Improvement/wonder

[swazz]

What is better

barracks or poilice HQ?

what is the best wonder for the cost economic wise?

The great university raises pop happines plus 2 for every one thousand.

so since i have 25K working citizens would my happiness go up by 50?

[Veritas]

Police headquarters are muuuuch better than barracks, and you still need atleast another 1k inf before thinking about wonders. However the great university is +2 happiness per 1,000 tech not citizens. Your first wonder should be either disaster relief for the extra aid slot and that tech dealin goodness or stock market, or potentialy Social security system aswell.

-Veritas

[myruler]

Police HQ, no question.

[TheBFG]

The great university raises pop happines plus 2 for every one thousand.

so since i have 25K working citizens would my happiness go up by 50?

for every thousand tech (over 200).... not citz. So don't even think about this, it's between the 7th and 10th Wonder you would get, depending on tech level. Also, it cuts out at 3000 tech, so the maximum increase is 5.6 happiness (so potentially it gives you more than any other wonder, but you need a top-180 amount of tech to make it that way).

First Wonder to get is a SM, followed by a SSS and a IS, and if aid slots are important throw in a DRA - any of that is well before you even need to think about a GU.

[US of Europe]

First Wonder to get is a SM, followed by a SSS and a IS, and if aid slots are important throw in a DRA - any of that is well before you even need to think about a GU.

According to my own calculations and sheets the SSS is in most scenario's (read: in all, but I don't want to exlude the slight possibility there may be one scenario when the SM is better)better than a SM, so I would place the SSS as first, and SM as second. The difference may not be much, but still significant enough to go for the SSS as first. I compare them on two aspects. The first is profit it generates daily, and the second is how long it will take before the wonder generated more than it cost in the first place. Though this last number (Break-Even-Point) very much depends on economic set-up of each nation, and therefore also partly the age of each nation (as this is more or less indirectly related with amount of infrastructure, population income, etc). For example, while I bought my first wonder, the difference in the BEP's only was 0.1 days. However, after the BEP, the SSS made significant more money.

On this moment my BEP for the SSS would be 58.8 days, while the BEP for a SM is 60.7 days. The difference in daily income is around ~ $200,000.00. So despite the higher cost (and it may very well take 10 more days before a nation is capable of buying the SSS instead of the SM), a SSS is always worth the investment and will return more money on your investment. (though I can't calculate this number exactly for any nation, assume that I'm a small nation, just beginning to buy wonders, and make $2,000,000.00 daily (after bills). It would take me 8 days more to buy the SSS (difference is 15,000,000.00). If I buy the SM, I will begin to make profit out of it after 61 days. If I buy the SSS, I begin to make profit after 58 days.

For the first case, I will have 8 days more when I will be collecting, while I would be saving money here in the second case. So the daily income improvement of the SM are multiplied by 8, to compensate this effect (worth around 3,000,000.00). However, the differences in daily income between the SM and SSS are around 200k (assume 150k for smaller nations), which would only take 20 days. In total, after ~80 days, the differences between the SSS and SM are reduced to zero and the SSS will make more money.

As a conclusion, if you want to make a profit within 80 days, and are searching for the largest return within 80 days, I would go for the SM. However, on the long term, after these 80 days (or 90 days, or 100 days), the SSS will always make more money, and this difference will continue to increase. Of course, it can also be calculated what happens if you buy the SM, and one month later buy the SSS, or if you first buy the SSS and one month later the SM, though the conclusion will be the same: if you first buy the SSS instead of the SM your profit will be larger. Though I've seen many debates about this, all of these turned out on the one being cheaper (and the possibility to buy earlier), and the other being more expensive (and generating more money), though if this problem is approached mathematical, I think the only conclusion can be that the SSS is the best option to begin with.

I agree with the order of wonders after the SM and SSS, though this very much depends on the goals of a nation. (for a bank nation, the DRA may be more important, or it may be important to generate more money, instead of buying more infrastructure)

Edited February 3, 2008 by US of Europe

[myruler]

SM is the best first wonder because of the price.

[US of Europe]

SM is the best first wonder because of the price.

I just wrote quite a bit about this, and the Break-Even-Point of the SSS and SM are similar, while the SSS gives you more money. Conclusion?

Though if people want to have a wonder as fast as possible, sure, SM is a good alternative. If people want to have the best wonder, the biggest bang-for-a-buck, I wouldn't go for the SM.

Edited February 3, 2008 by US of Europe

[myruler]

I just wrote quite a bit about this, and the Break-Even-Point of the SSS and SM are similar, while the SSS gives you more money. Conclusion?

I have done the math for my nation and others and the SM has turned out better in all the cases I have examined. I don't know what you are examining, but either you have the nation massively different then the regular FF, Beer and Cons. in trades.

[US of Europe]

well, if you can give your population income, tax rate, and total population, I'm willing to do the maths again for your situation, as it might be the first time I see a scenario where the SM is the better wonder. I've done the maths as well, with various different methods.

(just for reference: my nation

$390.67 population income, tax rate 30%, 87,711 citizens. )

May I ask how you came to the conclusion the SM is better? How was the price difference, and income difference compensated?

Edited February 3, 2008 by US of Europe

[myruler]

It's been a while. I have like 6 wonders already, so it wouldn't be accurate. I put in the different formulas, whether 30% of the current levels or adding $10*multiplier(about 2.0759286) was better. SM was worse by about 100k a day, but that didn't pay for the waiting time.

[TheBFG]

(...)

Though I've seen many debates about this, all of these turned out on the one being cheaper (and the possibility to buy earlier), and the other being more expensive (and generating more money), though if this problem is approached mathematical, I think the only conclusion can be that the SSS is the best option to begin with.

Interesting to read some new, well researched thoughts on this - thanks!

However, I do still feel I have to disagree with some results.

The first argument is purely income related:

SSS increases your income by 7.14%, SM increases your gross per-citizen income by $20.76 (including income modifying Improvements).

The break even point between these is at $290. If your citizens earn less than this than the SM simply gives you a higher income increase (and because it is also cheaper it is then a automatic first choice).

If your gross per citizen income is higher, then indeed the SSS will increase your income more and further discussion is needed to identify the best choice.

To set some parameters on the discussion, I think we agree at least that the SSS and SM have to be nr 1 and 2 Wonders.

Therefore really what we should look at is only the difference in cost/income for the first 30+ days. After that you will have both, so the fact that the SSS continues to increase in "value" throughout its life (as the rest of your income increases) is not really relevant (when you buy it later, and your income is already higher, it will immediately return more money)

This means that the difference in when you can buy either is very important. If your income is higher that $290 and you have the money ready, then the SSS would indeed be the way to do. But if it indeed takes you 8 days more to get a SSS than it does to get a SSS then not only in these 8 days are you loosing income, but 30 days later you again loose 8 days of having both.

It would look like:

day 1-8 SM vs 0:

day 9-30 SM vs SSS:

day 31-38 SM+SSS vs SSS

day 39+ SM+SSS vs SM+SSS: after day 39 everything is the same since you'll have both.

Even if we just look at the first 30 days you're already going to struggle to make up for the loss of the 8 days of extra income if you get the SSS.

Rather than getting better after the 30 days it gets even worse, since the SM+SSS combination vs the SSS on its own makes a even larger impact. After day 39 you'll have both wonders so there is no point in comparing any differences after this.

(although between days 60 and 68 there will again be a difference as you could have another Wonder helping you out here, again meaning the "SM first" option is getting better and better all the time).

If we look closer at this, and just look at the first 30 days (ignoring that it gets even worse for the "SSS first" choice later on), then we can say that if it really takes 8 days longer to get the SSS then you have 22 days to make up for the loss of extra in those 8 days.

So the SSS income needs to be 36.4% more than the SM for this to break even (when that is the case the 22 days of SSS bring in as much as the 30 days of SM). We know that at $290 gross income the SM and SSS break even, so the break even point for the "36% more" lies at $395.5. This needs to be your gross income for the SSS to be a better first choice in this scenario. To show this:

SSS: income increase 395.5 * .02 = $7.91, over 22 days = $174 (more income per citizen)

SM: income increase $5.81, over 30 days = $174

We can turn this around as well, and calculate what the maximum extra time is that we can save for the SSS for that to be more profitable:

Say your income is X, then (X-290)/290 is the percentage extra income you'd get from a SSS instead of a SM.

If Y is the amount of days you spent saving for the SSS longer than the SM, that means we need the SSS to deliver a percentage of (30/(30-Y))-1 more income to make up for this loss.

So to find the break even point we can use (I'll spare the in-between math):

Y = 30-(30 / (1+ ((X-290)/290) ) )

This gives you the amount of days (Y) you can spend saving extra for the SSS instead of getting a SM, for a given gross per-citizen income of X.

So, for example, if your income is $350 then the break even point for this would be at 5.1 days, so if you can get the SSS in under 5 days of extra saving, then this would be profitable in the first 30 days.

My guess is that even this will be a negative outcome for most people, so the SM should bought first. On top of that, a further problem comes after 30 days, since in day 31-38 again the "SM first, then SSS on day 31" scenario delivers a higher performance than the "SSS first option", so in reality we should really just about half the outcome of this equation, making it harder and harder to see how anybody should be buying the SSS first (unless you have the money ready, or can get the money in a couple of days).

[US of Europe]

what were your data back then, (just an estimate will do) and how long did you have to wait for it, before you could buy the SSS?

@the BFG

I will go through your post later, but at first sight you make some valid points. Again, calculating every possibility for every choice a nation makes is a good advice. My income was certainly higher than $290 dollars before I began buying them, though I don't exactly know what you mean with the SSS choice becomes worse after 39 days, but then again, I still have to look closer.

Edited February 3, 2008 by US of Europe

[Myalam]

When discussing the SM/SSS as your first choice it is important note the most important factor is time. For the most part a SSS is better but the real limiting factor isn't the money, it is how long it takes to get it. If you need to wait to save the money for the SSS when you can get an SM then just get an SM.

[JoshuaR]

Indeed, I got a SSS because I had already gotten screwed up trades for a month and had a ton of money saved up no matter. Otherwise I would have had to do more math and figure out which would be better.

[King Irwin]

Hmm...Interesting analysis, BFG. I ran the numbers for myself when I was ready for my first wonder, and the SSS was MUCH better than the SM, so I've been asuming it must be the case for everyone, and encouraging everyone in this direction. I think it would be a rare case when someone who is properly managing their nation is ready for a wonder when their citizens are only making $290/day.

However, I had forgotten the issue of the cost of the wonders, and the time wasted saving up. This is actually quite important, since you can only buy one every 30 days. I think you raise a valid point that the SM may be better for those that do not have the money saved up (in my case, the purchase money happened to not be much of a factor). I guess I'll have to soften my stance on this issue.

US of Europe, one problem I see with your analysis is that you seem to base it off of the Break Even Point...but really this is irrelevent. Assuming you will buy the other one in 30 days, all that really matters is which will be more profitable for those 30 days. I think this will almost always be the SSS (unless your citizens make less than $290/day), but the great equalizer is how much cash you have on hand, as BFG mentioned. If you have to delay the purchase, it has a snowball effect every 30 days as each wonder has to be delayed.

My conclusion: if you have the money on hand, or can get it easily, I still believe the SSS to be much better to get first for almost everyone. However, if you would have to substantially delay the purchase to save up, the Stock Market probably is better.

Edited February 5, 2008 by King Irwin

[swazz]

hm okay

what is better Police HQs or clinics?

specifically which improvements are my best options right now for my nation

[Seerow]

A condensed version of the reason why SM is better than SSS:

Stock Market costs 10,000,000 less than SSS. To make Social Security System better, it must earn that 10million MORE than Stock Market, within 30 days.

That's right, for SSS to be better, it has to give the full bonus of SM, then 10million more on top of that. For reference, that's 333,333.33 per day roughly.

The stock market already gives you a bonus of 5.99 per citizen. So this is going to depend on your citizen count and your income.

If you have 80,000 citizens (roughly 7500 infra), you need to make an additional 4.16 per person profit from SSS to beat out Stock Market. So at 80,000 citizens, your total income boost from SSS needs to be $10.15.

I may have done the math wrong here, but using that information, I'm getting the cutoff point being 507.70 per citizen. And that's with 80,000 citizens. The lower your population is, the higher that cutoff point gets, it goes on a sliding scale.

In otherwords, unless you're buying your first wonder at 10k infra (and that makes you an idiot) SM is going to be the most efficient for you.

ps to the OP, Police HQ > Barracks.

[Kozmo101]

QUESTION!

About the wonders that raise your pop 3%, 5% how is that calculated. How much goes to citizens, soliders etc...

[Myalam]

It's the same as population improvements/resources; It multiplies the current modifier if it is not a same.

Example: Say you have Fish (+8%), two Clinics (2%+2%= +4%), a Hospital (+6%) and a National Research Lab (+5%).

1.08x1.04x1.06x1.05= 1.25 population modifier.

Afaik the population boosts aren't as great as the +5 happiness/+$10 wonders on average (except for the DRA, that provides another vital aid slot).

[King Irwin]

First, I would buy the last clinic before the Police HQ. W/ 30000 citizens, it will roughly give you a population boost of about 500 citizens...in other words, you're halfway to your next improvement already.

@Seerow: Here's the flaw in your logic...you don't take into account the purchase 30 days later. i.e., if you buy the SM now, you will have to buy the more expensive SSS then. So there's no reason you have to "earn that 10million MORE than Stock Market, within 30 days"

[Firebolt]

Sounds like we could benefit from a link to a great Nation Building Guide.

SM and SSS are roughly even in terms of being great wonders. However, the lower cost of SM allows you to purchase it quicker and start your 30-day clock until you can purchase your next wonder and thus it's the better first choice.

I don't think anyone is questioning the fact that after a certain threshold SSS makes you more money than the SM.