had to turn out this way. I have a feeling we were just beginning to plumb the depths of our love. Who knows how far we could have taken ORPLE.
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It's certainly possible to bounce back from oppressive terms, or an ugly extended military conflict, or large reparations, or a number of such hardships. I can't remember off the top of my head if it was NAAC or ODN who had a viceroy, but I do remember that ODN had to swear some oath to Ivan for a long time after the Citrus War, and while that absolutely created animosity no doubt, look at the relationship between ODN and NPO now! ODN has overcome a lot in their time, and they have overcome everything. It perhaps has taken them some time certainly, but ODN are a model for resiliency and tenacity that hopefully the Legion can seek to emulate. I have hope that one day Legion will be as awesome as ODN is right now.
In fact, every alliance should aspire to be as awesome of ODN.
Gosh darn it Swampy! You're making me like you again. Stop!
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Words every alliance lives by I'm sure. Easier said than done in most cases.
Are you kidding? It's easy! Just mass message every NPO nation greater then 5000 NS. It works wonders. I suggest you give it a try.
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Orange is Frosted Flakes because the sphere is (in Tony the Tiger voice) GREAAAAAAT!!!!!!!!
Plus the character is orange.
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I am surprised by that they did not try to talk to you. Speaking to the person who is about to attack you is the first thing I would do.
However, I believe I have said everything I need to say in this thread. I have beaten the dead horse until it is nothing more then pulp. I must now bury the Legion I knew and move on to the future. I hope some people will rethink their thoughts about keeping members of Legion imprisoned but that is not up for me to decide.
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I have the old fashioned idea people are responsible for the government they elect.
Normally, I agree with you. I didn't shed a single tear for any GOONS nation I helped destroy. However, I always thought they deserved an out. All they had to say was, "Hey, I don't support the government that got me into this" and they walk free, perhaps paying some reps if they did some damage. (After some time as a POW so we could keep an eye on them) When an alliance disbands they are basically giving up. The fact that Legion disbanded without even fighting would, one would think, actually make you less likely to attack them. Would you prefer that they had gone nuclear and then disbanded like \m/?
Still, this does shed some new light on the situation.
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It ain't always about removing threats, sometimes it is about dealing justice.
I suppose I have this old fashioned idea where you ZI the leaders responsible for the mess and let the innocent members walk away.
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For the record we were going to.
You were going to hunt down and kill the remnants of a disbanded alliance after they had removed themselves from being a threat to you?
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Why do most ODNers refuse to call The Legion by its proper name ever since the change in leadership? Unless you mean it as in "The new and improved" Legion, then it's a nice compliment I guess.
Sorry, been seeing that a lot and am just curious.
Well, we have respected Pacificans like Branimir calling it New Legion so we figured we should just follow suit. They are looking for a fresh start after all.
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ORRPLE is still suspended, however, we have left the private ODN/Legion board open on the Legion boards. While they are our prisoners, we don't see a reason to not allow visitor rights
While I am glad I can still refer to our treaty as ORPLE I must admit I was looking forward to the name ORGY.
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Why they can not leave, is not upon me to answer, as I am not the best person for it, as I did not implement the action or was involved in the decision making process when it was. I could speculate, that it is about vultures that pray now on weakened Legion members to up their alliance count, because of misinformations that probably are rampant now, that it is also to try to prevent a domino effect and I do not see anything wrong with that. If the goal for New Legion is to survive, domino effect is its biggest enemy at this point. It would come to be through those leaving pulling with them people that would actually stay after they saw the situation after the initial shock. As such, let the initial wave of questions and doubts pass, and then let the borders free for those who after that stick to their opinion for leaving.
Also you forget. Legion members are members of alliance that basically unconditionally surrendered.
As Dilber said already, they are also prisoners of those to whom they surrendered.
But in this case, without having POW as their AA, and scattered without a forum or place to organize, they are able to keep their AA, their forums, to promote their organization and to try to correct mistakes that they repeatedly made which landed them here.
It is funny to me, how you can not grasp that.
Which was my general point. Many of these members are not happy people trying to rebuild their alliance they are Prisoners Of War plain and simple. Except that unlike normal prisoners of war they can't just set their AA to NPO POW, pay some reps, and move on with their lives fondly remembering Legion. They are instead doomed to sit on PURPLE and pour out aid with no end in sight all for the privilege of wearing the Alliance Affiliation of an alliance they no longer care about, serve leaders they didn't elect and try and fix mistakes they didn't make. I don't understand why I should respect these people, rather I pity them.
An alliance is nothing more then the people in it. You can not "save" an alliance merely by forcing members in it, you are keeping the heart beating but the mind is dead. You aren't saving anyone by keeping members in Legion. You are just pushing the suffering assumed by the few onto the many. I can understand and respect the wishes of those that voted aye to the surrender terms, to them Legion is worth it, but you aren't helping anyone by keeping members in the alliance.
Edit:Dilber just posted that Legion will not be moving of gray.
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I love the commentary. Keep up the good work.
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It is obvious from all, that after the initial disbanding orders came, that a strong disapproval came from core Legion members.
They did not want their alliance to get disbanded. They wanted to keep it living.
Do you understand that?
From all choices that they had, at that moment, they chosen to achieve actually the hardest, to preserve the alliance which they call home, and do it peacefully as obviously they weren't eager to fight and die for sins of their previous goverment.
They did that. You should congratulate them actually for making it.
Yes, its under harsh terms, but there wasnt any other way.
Only other was getting smashed, for nothing, nothing "noble", nothing "higher", nothing worth getting smashed for.
You are quick to judge them harshly, without even considering all positions, or trying to understand them.
I know what it is like to sacrifice for your alliance and I would normally applaud such actions. I went to ZI for my alliance in GWIII and then rebuilt just so I could pay reparations. From a purely selfish standpoint I should have left ODN and joined GPA long ago.
However, if this is indeed something the Legion decided as a whole then why do they not allow nations to leave? If as you say strong approval comes from the Legion toward the viceroy then why are they trapped? There is no reason to institute such a rule unless it is to avoid Legion from bleeding dry from members who no longer want to be a part of Legion.
After GWIII ODN lost many nations. This was because they didn't want to pay reps or because they no longer thought that ODN was the best protection. Such nations were allowed to leave and we didn't shed a tear over their loss. Why is this not the same case?
Throughout all history nations have been able to vote with their feet. If an alliance does not represent your interests then they leave. I have no idea how many Legion members support the current Legion government or their Viceroy. However, I do know that without the ability to leave they are, in fact, prisoners to their own government. Why should the whole alliance be subject to the few who are willing to sacrifice for the alliance? I do not claim to know the details. I am not ODN government and I was not in the Legion. However, I think the facts speak for themselves.
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You may be right Branmir. I'm not sure about the exact specifics. If given the option between a complete alliance wide ZI and a viceroy I would have made the exact same decision they did. If bowing out gracefully was an option and allowing my members to go freely I am also sure I would have done that. I can not say with certainty what would have happened in that situation had I been in charge.
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Swampy and Solo lead Legion down the road, Pezstar pulled the bus over before it went off the cliff, but it was those who took over afterwards who drove off into oblivion.
I think a better analogy would be that Swampy and Thom drove the bus toward the cliff. Pezstar tried to evacuate the occupants of the bus. The guys that took over barred the emergency exits and then turned the bus around and drove them into a concentration camp.
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@ the OP, congratulations for having the guts to say what everyone else was thinking but not saying.
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Actually TOOL and GOONS always bugged me. It's basic English. You do not capitalize "small words" like "the", "and" and "of" unless they are at the beginning of the title. For example "The Order of the Paradox" is correctly abbreviated TOP. Federation of Armed Nations is correctly FAN. GOON Order of Neutral Shoving should be GONS and The Order of Light should be TOL.
Also, IRON has the coolest acronym in the game because it actually makes sense and sounds cool.
However, it is a little misleading that they call themselves the Independent Republic of Orange Nations when they are an oligarchy. I can forgive this though because when an acronym is that cool you have to use it whether it matches the government or not. Plus they are Orange and therefore awesome in every way.
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Another great alliance comes to the best sphere. Go to the Orange Unity Forums and get welcomed!
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SWEET! Eventually every orange alliance will be allied to each other. At that point we can just drop this charade and make an Orange Power Bloc.
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NpO is cool, Genesis is cool. Does this make cool squared?
Dear Legion
in Open World Forum
Posted
Or the fact that their leaders lied to them. Following the dove war Legion agreed not to mess with Valhalla. Thom and Swampy broke that and so they were not the leaders they represented themselves to be.
Also, I fail to see why you would hold democracy to a higher standard then, say a triumvirate. A leader is only a leader if people are following him. If you disagree with what your leaders do you leave. If you want out of \m/ you quit. You don't get a get out of jail free card just because you are in a non-democracy.
In a democracy, if your fellow members elect a member you don't feel is representing you, you vote with your feet and switch alliances. The members of Legion should get a chance to correct the mistake they made by electing Thom and leave. Except they can't leave, so Valhalla basically took away the democratic process and then decided to hold Legion to the standards of a system they no longer have.