Stetson76

We let xrated get hit by you guys as he originally raided you... This was the reason we attacked you tonight and that was really just me having fun and helping out a member you decided to tech raid. So, no, it's not defending the aggressor to stand up for ROWN. Thanks for playing though.

Glad to see you guys on the block. Here's to more purple awesomeness!!!

Love the new flag, and can't wait to get to know you guys better.

I have to say, I considered asking if we could just roll the PIAT between SNAFU and Tempest over when Hydra was formed, but decided that showing the world a renewal of our friendship would be so much more meaningful...little did I suspect that the "flavor" of the agreement wouldn't change. LOL I'm not sure who did the mixing and matching of our flags, and at first I was somewhat confused, but that is absolutely spectacular! Thank you, it conveys even more than the intentions of the treaty how I feel about our friends in Hydra. Hail Hydra! Hail SNAFU! Hail emerging from the Storm stronger than ever! (Great reference DEra, hope you don't mind my stealing it.) Hail purple for being such a wonderful home!

I love TMNT! Oh, and SNAFU too.

If the Stickmen want to join purple, I for one can say that SNAFU would love to see the additional trades and the more people the better to hang out with. I do have to ask about this though...

Welcome to purple guys! Congrats on the DoE and good luck.

Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! Zero Hour's just beginging! Sorry, I had to bust out and mutilate one of the greatest scenes in movie history when I saw Bluto was a part of this. DM, glad to see you get this off the ground. Good luck and most importantly have fun.

Then surrender and provide one less nation the NPO has to worry about not following orders. You're obviously not one of the "valued, long term members of their community" at least not currently, so cut them some slack and help them out. Either go into war mode, or leave. Either one helps them out.

So basically you're saying that you wouldn't live up to the terms that have been indefinitely offered? I've seen no shortage of Karma reps state that these are the terms take them or leave them. Now you're saying that "these are the terms, take them if we want to still give them to you, or leave them." After encouraging NPO to trust you guys through this thread, I guess I'll have to admit that I was wrong. I just hope, in a general sense, that the rest of Karma isn't as fluid in their ethics. In other words, you're right, you guys are no longer tadpoles, you've grown up to be big bad toads. And to Kingzog, how could you kick a cute little pup like this?

<Hi-Five> That's what I've been trying to say! LOL It could be shouted down, but the publicity of the terms and the availability of war declaations would seem to make that impossible to hide.

What about this doesn't make sense? The fact that you'd have to trust Karma to fulfill the terms they offered you? 'Cause if that's your rationale, you'll never accept any peace terms because you'll never be able to trust that Karma won't just jump your peace mode nations once you start to rebuild. So, got, it. NPO will not accept any peace terms that allow them to rebuild because they may get attacked by those untrustworthy Karma alliances. You're right, that makes a ton more sense. With bowed head and a humble heart I say "It's true James Dahl, you have shown me the error of my ways. From now on, I will emulate your fine example, because being right can only get me so far."[/sarcasm]

I never said they weren't, just that some of your nations might get a day or two of not being attacked while in war mode to reduce the ultimate damage a little bit. The terms that I read stated that upon signing the terms those nations that are in peace mode will be instructed to come out for 14 days of war. If they are not in peace mode when the terms are signed, there's no reason for them to come out and then be attacked. Cortath in the next post doesn't seem to have an issue understanding my logic. Okay, so finally someone addressed the fundamental issue with my proposal, the idea that the terms might be pulled if this plan is put into effect. It is interesting that the bolded part seems to say that you guys can get your peace mode nations out of peace same day, something that I thought was indefinitely impossible hence the reason I built in the additional time to the plan. That additional time is what Muffasamini says above that he has a problem with. But to the point of your reply...that Karma will pull the terms if you bring your banks out of peace mode to "play" the terms as written. That's definitely a risk and not one that I would take lightly either. The fact is though that they have stated many, many times that these are the terms, you either comply, or keep at war. At some point, you have to trust them. If they accept your counter proposal tomorrow and you bring your nations out of PM to begin to pay the reps, they can just attack them then. What's to stop them from doing that? The public perception and their own honor, the same things that would make them accept the terms that they presented to you using this plan. Bottom line, no matter what you'll have to trust them or not. If not, that's fine, then quit saying its an issue of the terms being impossible and just say that no matter what the terms are, you don't trust them and will fight forever. I'm sure your members would like to know that they have no chance of peace no matter what terms are handed down. Because under any terms, your peace mode nations will have to come out whether for "punishment" or to help pay off the reps. So, trust em now when it's in their self interest to appear honorable, or later when you've got no chance of rebuilding.

I have not been keeping track since day 1. What I am saying is that the terms as presented say nations that ARE in peace mode, not were, not will be, but are will be forced to come out of peace mode and submit to two additional weeks of war. If they come out of peace mode before the terms are signed, then they only have to suffer war for as long as it takes for NPO to accept the terms. Then, according the revised terms that George posted earlier, anyone who's still in peace mode once the terms have been signed would have 30 days to come out and face those two additional weeks of war. The fact is that the NPO could tell all of their peace mode nations to come out and then they can decide when they sign the terms so they can do it as soon as they get their banks out and they can avoid them taking two weeks worth of damage.

There would be no two weeks of war per nation if there were no nations in peace mode when the terms were signed. That's the whole point of this.

That's a good point System, but the montra in the 200 page thread was that the terms were there for NPO to accept or not whenever they decided to, so my belief is that they are still on the table.

So, the whole "we can't comply thing" was what?

Even if they were attacked immediately, they'd be out of peace mode, so they'd only have to take the hits until the terms were signed.

I'm not suggesting that they wouldn't notice a large number of nations coming out of peace mode merely that a few people may get a day or two of respit in war mode just like Kingzong suggested. The point of this is not to get everyone out of peace mode in stealth, the point is that NPO is not subject to the terms until they sign them. Therefore, nations who are not in peace mode when the terms are signed are not going to have to worry about the two weeks of additional war. This merely allows the NPO to control how long their nations are in war mode before they sign the terms. I would also, like to re-point out that if NPO had said "everyone out of the pool" and mandated that all of their peace mode nations cycled out, they would have at this point had more than the 90% of their peace mode nations log on and collect who could have conceivably changed their war/peace status. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin' to everyone who said it was impossible for them to hit that threshold due to the time of the year.

I hadn't seen the clarified terms posted, but this makes it even easier for them to use the idea I presented, get as many nations out of PM as they can, sign the terms and they just have to deal with the stragglers who have to put up with the two weeks of war within 30 days. Man, I'd be really pissed at my alliance leadership if they forced me to continue this fight when options like this exist.

I'm not suggesting anyone is stupid, I'm just saying that if a few of the 232 PM nations come out they may get a day or two without being attacked, further reducing the amount of damage they'd have to take in this scenario. I seem to recall a number of NPO nations claiming they came out of peace mode and went unmolested for a few days. But even if they were all jumped on imediately, they'd still take a lot less damage than the NPO forces are claiming they're afraid of waiting to reach 90% compliance. I'm surprised at you Haflinger, in all of your posts on this topic to this point seem to have been solidly in favor of NPO getting reduced terms. Here I'm suggesting a way for them to control their own destiny and in a perfect world allow them to only take 1 day of additional damage (although realistically, it would be a week or more, but absolutely no more than 2 weeks negating NPO's stated fear of never getting to 90%) and you're dismissing it out of hand.

I'm not even necessarily suggesting that they come out guns blazing. They can make it an internal announcement and hope that the Karma forces don't notice them coming out for a few days. It'd save even more money. I'm just saying that it's a way to weed out the ghosts and control how long they are at war which is something that they claimed was the major issue with the terms.

Congratulations to M*A*S*H. Despite not having "formal" ties outside of the PEACE treaty, I've always felt a kinship with you since we were the only PEACE only signatories. Looks like our exclusive club is expanding, but I'll continue to follow you guys with interest. Happy birthday from SNAFU, here's to many more!

I've done a lot of reading on the subject and haven't seen this posted in any of the threads I've read. And I'm one of the idiots who read every post in the 200+ page monster. NPO has a very simple way out of the two weeks of war. Bring all of your PM nations out before you sign the terms! I've taken the liberty of looking at NPO's PM nations. You can too NPO PM Nations. If they message all of their PM nations today and tell them that in 7 days time, everyone must be out peace mode one of two things is going to happen. Either everyone will come out, Happy Day, they can sign the terms immediately and beging paying back, or there will be straggelers that haven't complied in time. Those stragglers could have upwards of 2 weeks of additional time to come out without causing any further damage to the alliance than the terms have mandated already. There will be no excuse if they're not out by the time the two weeks is up, because they will have had to have logged on to collect taxes, or their nation would be gone. Either way it works out, NPO controls it's own destiny. The sooner they get everyone out of PM, the faster they can sign the terms, but they are in control regarding how much war Karma gets to inflict on them instead of being at Karma's mercy regarding the terms. Some in NPO might say, well we can't force people to come out of PM, but we don't want to kick them out...I'm sorry, if they have to log into their nation to collect taxes and they see a message that says, "come out for no more than 2 weeks, and we can promise it won't be more than that, because we're in control as to when we sign the surrender terms, or we as an alliance are screwed" and they don't, then they are not true members of your alliance and should be called what they are ghosts with forum access. If it's true that ALL of the nations in PM can only log on once every 19 days to collect and keep their nations active, then using the scenario I orginally outlined i.e. set the deadline to be out of PM in 7 days, only 59 PM Nations will have to fight more than 2 weeks worth of war! You control your own fate here. All you have to do is pull off what GATO was able to do and that is get all of your PM nations out before 3 weeks are up and you'll be able to wipe that surrender term right off the books. And even better, the banks that you're so concerned about that aren't the one's disobeying orders will be able to come out of PM the day before you sign the terms, so they won't even have to take so much damage. Oh, and just something I noticed when I was putting the spreadsheet together... If the NPO had told all of their PM nations to come out when the monster thread was first posted, enough PM nations would have logged in to make that happen already. I for one don't really care about the NPO, but I'm posting this "way out" for them so that they can get out of the war and our friends at TPF can get peace. Hope someone listens to that can happen.

Congrats guys! I hope to be hearing great things from you soon.