[Howdy IAA and ZDP]

Mhawk, would you recognize the timeline I have posted of the logs - with factual logs - as the truth? If so, could you please edit your initial post. If not, could you point out what you consider as wrong?

Sangar had no trouble understanding English. None whatsoever.

[Howdy IAA and ZDP]

Interesting take, Mhawk. I take it you have seen the logs and are trying to preventively spin the facts here. We were waiting for NEW's response to our peace offer before posting anything; they have asked for 24 hours and still have 7 hours to go. Since you took the liberty to preemptively frame the debate, as their ally, we will correct a few points and provide clear logs.

OOC: English not being their first language can hardly be used as an excuse in this case: we spoke with their MoFA who has a more than correct mastery of the English language. Also, I am not a native English speaker myself. I'd like to note that the time of the logs are EST (CN+1).

------

As anyone can see here, the first raid was launched by yoyoabc on Brother Kane in the early morning of the 14th of December.

As such, as we woke up, we went to NEW to ask for peace and token reparations. We talked with Aming (OOC: who was OP in their IRC chan and OPs are gov't) but found out he was only a founding member and currently held no government position. A minute later, Sangar (their MoFA) joined us in discussing a peaceful resolution. At that point, I asked Aming if he could leave the room since he was being, in our eyes, counter-productive. Logs leading to that go as follow:

03[11:13] * sangar[NEW] (XXXX@XXXX) has joined #zdp

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> hahahaha i understand

01[11:14] <Yevgeni> Now, Sanger, I was just informed by AMING here (codename: bro) that you are gov't. Am I right?

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> better for ZDP find protectorate bro

01[11:14] <Yevgeni> Sangar, pardon.

[11:14] <sangar[NEW]> yes i am

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> yes he is gov

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> but becareful

[11:14] <sangar[NEW]> ssup?

01[11:14] <Yevgeni> May I know what is your official gov't position?

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> he is maniak

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> he like butt very much

[11:14] <sangar[NEW]> patih amancanegara

[11:15] <Brother-Kane> All I'm asking for is reparations for the damages done by yoyoabc

[11:15] <Brother-Kane> It's against my morals to allow someone to profit at my expense

[11:15] <sangar[NEW]> it's MOFA for you

01[11:15] <Yevgeni> Ah, good.

01[11:15] <Yevgeni> Yep, BK put it in a more succinct way.

01[11:15] <Yevgeni> One of your guys decided to raid us.

01[11:15] <Yevgeni> We don't put up with raiders.

[11:16] <Brother-Kane> It was in NEW that attacked me during the VA war.

[11:16] <Brother-Kane> I'm guessing he did it for old times' sake.

[11:16] <AMING[NEW]> VA?

[11:16] <AMING[NEW]> what is that?

01[11:16] <Yevgeni> Veritas Aequitas

[11:16] <Brother-Kane> I was at war with VA two months ago, and your alliance backed them up.

[11:16] <Brother-Kane> yoyoabc is the guy who attacked me

[11:16] <AMING[NEW]> you raid VA?

[11:17] <Brother-Kane> No

[11:17] <Brother-Kane> It was an actual war

01[11:17] <Yevgeni> Aming, assuming you're not gov't nor useful, do you mind leaving?

[11:17] <AMING[NEW]> yevgeni your statement make me filing not good

[11:18] <AMING[NEW]> you ask me to came here

[11:18] <AMING[NEW]> and i try to help

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> Assuming you were gov't.

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> As it says in your chan.

[11:18] <AMING[NEW]> yes i am

[11:18] <sangar[NEW]> well AMING[NEW] may not in this govt, but think he belongs here

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> Fine.

I may not have used an appropriate language and I will easily recognize that. Nonetheless, we thought the matter was settled as Sangar insisted that he should stay and we agreed.

For Aming, it wasn't, it seems. He would continue to dwell on that.

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> Fine.

[11:18] <sangar[NEW]> since you're invite him here

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> So, to cut things short, one of your guys has decided to raid Brother-Kane.

[11:19] <sangar[NEW]> link pls

[11:19] <Brother-Kane> http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...ation_ID=105213

[11:19] <Brother-Kane> http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...ation_ID=158121

01[11:19] <Yevgeni> We do not appreciate it at all, especially since we're just out of a war (as of yesterday) and we demand reps.

[11:19] <AMING[NEW]> i know yoyo very much since he is my real life friend. your statement make me fill not good

[11:19] <Brother-Kane> Why is that?

[11:19] <AMING[NEW]> not you bk

[11:19] <AMING[NEW]> but yevgeni

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> i am out

01[11:21] <Yevgeni> Ciao.

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> i cannot help anymore

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> for sure no reps will be paid

[11:21] <sangar[NEW]> well

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> i promise

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> alltough i am not gov

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> if you dont like just attack yoyo with nuke i think he will enjoy it

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> good luck

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> sangar we go out

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> npw

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> now

03[11:22] * AMING[NEW] (XXXX@XXXX) has left #zdp

As such, we were back with Sangar to discuss about that single raid on Brother Kane. Here are the logs of the rest of the discussion. I bolded the parts we find as relevant.

01[11:22] <Yevgeni> So, Sangar, what's your word?

[11:22] <sangar[NEW]> first

[11:23] <sangar[NEW]> this is nothing todo or related with VA war as your assuming

[11:23] <Brother-Kane> No, I know it's not

[11:23] <sangar[NEW]> it's simply a raid

[11:23] <sangar[NEW]> 2x GA and PO

[11:24] <Brother-Kane> Yes, and I'm asking for reparations for that since we are an independent alliance. If we allow raids to go off without a problem it will invite others.

[11:24] <Brother-Kane> I'm not asking for a large amount of money, just enough to cover the cost.

[11:24] <sangar[NEW]> but i don't think i can make it happens

[11:25] <sangar[NEW]> you are an independent alliance

01[11:26] <Yevgeni> You do understand that, barring reparations, this "tech raid" will become a week long war between yoyoabc and BK.

01[11:26] <Yevgeni> Exact?

[11:26] <sangar[NEW]> that would be fine as long as you'll keep it that way

[11:27] <sangar[NEW]> no one will intervere

[11:27] <Brother-Kane> Sounds good.

01[11:27] <Yevgeni> We're fine with it, then.

[11:27] <Brother-Kane> I'll talk directly to yoyoabc before I retaliate to see if he will agree to reparations.

[11:27] <Brother-Kane> But if he refuses then I will fight back

[11:29] <sangar[NEW]> but i have to tell you that an alliance bellow 10 is a legal raid target in NEW

01[11:30] <Yevgeni> Well, we probably would be more than 10 if we wouldn't get raided every day of the week.

01[11:30] <Yevgeni> Especially right when we're just out of a war against GOONS, NpO and MK.

[11:30] <sangar[NEW]> maybe

01[11:30] <Yevgeni> Also, while your level is at 10

01[11:30] <Yevgeni> Others will raid us even if we're 20 or 25

[11:30] <sangar[NEW]> well just like aming say bedore : you should have arelation or a protector

01[11:31] <Yevgeni> We have good relations with a handful of alliances.

01[11:31] <Yevgeni> We just don't believe in treaties.

[11:31] <sangar[NEW]> if you have a relation

[11:31] <sangar[NEW]> you should tell us

[11:32] <sangar[NEW]> or put it in you nation bio

[11:32] <sangar[NEW]> it's a common

01[11:33] <Yevgeni> Yes and no. Just understand that, should you decide to escalate things further, we will not be alone.

[11:33] <sangar[NEW]> hey

[11:33] <sangar[NEW]> it's just a raid

[11:33] <sangar[NEW]> you're the one who escalating things here

01[11:34] <Yevgeni> I'm not.

01[11:34] <Yevgeni> I'm pointing things out.

[11:34] <sangar[NEW]> don't turn it up side down

[11:34] <sangar[NEW]> and we can't pay reps

[11:34] <sangar[NEW]> for a legal raid target

01[11:34] <Yevgeni> Yeah, we got that already. BK will retaliate on yoyo anyway.

01[11:34] <Yevgeni> So yoyo will have made zero profit. Which suits us fine.

[11:34] <sangar[NEW]> at my point of view it is you who escalating things

01[11:35] <Yevgeni> By doing what?

[11:35] <sangar[NEW]> by emanding reps

01[11:35] <Yevgeni> Are you serious?

[11:35] <Brother-Kane> Demanding reparations isn't escalating things, it's the opposite.

[11:36] <Brother-Kane> We can avoid hundreds of millions of dollars in damages with only a bit of technology

[11:36] <sangar[NEW]> no, demanding reps its fine if the raid is illegal

01[11:36] <Yevgeni> An escalation, considering your member declared war on one of ours, would be to retaliate en masse or make it nuclear without trying diplomacy.

[11:36] <Brother-Kane> I consider it illegal

01[11:36] <Yevgeni> It's illegal by your own standards. Understand that your charter isn't international law.

01[11:36] <Yevgeni> legal*

01[11:37] <Yevgeni> To us, the legality of your tech raid isn't important. We would ask for reparations anyway.

[11:37] <sangar[NEW]> no one charter is international law

01[11:38] <Yevgeni> Then the legalist argument cannot stand.

[11:39] <sangar[NEW]> so be it

01[11:40] <Yevgeni> In short, we agree that this war will be maintained a mano-a-mano fight between BK and yoyoabc, right?

[11:41] <sangar[NEW]> in that case, yeah....

01[11:41] <Yevgeni> Good. In that case, good day to you.

[11:41] <sangar[NEW]> we're just doing a raid, that's all

[11:42] <sangar[NEW]> Salute!

01[11:42] <Yevgeni> I really can't see why you would refuse to settle this with reps considering it will be much more costly for you now.

01[11:42] <Yevgeni> But sure, salute!

In our (OOC: PB time) time, that means we had reached an agreement to keep the fight to a 1v1 by 10:42. I think everyone can agree, here, that Sangar knew full well what we meant. Heck, he even said it himself: "we will not intervene".

However, barely thirty minutes later, NEW would break their word as another member, Aming, would declare on Brother Kane at 11:15. Again, it is easy to verify.

We then went to speak with Sangar but he was absent. We proceeded to talk to gantaX, their acting Prime Minister and Sangar's superior as we understood it.

Here are the logs of that discussion:

Session Start: Mon Dec 14 12:26:53 2009

Session Ident: gantanX

01[12:26] <Yevgeni> Present?

[12:27] <gantanX> hello

[12:27] <gantanX> yes, i am here

[12:27] <gantanX> how can i help you mate ?

01[12:27] <Yevgeni> Just to clarify, what is your position in NEW?

[12:27] <gantanX> i am mahapatih

[12:27] <gantanX> it's prime minister

01[12:28] <Yevgeni> Excellent.

01[12:28] <Yevgeni> Sangar just logged off at a very unfortunate moment, it seems.

[12:28] <gantanX> yes, it is almost 1.oo a.m here

01[12:28] <Yevgeni> About 45 minutes ago, next to an hour, we started negotiations with Sangar.

01[12:29] <Yevgeni> One of your members, yoyoabc, decided to raid one of our members, Brother-Kane. We hail from the Zombie Defense Plan.

01[12:29] <Yevgeni> Naturally, we came to Sangar and demanded reps. Mostly symbolic ones, to cover for the losses incurred by 2 GAs on BK.

[12:29] <gantanX> yes, i just notice that too

[12:29] <gantanX> i see

01[12:29] <Yevgeni> We were told that no reps would be given.

01[12:30] <Yevgeni> But that BK could fight yoyoabc with all tools at his disposal and that the fight wouldn't be interrupted. That it would be kept a 1v1.

01[12:30] <Yevgeni> That you guys wouldn't intervene at all.

01[12:30] <Yevgeni> (We've got the logs if you want them.)

01[12:30] <Yevgeni> Now, barely 20 minutes after that, it seems that yoyoabc's friend, Aming, has declared on Brother-Kane as well.

[12:31] <gantanX> well, i just read the chat log

[12:32] <gantanX> i believe that is true mate

[12:32] <gantanX> yoyoabc was raiding on BK and per NEW rules

[12:32] <gantanX> we wont pay any reps to any valid raid target per our standard

[12:32] <gantanX>

01[12:32] <Yevgeni> The absence of reparations isn't the problem.

[12:32] <gantanX> however BK have his right to fully retaliate to the raider

01[12:32] <Yevgeni> We were assured by your MoFA

01[12:33] <Yevgeni> That the fight would be kept a gentlemen's affair: a one on one business between yoyoabc and Brother-Kane.

01[12:33] <Yevgeni> Or, Aming has just declared war against Brother-Kane.

01[12:33] <Yevgeni> (Scratch that "or", put "however" )

[12:35] <gantanX> idk what sangAr mean by not intervering, however i believe AMING is "also" raiding BK,

[12:35] <gantanX> i will ask sangAr for more detail as soon as he's online

01[12:35] <Yevgeni> Well, no !@#$ that "he's also raiding".

01[12:35] <Yevgeni> He's helping his teammate.

01[12:36] <Yevgeni> Not intervening is pretty straight forward.

[12:36] <gantanX> well, from my point of view, AMING and yoyoabc was just raiding BK..and it is legal per NEW charter

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> Yoyoabc was indeed raiding BK

[12:37] <gantanX> like i said, BK has the right to fully retaliate even with nukes

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> We negotiated with Sangar

[12:37] <gantanX> however we wont pay any reps on behalf of yoyoabc and AMING

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> Sangar promised that no intervention would happen

[12:37] <gantanX> or you may negotiate personally with yoyoabc for the reps

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> THEN Aming declared war.

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> Therefore intervening

01[12:38] <Yevgeni> Therefore not respecting Sangar's word at all.

[12:38] <gantanX> like i said AMING was just raiding not launching a full scale attack on BK, maybe that's what sangAr mean by intervening ( a full scale of attack)

01[12:38] <Yevgeni> Rofl.

01[12:39] <Yevgeni> This is ridiculous.

[12:39] <gantanX> ridiculous ??

01[12:40] <Yevgeni> Indeed. You're trying to spin "not intervening". It's probably the most straight forward concept on this bloody game.

01[12:40] <Yevgeni> No offense but that's quite something.

[12:43] <gantanX> yes, but sangAr is not here atm, so i assume when he said by not intervening it mean not launching a full sclae attack on BK..

[12:43] <gantanX> i'll contact him for more details when he;s online

01[12:44] <Yevgeni> I believe the logs clearly show that I stated, on more than one occasion, that it meant keeping the war limited to a 1v1.

01[12:44] <Yevgeni> I said it three times at least and he agreed every time.

[12:46] <gantanX> did sangAr said clearly that it will be a 1 vs 1 fight between yoyoabc and BK ?

01[12:46] <Yevgeni> Yes, read the logs!

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> [11:26] <Yevgeni> You do understand that, barring reparations, this "tech raid" will become a week long war between yoyoabc and BK.

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> [11:26] <Yevgeni> Exact?

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> [11:26] <sangar[NEW]> that would be fine as long as you'll keep it that way

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> [11:27] <sangar[NEW]> no one will intervere

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> 11:26 my time = 10:26 for the game.

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> Which means near a full hour before Aming actually declared war.

[12:48] <gantanX> well, reading the logs i dont see that sangAr said that it will be 1 vs 1 fight between yoyoabc and bK

01[12:48] <Yevgeni> I just pointed them out to you.

[12:52] <gantanX> yes, i know but i dont sangAr said that no one will raid BK too

[12:52] <gantanX> because like i said per our rules, ZDP is a valid raid target, and you have the right to fully retaliate

01[12:52] <Yevgeni> No one will intervene?

01[12:53] <Yevgeni> What the bloody hell is an intervention, then?

[12:53] <gantanX> i did expalain to you maybe what sangAr mean by no one intervene was : "no one will launch a full scale attack on BK"

01[12:53] <Yevgeni> If not a declaration of war on BK. Just because you call it a tech raid doesn't change the fact that Aming did intervene and is helping his friend.

[12:53] <gantanX> AMING was just raiding. it's up to BK to peace him out or not

01[12:53] <Yevgeni> Is that your official position, for real?

[12:54] <gantanX> well, you could always ask BK to peace out AMING and keep the war between him and yoyo

01[12:54] <Yevgeni> ...

01[12:54] <Yevgeni> Wow.

01[12:54] <Yevgeni> I've heard it all.

01[12:54] <Yevgeni> Fine, we'll contact you later on, I need a pause from that.

[12:55] <gantanX> yes, as long as ZDP is our valid raid target we cant prevent our member not to raid ZDP

01[13:09] <Yevgeni> Oh btw

01[13:09] <Yevgeni> Aming just spied on BK

01[13:09] <Yevgeni> Destroyed 10M of his cash reserves

01[13:09] <Yevgeni> Still a raid?

[13:13] <gantanX|sleep> i am sorry i was just about to sleep

[13:13] <gantanX|sleep> about the spy i just noticed that too

01[13:14] <Yevgeni> Still a raid and not an intervention?

[13:14] <gantanX|sleep> i will disscuss this matter and assure that we will deal with AMING internally

01[13:14] <Yevgeni> Not enough for us.

[13:14] <gantanX|sleep> what do you want then ?

01[13:15] <Yevgeni> His attack will have to be ceased. Reps will have to be paid, evidently, and the 1v1 war between BK and yoyoabc be allowed to go on.

01[13:15] <Yevgeni> Really undisturbed this time.

[13:17] <gantanX|sleep> i am sorry i cant promise you that...

[13:17] <gantanX|sleep> btw, really man, it's 1. am here, can i contact you tommorow ?

01[13:17] <Yevgeni> Considered that you people reneged on your own word in less than 20 mins, doing two unprovoked attacks on us...

01[13:17] <Yevgeni> I believe we're being really reasonable.

01[13:18] <Yevgeni> Sure you can.

[13:18] <gantanX|sleep> ok thank you ..

01[13:18] <Yevgeni> But we will have to take measures until then.

[13:18] <gantanX|sleep> goodluck and HF

01[13:18] <Yevgeni> To limit the damage.

Session Close: Mon Dec 14 13:33:48 2009

gantaX, as can be seen, tried to spin it not once but twice: first by saying that Sangar, when he agreed that NEW wouldn't intervene, meant "wouldn't intervene with full scale attacks". Second by saying that Aming's attack wasn't an intervention but a second raid on Brother Kane.

Considering Aming had also used spy operations to destroy the monetary reserves of Brother Kane, as can be seen here, gantaX' interpretation cannot stand: Aming was fully intervening on the behalf of his friend and ally and it wasn't a raid.

But we weren't done. Before we did anything, another NEW member would declare on Brother Kane. This time it was "Sweet Chin".

Considering that we had been lied to, that reparations were out of the window (see gantaX logs) and that those attacks were clearly not raids (the use of spy operations), we decided we would support our member Brother Kane by attacking his raiders.

Jaymay15 declared on the three attackers, in support of Brother Kane. We felt it was a perfectly legitimate response to their behaviour.

It was then that NEW chose again to escalate this into a full blown war. gantaX (OOC: who had just logged on) decided to retaliate on Jaymay. The timeline of the attacks can be seen by anyone. Considering that, we authorized our members to fully retaliate on NEW. Still, we concentrated almost all of our attacks on the "first offenders", the three pseudo raiders.

Early this morning, we approached NEW and tried to reach a peaceful resolution. We feel we have been very reasonable through this whole affair.

We tried peace. They refused it.

We took them on their word. They broke it.

We kept our retaliation measures to their raiders. They escalated it by adding more warriors to the battle.

Our peace offer goes as follow:

Immediate white peace for all belligerents and a sum of 18 millions to be paid to Brother Kane for the two spy operations launched by Aming against him.

NEW still has seven hours to give us their official response.

[U after G, except after C...]

As a native French speaker, I never understood how someone could make such a mistake (save for typos, obviously): the pronounciation is so different, it makes no sense at all to confuse the two.

[Because everyone else is doing it.]

Doitzel and the Arrowheadian said it best.

Vox was a product of its time; it was needed back then, now something different is. After such a drastic change of scenery, people took time to adjust. The pieces had to fall into place, there was some roughing up between all the blocs. I think the next months will see more moves being made, as shakers get tired of this new order of sorts. Public opinion seems to be switching, event after event, to tolerance towards a more aggressive approach to conflicts. One may argue that we have seen a lot of "hippy backlash" but, back during the Q years, all the conflicts of late would have simply been settled behind closed doors, in private IRC rooms. It was simply another kind of peace.

[GOONS announcement]

That much from 8 nations? Jeez I can see things haven't changed. I mean it's not a whole lot, but more than I would expect.

We would evidently have prefered a white peace but we came to a compromise that truly did satisfy both protagonists.

It will be settled in less than a month and we will be able to look on rebuilding. It's nothing outrageous, especially when you consider that Jack Diorno, himself, has as much to pay (save for the small tech part).

We are glad to have achieved a state of peace with GOONS and their allies. We also salute our friends in RLMMO and wish them well on the path they have chosen to take.

[Tabloid Tribune #153 | NPO ICA]

"To the Staff of the Tabloid Tribune,

We, assembled Zombies, take offense at some of the advices you gave to your readers, regarding a Zombie Apocalypse. First of all, the Zombie invasion is a reality and it has nothing to do with an Apocalypse. Second, possessing self-will, we know how to use stairs. Third, we firmly believe mankind has failed in bringing any kind of global peace. We will succeed where your species have failed.

Regards,

An annoyed undead reader,"

[The Order of the Paradox Announcement]

It looks like SGC's below-the-belt electoral tactics have paid off.

Hail to your new government, livings.

[Announcement from GOONS]

tl;dr:

-British accent;

-Glorious beard;

-Jack Diorno is free to join any alliance he may choose, he won't be protected and he will have to pay 60m in reps in 60 days to GOONS;

-GOONS-ZDP are declaring a 48 hour ceasefire, starting on Friday's update (that is last update);

-GOONS allies have agreed to respect that ceasefire;

-Any member in good standing joining ZDP during that time will be covered by the ceasefire;

-Amazing song by Lamuella.

Don't think I've missed much.

[Is "friendship" really a great basis for treaties and politics?]

Quite really, it is only natural to try to claim the moral high ground and defend good values, at least officially. That's part of the propaganda, just like it is in real life. Here, key elements, in times of war, are: are you seen as the aggressor AND is it seen as a move dictated by realpolitik. These days, those two points are not welcome at all. Yes, "defending friends" is all the rage since the noCB War, that's part of MK's very successful propaganda campaign and the heritage it has left us. Doesn't mean it's not true in some cases, on an IC basis.

Still, as long as role-playing will be so limited, IC friendship will have a lot to do with what you described in your first post: sending a few people, acting cool, hanging around, answering a few questions, etc. Considering most alliances don't really have a theme (or don't do anything with it, besides cleverly named titles or treaties with puns), I'm not too sure what else is there to find. You would need more people really role-playing to find meaningful IC friendships.

[Announcement from GOONS]

I think I know the song, is this it?

Totally worked.

Great announcement, GOONS. I laughed.

[Declaraction of War]

You're being unreasonable because you want to make ZDP pay, what was it? 300 mil?

Just to clarify, BE, that was indeed very close to the number we were first approached with but it has since gone down much.

Obviously, if they want to make a satisfying compromise, they need to start a bit higher than what would be reasonable.

[Things You Have Wanted To Do But Never Done]

I've mostly done what I have wanted so far. I've been a top government official of a relatively important alliance, rerolled twice, joined Vox, spied on some alliances in a lazy way, fought the NPO twice, helped found an alliance, etc.

I think all players should always have new aims and work towards them to keep this game interesting, instead of being stuck as nameless numbers in another mass-member alliance, waiting for others to shake things up. Guess I was guilty of that too, though.

My next step would probably be to make sure that new alliance grows.

I have done everything you list in the OP and anything else that I have ever wanted to do in CN. And I have done it my way.

And Sinatra started singing...

[Erebus DoE]

Very glad to see it done, friends.

Good luck with your project,

[Declaraction of War]

I'm far from giving lessons here...I'm giving an opposing stance. You fine gentlemans are attempting to erode the foundation of Bob when trying to do away with treaties. I'm simply providing an excellent example of why they're necessary. It's rational, whereas your stance is irrational.

OOC (A very last one, I guess):

There is no rationality in your argument. It's essentially: "we have a treaty so it is IC, you don't have a treaty to intervene so it is OOC". It doesn't make any sense at all. A treaty doesn't define IC friendship. You're so far off, it's laughable.

[Declaraction of War]

How does a nation have 'friends'? Especially 'friends' that they're willing to go into nuclear war in protection of without some form of treaty?

Something tells me the population of your nation is a bit worried about the stability of their leadership.

OOC, last post on the matter since it is seriously ridiculous:

You do know that, when you made your nation, you also made a "ruler". As such, when you are role-playing, you are your nation's ruler, not merely a nation. Many famous characters have existed, on Planet Bob, relatively outside of the limits of their own nation: Schattenmann being a good example.

Few people, if any, actually role-play a nation for it is a very long process where you (can) have not ont but virtually an unlimited number of characters.

As it is, people in this realm usually role-play their ruler, as the official representative of their nation and its politics. As such, our (Khyber and I) numerous conversations with RLMMO over the years, regarding IC matters, have left us with a very good impression of them, an impression that translated into financial and military support when it came to it. The worst you could accuse us of would be of secret diplomacy because we didn't announce our mutual friendship to the world. If you want to do that, be my guest.

Frankly, though, I'm not entirely sure you should be giving role-play lessons. Our entrance in this war was perfectly IC, as is our friendship with RLMMO.

[Declaraction of War]

[OOC]The 'friends' part is what makes the in-game attack 'OOC'. This was clearly the reasoning behind ZDF's entry into the fray.[/OOC]

OOC: Wait, you guys are serious? By the way, it's ZDP.

They're our "IC" friends. I don't know any of them, outside this realm. We talk of OOC, as well as IC things, just like most friends on this game do.

Seriously, claiming the OOC card is, by far, the most ridiculous line I've seen from you guys in two already loaded topics.

So, you have a treaty with them? What kind of 'links' are you referring to?

We don't need a treaty to express or define friendship. Actually, friendship should be a prerequisite to any treaty.

As for the links, we've been close to RLMMO since their first protectorate agreement with Echelon, an alliance we were part of (for Khy, gov't of). When developed close individual friendships with many of them and, as such, when we moved to TOP, Khyber made sure RLMMO would be signed as a protectorate. It was later dropped for various reasons that are unrelated to this topic.

When we formed, we made sure they knew where we stood.

Yep, friendship. IC.

[Declaraction of War]

I suppose that depends on your definition of 'supported'. As has been clarified time and time again (yet ignored for the purposes of arguing the legitimacy of RLMMO's war declaration), nations risk their own NS when techraiding. A techraid gone bad will be handled by that nation and that nation alone. It is a responsibility that lies SOLELY on the nation doing the raid.

If you claim - as your colleagues have - that we do not know how you would have reacted should RLMMO have tried peace, you can't claim at the same time that all tech raids are handled by that nation and that nation alone. There is no telling how you would have reacted to a three-on-one retaliation on that nation.

My bet - and it's pure speculation - is that you would have offered peace. RLMMO would have refused it. You would have interpreted their refusal and counter-attacks as attacks on your alliance, outside the realm of a "tech raid".

I've seen raiders being left to face a responsive raided nation, in a 1v1. I've rarely seen a 3v1 go on against a raider for a week.

But hey, we can't tell, as it is. As it stands, you supported the raider.

[OOC] People fail to realize how ludicrous the concept of 'military aid due to friendship' really is. As we're all aware of previous instances of 'OOC attacks' that have been condemned by the majority of nations on Bob (and rightfully so), to come to military aid of a nation due to 'friendship' is, in itself, an OOC attack.[/OOC]

I had a good chuckle at this one. I hope you're not serious because we can easily prove our individual links to RLMMO, dating back to March '08 and before and those were IC.

[Declaraction of War]

Khyber asked AFTER RLMMO HAD TURNED THIS INTO A NUCLEAR WAR

Either that is a lie or you are refering to the tech raid-gone wrong, in which case it is the right of the raided to counter with nuclear weapons, isn't it?

We engaged in diplomacy the very first day, admittedly after you had started your blitz. Same for Kronos.

His DoW on GOONS over a 1v1 tech raid is admirable but still exactly what it is.

The ZDP DoWed GOONS for their blitz on RLMMO, in defense of the latter.

I will call that an unprovoked and opportunist attack and as such I will defend my ally. You will note that I do not defend tech raiding, I am not defending GOONS in their matters arising from the actual tech raid, but rather the unprovoked attack from Khyber's Zombies.

Interesting. It's exactly why we entered in this war and our interpretation of the GOONS actions.

Since I'm sure you don't think Khyber is a fool, I'm wondering why you use "opportunist(ic)" as an adjective to describe his retaliation: he knew full well some allies of GOONS would counter him (or raiders). We didn't expect Polaris but that hardly makes it an opportunist move if you know that your actions will not benefit you in any way.

This is not GOONS picking on the little man, this is RLMMO and ZDP's martyr complex acting up.

Martyr complex? What is it your martyr complex acting up when you joined Vox? What about Polar's allies in the WotC? Did their involvement, in what was sure to be a curbstomp or a really one-sided war, was about a martyr complex?

The only difference, here, is the size of the protagonists. You're better than that, Moridin. We're not in this to be martyrs, we're looking for a peaceful solution, just like we've been looking before.

[Kap Bambino Declaration of War]

do I have to tattoo the words "HE IS NOT PZI'D" on my forehead before the illiterate chumps in the peanut gallery notice it?

Wasn't Jack named an Enemy of GOONS, essentially your home definition of a PZI list? Considering the wording of your charter, it means he has, indeed, been put on a "PZI list". Now, you may or may not carry on with that threat.

[Declaraction of War]

You misunderstand what a treaty is supposed to mean.

The fact is that treaties are the established order of things. If you do not have a treaty with someone, and you join them in a battle, you will be accused of bandwaggoning, and shamed and shunned. Treaties are meant to be honored, and an alliance is meant to do what it thinks is right, not use the weight of their allies. A treaty is merely a formal declaration of a long standing friendship between or among alliances, or it should be.

Treaties are what make the world go round, or blow up, as it were.

It is a bit off topic and OOC, I believe, but treaties do not come with this game. They were a creation of the first alliances, who brought with them their ways from another game that shall not be named.

A world can live without treaties. We can prosper without them even if, for now, it appears that it is a risky gamble that will bring war to our doorsteps. There is no difference between defending a friend with or without a treaty. If anything, removing treaties from the equation will/could perhaps help reduce the curbstomps to more even fights. Chaining treaties have been used, for years, as convenient excuses to bandwagon in already uneven fights.

As for the rest, I doubt we would be shunned or shamed. So far, the comments have been mostly positive.

[Declaraction of War]

There is a vast difference between "needing" and "obtaining".

In this case, you did need help and it's understandable; you only had one nation powerful enough to engage Khyber and that nation was rather ill prepared.

It was only logical of you to ask for some limited support. There is no shame to be had in using a sound strategy.

[Declaraction of War]

Xavii, we're not rogues.

We perhaps have yet to announce our DoE - a delay with our charter - but we are definitely an alliance per Planet Bob's standards. Wouldn't it be for this war, a dozen or so of nations would be flying our colours.

If we had wanted to go rogue, we wouldn't have done so in defense of our friends. We hope to achieve peace in the coming weeks and resume the construction of our project.

[The Communes Bring In The Harvest]

Congratulations comrades.

May this be the first of many!

[Announcement from the desk of the custodial engineer third class]

We have called no one. People who are joining in are friends who are doing exactly what you are doing to RLMMO having war fun with friends. They want sweet action too

I guess you completly missed the point: you guys were going all mighty about how our puny alliances wouldn't be able to inflict even an ounce of damage at your alliance: yet, you call (or they enter on your behalf, if you prefer, it changes absolutely nothing to the fact that they're fighting along your side) one of the most powerful alliances on Planet Bob to your help. We're not complaining that they decided to join in, we're simply pointing out that you needed help in a fight against us.

Also, if they are doing exactly what we are doing, surely they will be able to produce a DoW in proper form, yes? We would appreciate if that courtesy, shown to belligerents in any conflict, was extended to us.

[Announcement from the desk of the custodial engineer third class]

hypothetical:

I join Sparta, I have malice intentions from the start. I get in and when I become full member I tech raid Npo, Umbrella, And TOP. Now should those alliance announce DoW on Sparta? Nah, I'm the one to get rolled not the alliance.

But you are saying this is what your logic should allow.

Tech raiding is going to go on if you like it or not. I'm certain GOONS are not the only tech raiders out there too.

You say that but forget the end result and the logical conclusion: assuming you're a Spartan and you declare war on NpO, Umbrella and TOP, what will these alliances probably do (we've seen other reactions, GW I was started by a nuke, no?)?

They will tell your alliance: expel this member so we can make him face consequences. If Sparta refuses to comply, what will be the next logical course of action? Umbrella-NpO-TOP will declare war on Sparta. The underlying premise here is that the alliance will face consequences if they do not surrender their member. Which means: alliances are responsible for the actions of their members.