TehChron

Oh? What the hell did spying have to do with anything, by the way? And all my posts said no such thing about LUE having some kind of "Iron Grip" . Focusing on something that is clearly off-topic is an indication of your own failure. And that's all the "evidence" you cite in the last page. Tell me...What of any of that is historical evidence of anything save that you don't know what the hell you're talking about?

Yet you have not pointed out history. At all. Feel free to quote yourself, I wait with baited breath for the examples. And as I said already, if I see something I disagree with that has any merit, I will address it in a matter befitting what it deserves. I do not see how I have said anything unfair or can be considered "flaming" if it is correct. Alrighty then, here is how you are off-topic: What does your previous post have to do with the likelihood of another, unknown force arising in Pacifica's absence prior to the LUE invasion to bring about some form of standards of acceptable conduct? Because that was what you were claiming. If you actually believe something so utterly baseless, then I would be frankly shocked, because you never actually described it as something you held to be true. And I assumed, based off your posting, that you were just being incendiary and trying to catch everyone's attention with such unrealistic hypothesizing. And I dont recall ever "arguing" with you, you're certainly arguing with me...and losing...and I find that entertaining. But I am telling you what happened, and what you are doing. I am not disproving your talking points, I am describing them for what they are, and then dismissing them utterly as pointless and irrelevant.

So then why are you arguing with me again? Didnt you have a so-called "opinion" back there somewhere? I see you...flaming me and making claims? You don't cite any reason for them, and then resort to going offtopic in some ill-advised bid to one-up me. If you have presented a personal view, attitude, or appraisal of any situation, feel free to tell me what it is. Because I have yet to see it. Insofar as the first definition goes...Well, frankly. I believe that since you conceded I was pointing out stuff everyone already knows to be correct, you have acknowledged lacking even a belief or judgment of any kind that contradicts my testimony of CN history. Feel free to try again, though. I find im rather enjoying this.

The Moldavi Doctrine was a codification of what the NPO's policy was anyway. They didn't need to announce it for everyone to see, but by and large, I really don't see why everyone is acting like the Moldavi Doctrine was some kind of yardstick to measure how ebil the NPO was at the time. The NPO would have done the same thing whether or not it was publicly announced. It's kind of funny seeing you folks trying to say the Moldavi Doctrine was some kind of policy shift, heh. Nope, was that ModusOperandi guy I was referring to. You and I have business to tend to in another thread.

Please do. But then again, at least Im remembering what this lecture was about to begin with. And it wasn't about whether or not the NPO lost the Great Patriotic War. And what do you mean by "I wouldn't keep contradicting yourself". Are you losing your sense of identity in addition to your sense of logic? If so, I apologize. I also apologize for when, in the near future, I point out how your thoughts dont even meet the criteria required to qualify as an "opinion.

It wasn't controversial until recently, I promise you that. Moreover, it is the Moldavi which enables the Revenge. Not the other way around. If you abolish the Moldavi Doctrine, then there really is no pretext for the Revenge...So what can you do? The NPO is a tenet of the Moldavi doctrine...huh? Ill let you off with a warning this time. I need to go to the supermarket.

Alright. But what does that have to do with my point about the Moldavi/Revenge doctrines being irrelevant to the robustness of the Red Sphere compared to the overall presence of the NPO?

As Ive said in another thread, actually, equivalency does not exist. And regardless, your parroting is what brought about my comments on your character (how you portrayed yourself and your alliance as some sort of "freedom fighters" or something) and motivations, not your arguments. And it is not that the NPO stopped alliances from forming, it is that its superior organization, recruiting methods, and overall dominance stifled the growth of other alliances in the sphere. Through it's sheer dominance, it presented itself as the superior choice on red, and all others were more or less inferior. If one did not want to be part of the NPO yet not part of a scrub alliance, the nation would respond to the recruitment message sent by another alliance on another color team and go there. A plant growing in the shadow of a weed will not flourish if the weed is so vast as to take all the nutrients of the earth, sky, and sun for itself. The young plant will starve and die.

If you're going to assess the health of the Red Sphere, then you should realize that the most acute cause of the Red Team's comparatively stunted growth is not the Moldavi/Revenge doctrines. If you're going to make a shallow argument such as this as justification for your chest-thumping, I won't stop you. But to be frank, if there's any one cause for Red's, as you put it "Lack of benefit", it would be the NPO's very presence there to begin with. Not the policies of the Order, but it's existence which drowned out all other alliances that could have formed there. And only the most dedicated were able to "prosper", as it were. Your blame is misplaced. Cute and blatantly opportunistic, but misplaced.

Actually, if anything, the fact that the NPO was simply a better alternative and completely swamped all other newbie nations with better quality recruitment messages is a better cause of weaker Red alliances in general than some kind of tyrannical grip on the team color. I mean, I see your point...It's just not valid.

MO...Shut up. The NPO never used the Revenge or Moldavi doctrines to prevent people from forming alliances. If anything, they used it as an excuse to encourage individual alliances that cropped up in that sphere as useful lists for trading partners. Moldavi doctrine was a pretext for opening up those kinds of relations, nothing more when it came to that. You're being an opportunist, which is fine, but please, dont be delusional.

Oh, wait, you meant the NPO... No, Im not fat. Anyway, congrats, Sparta!

I was. I did not lead Pacifica, but I helped the war machine in every war post PWI. I was always a foot soldier for Pacifica. But let me tell ya something...When an argument is devoid of logical reasoning, thought, or even substance "stupid" is an apt adjective to describe it. I am hardly "insulting" you by calling your arguments for what they are, if you came up with better ones, I would address them on their merits. Presently, your points have none, and therefore will be treated as such. Equivalency does not exist. It is a false assumption made by those who feel bad for individuals who speak out of their asses regarding issues they know nothing about. In historical context there are only two defintions that matter: What did happen, and what did not happen. And ironically, that equates into....What is correct, and what is not. You fall into the latter category. All of your attempts to rationalize your statements as being equal in substance and value to my own are utterly and completely futile. Because you don't know what you're talking about. The NPO went after LUE after securing the promises of GATO, ODN, and Legion at the time to either stay out or help them take down LUE. Considering that at the time, those three alliances were headed by individuals and groups which were only interested in taking down the Orders Hyperpower hegemony during that period, it really isnt too much of a stretch that they would stab the NPO in the back the moment it appeared they had a viable shot at winning. Legion only stepped in at the fulcrum point when they felt they had a good enough excuse to do so. Securing promises only to be lied to? Sorry, but blatant betrayals like that can't be prepared for, period. Considering all this. And considering how your point is that another NPO-like entity would have emerged prior to LUEs arrival had we never formed...Surely, by now, you realize the depth of your ignorance in claiming that a perfect storm like what occured with Pacifica's creation would have taken place regardless of our existence?

Damn right, Comrade Musso.

What is that first sentence? Its just rambling and makes no sense. Where was barbaric without the NPO? What boards? Who developed civility? And the phrase is "two and two"...Wait, or are you implying Im blind and therefore cant do math? Thats an offensive and stupid comparison to make. Are you calling blind people mentally handicapped now? How incredibly crude. Insofar as the founding Pacificans go? I was not part of that group, at most I was an errand boy, but let me tell you something. The arrogant one here is you. They would have won Great War I save for the Legion's uncalled for backstabbing. The fact of the matter is, the bandwagoning of the CoaLUEtion was the result of a lot of backstabbing and jealousy among the CoaLUEtion alliances. Not the result of failures on their part. If you're going to accuse a group that actually took on the entirety of the rest of the game and came out stronger for it of incompetence...You clearly have lost all grip on logic. But hey, I wasnt accusing you of using it to begin with.

Issue 1: They WERE unreadable and barbaric. Once again, you're speaking from a position of inexperience. As for the rest of your post....You really are a fool. The NPO under Ivan Moldavi was perhaps the single greatest collection of political minds any online game has ever seen. It was not "one person", it was all of them. ALL OF THEM. I'll repeat myself again, here; Im not making an argument, I am pointing out what actually happened, to you, who was not there to experience it. You can dismiss what im saying as a mere "argument", but the sheer ignorance you possess of what actually occurred, blinds you to what happened. You don't get it. It was the sheer exceptionality of the New Pacific Order that allowed it to accomplish what it did. The fact that you blindly assume that they were a replicatable group does nothing more than underscore your sheer ignorance of CN history, and how that should exclude you from ever trying to act like an authority on it.

Of course not. Because so many large groups had formed with the sole purpose of opposing Pacifica in that world, and since it would be impossible for any one group to enforce standards of behavior due to the circumstances there, the NPO did not. If you knew anything about that "world", you'd know full well that its only saving grace was the fact that it did not allow pictures to be posted in its forums. Your last sentence in your first point doesnt make any sense. And no, as I said, the communities that formed are the communities that would have formed as they would have formed. The lack of a Pacifica would not have magically lead to another group of people suddenly deciding they wanted to join CN. Perhaps you are just underestimating how incredibly exceptional the NPO of that era truly was? And what was neccessary for the deeds that occurred to take place? If so, that can't be helped. As I said before, it's pointless to try and educate you on something you can't wrap your head around. Much like the fact that you have presented no "historical evidence" to validate your claims and speculation. I really dont see what you're getting at with the rest of that post.

Hardly anyone here is doubting the man is an opportunist. But the image he conveys is confirming suspicouns en masse of how you folks operate. Any message man worth his salt would have abandoned attacking his character from the beginning and focused on the real threat his message represents.

/shrug Come now, Cortath. Surely at this point you realize you're going to need to use a different method of message/damage control than what you've been using? With Vox folk who know the way Pacifica operates so well contradicting you constantly, you gotta realize that with the loss of Pacifican credibility here, you're going to need to use a different tact to convince anyone, frankly.

Issue 1. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. In that "world" the NPO was a superpower much like it has been here. Due to the nature of that other "world" domination like what had been achieved here was impossible due to game mechanics. Issue 2. What "points"? No, really. I don't see any. Issue 3. Im not making arguments. That's what you seem to not be getting. I am making factual statements. I apologize if I was not clear before on that subject. Issue 4. You have given no "historical evidence" to support your "Knight in Shining Armor" speculation. If you did, Id frankly be shocked to have missed it. I fail to see how your "methods" are the same as mine considering that, once again, what Ive been saying are almost entirely factual statements. What it implies about me is that I know what Im talking about, whereas you? You are simply trying to defend your worldview and fantasies from that harsh mistress, reality.

Debunking your points is relevant to your post. Im not saying you are "stupid" for trying to disprove something you disagree with, I am simply saying that the manner in which you decided to do it was one of the least intellectual options available to you. I also proceeded to, as already pointed out, debunk your ideas. When you refused to back down, I became more and more blunt as you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the flaws in your reasoning as they were presented. Im hardly arguing. Im telling you how it was. This isn't a debate.

Talking in hypotheticals regarding history that actually occurred is a waste of time. "Some unknown individual may have arrived and changed everything. WE MAY NEVER KNOW!?!?" That's stupid. You're not even claiming anything, just making a baseless, unfounded statement that is devoid of any content. The only force NPO-enough in its disposition capable of doing anything had the game survived an unfiltered LUE gross assault would have been FAN, and that would not have occurred for at least six months after LUE had arrived, and even longer before they were strong enough to take on a position powerful enough to enforce anything. Let me tell you something...You know who advanced military strategy development in CN? Who introduced those things and made GWI itself a possibility? The NPO. Our R&D is what advanced gameplay. Our leaked game guides, our shared secrets with allies that would betray us, our emulators, all of that, was ultimately linked back to us. Even FAN as a hypothetical NPO-like entity would likely not have become so fearsome anywhere near as fast had it not been for Pacifica. Let alone have the diplomatic finesse required to challenge the undisputed masters of the Cyberverse. Let me remind you again, all those big alliances? They were peaceniks, and uninterested in warfare, save the ODN in which case it wanted to eliminate the NPO. So, there would not have been any actual military conflicts going on, and this is even considering that CN would still possess a forum at this point. Or working at all. You claim to not be contesting the issue of the forums. Thats nice, but what exactly are you contesting? What exactly is your belief founded upon? From what I can tell, it's nothing. Once more, hypothesizing about generalized fantasies is stupid. And trying to defend that waste of time is even more stupid. And then attempting to present such ideas as legitimate historical analyses is the most stupid of all.

My first reply was pointing out that that would never have happened. Period. The other prominent alliances at the time would not have had the power or drive to do so like we did. LUE, had it not been forced to restrain itself due to the threat of a Pacifican smackdown, would not have been able to restrain its initial hotheads, leading to mass gross, and a deletion due to invisionfree ToS violations. That would have wrecked the game. Because just because the Invisionfree forums would have been deleted, doesnt mean that the gross posters would have stopped. They would have kept coming back, until it would have just been too much. That was an actual threat back then. You miss my point completely, despite my constant reiterations of it. I frankly don't understand how that's intellectually possible.

It was more of an in-joke than one meant to be publicly understood, anyway. And part of that is toeing the party line.

Once again, you're missing what Im saying. The NPO Set the standard of what was "acceptable behavior". At least publically. Had the NPO never came into being, those standards would not have come into being, and LUE would have been allowed free reign with its more unsavory memberships violating Invisionfree ToS, and possibly destroying the game. That's how serious it was back then even when LUE *was* afraid to piss us off. If all you focus on is spying and military force, you're so blind to the larger picture that it's not even worth my time to try and educate you.