Alonois

[quote name='The AUT' date='16 April 2010 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1271443249' post='2262985'] So I guess it's now a person's opinion is indicative of the entire situation. Fyi Keshav used to be in Umbrella and just left MK, he's not exactly biased. It's based on different perspectives, there's nothing to "get" other than a matter of interpretation from both sides. [/quote] So to sum up, what you're saying is GOONS ? He's a rogue nation, he's a nuisance. Theoretically a threat even. He's not an alliance. He's a single, very narcissistic nation who overestimates his capabilities and position. This makes him unreasonable and, being unreasonable, dangerous. Especially with uranium, lead, and any resource that enhances is capability to wage war.

[quote name='Geoffron X' date='16 April 2010 - 03:17 AM' timestamp='1271405852' post='2262621'] Ok, I think I understand this now? Methrage attacks Gram. GOONS doesn't care. However, he also aids a nation at war with GOONS. GOONS attacks and Umbrella sanctions at the request of their ally. Somehow by defending himself with nukes Methrage becomes a nuclear rogue? I mean, maybe Meth deserves to be attacked, but he doesn't really fit the definition of rogue (against GOONS, at least). This is confusing. [/quote] I'd say attacking two alliances indicates a trend, especially with his arrogance.

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='16 April 2010 - 03:07 AM' timestamp='1271405230' post='2262610'] http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=84290&pid=2262586&st=0&#entry2262586 Nice. [/quote] Unrelated, but hilarious.

[quote name='Methrage' date='16 April 2010 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1271403610' post='2262582'] Does the color I'm on matter? If I was blue fighting you guys would it make any difference from black? You used the sanction to try hurting me, but what color I was on didn't have a negative effect on the black team, it had a positive effect for some. [/quote] It had a negative effect for a greater amount, though. You're right that color itself does not matter. Which is why this sanction would just have likely been put in place regardless of sphere. However, you were black. The hypotheticals do not matter here.

[quote name='Methrage' date='16 April 2010 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1271403219' post='2262573'] I was a member of the black team until Xavii caused me to leave by sanctioning me, making clear as long as he is senator I'm unwelcome there and trading with black nations. [/quote] But you were a nuisance to the rest of the black sphere, and demonstrably so to at least two alliances (GOONS and Umbrella). Their duty is to the black sphere members as a whole. If a sacrifice is to be made, then it is the sacrifice of the one over the sacrifice of the many. [quote name='JimKongIl' date='16 April 2010 - 02:34 AM' timestamp='1271403235' post='2262574'] No need when I can return the attacks of all nations I am fighting whether they are 1 or 6. [/quote] Irrelevant. I asked you if this basic tactic was honorable. Have you rallied against teaming up against some one? Do you decry the dishonor of the most basic of tactics, the use of superior force?

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='16 April 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1271402819' post='2262565'] I beg to differ. [/quote] Then conjure up two nations of equivalent strength. [quote name='Methrage' date='16 April 2010 - 02:29 AM' timestamp='1271402979' post='2262570'] I don't consider myself rogue, but I do have a lot of people who support me here. I guess we'll see if his misuse of the senate seat has an effect on him keeping it. [/quote] Who are your supporters? I count two, one of which only supports you out of a disdain for sanctions as a whole it seems. Far more importantly, the duty of black sphere senators is first to the members of the black sphere.

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='16 April 2010 - 02:22 AM' timestamp='1271402510' post='2262556'] That is incorrect. If 3 people declare on me I certainly have the opportunity to retaliate with GA, CM, Air, Nukes, Spies and Navy. No, honor is a self imposed code of ethical conduct and if you don't get it, it can't really be explained to you. [/quote] But you cannot create three members and attack with equivalent force or with equal resources. Would you say it is honorable for three men to kick one man? Is this your honor? Honorable action, in war, is the cry of those who have been outmaneuvered and have lost. Honor's only viable place is in personal interaction. In war, the goal is victory. Honor is only a comfort. [quote name='Methrage' date='16 April 2010 - 02:24 AM' timestamp='1271402626' post='2262558'] My point was though that rogue can mean anything for you, thus you might request Umbrella to sanction anyone and they'll do it without question. Does rogue mean 1 person not allied to anyone who is declared upon or maybe if I have 2 members when declared on its not rogue? How about 3 members, is that rogue? Is there a set criteria for rogue or do you make it up as you go along? [/quote] We do not define rogue. Our charter defines what we perceive as legitimate sovereign entities that, to mess with, would create greater problems for all members. Umbrellas sanctioning of you is not simply "because we asked". Your lack of capacity to recognize the strength of alliances, as well as your self absorbed nature makes you a public nuisance if not a legitimate threat (And judging by the charts, I'm guessing you're not). A sanction is a corrective measure, both against you and future rogues who would think themselves so high and mighty as to interfere with alliances.

[quote name='Methrage' date='16 April 2010 - 02:19 AM' timestamp='1271402334' post='2262551'] Allied to who? I'm pretty sure I was sanctioned while I had two members, so that wasn't unaligned. Your charter says under 15 isn't an alliance, unless you change your mind, then you can consider anything you want either an alliance or rogue entity. [/quote] Our charter is our charter, it is not the charter of all of the black sphere. And our clause is used to provide a yardstick to members to measure to what extent their actions will have consequences for the rest of the alliance. The fifteen alliance is, again, as was earlier described, a yardstick for power. An alliance is not just a collection of friends but an entity which can defend itself. Which has the capacity if not the ability to create equivalent or greater problems for any nation attacking them. When alliance is being used, it is a term denoting a degree of power. Not just connections.

[quote name='Methrage' date='16 April 2010 - 02:13 AM' timestamp='1271402000' post='2262545'] Keep telling yourself that, rogue can mean anything. Your own charter could place any numbered alliance under the definition of rogue with your closet clause. [/quote] The limited implementation of sanctions by the black sphere to overly aggressive non-allied nations whom are incapable of respecting alliance sovereignty implies that no, rogue can not "mean anything". It is not a nebulous term. Also, our clause is not used to define rogues but used to define what is and isn't a legitimate war and what is and isn't a legitimate alliance in our eyes.

[quote name='Methrage' date='16 April 2010 - 02:09 AM' timestamp='1271401771' post='2262542'] It can have a far more damaging effect than the actual sanctions done, the loss in confidence that people have that they won't be sanctioned can cause much more damage. Edit: Maybe I'll see if my circle can be convinced to move off black so we can fix it, although I also encourage all alliances and individuals not direct allies of GOONS to move to a different color. [/quote] No one has lost confidence in the black sphere's capacity to trade. No one but rogues are afraid of sanction. [quote name='JimKongIl' date='16 April 2010 - 02:09 AM' timestamp='1271401726' post='2262541'] You weren't asking me per se but in my opinion sanctions are unjust because it is a weapon you can use against an enemy without engaging them on the battlefield. I believe all attacks should have the possibility of being reciprocated. It is about honor. Sanctions are like poisoning an enemies food instead of fighting him face to face. If you have a beef with an enemy then stand and face them. [/quote] Three people declaring war on one person cannot be reciprocated by that person. Does that make this unjust? No. This is the nature of war. War is not a game of honor, war is a game of power. Whoever has the capacity to wield their power properly wins. Honor is the refuge of the losing side. It has no actual bearing on the engaging of war. If you wish to impose your sense of honor, then levy power to do so. Have the courage of your convictions.

[quote name='Methrage' date='16 April 2010 - 02:02 AM' timestamp='1271401333' post='2262535'] Not only did Xavii screw my trades, but members of OG and LoSS, although if your going to use your sanction as a weapon in war people won't feel secure with you holding it except your allies. I think its cheap shot more than anything and it affects more than just the one person, so it tends to be unpopular to do. Anyways mainly I considered both Xavii and Umbrella friends in the past, so I'm mostly surprised he would blindly do as GOONS ask of him with it and am more disturbed he would do that than the actual losing my trades part. The use of sanctions does make a color sphere unreliable as trades randomly get destroyed, seeing how these senators are on black use sanctions without question, maybe its for the best I move onto a different color anyways even if I had planned to keep that team color forever. [/quote] Let's break this down. Does a sanction affect more than one person? Yes. To some extent, yes. Thus, the sanctioned nation should negatively affect more than five nations. Does a rogue do that? Yes. A rogue threatens anyone within his range. This is easily more than five nations (Unless, I don't know, you're pink). It's a basic cost/reward thing. What is the cost of a sanction? Potentially five troubled nations. What is the reward? Weakening, perhaps crippling a nation that negatively affects many nations. Does the use of sanctions make a color sphere unreliable? No. That would require an excess number of sanctions, upwards of close to 25% of the members of that sphere. That is not the case. That is a doomsday scenario present in no sphere. Since that situation does not exist, it is not a viable point of contention. And to further sum this up for you, because it's aware you care for you, you directly involved yourself in a war by trying to defend members of an alliance. Your disregard for legitimate warfare, and far more importantly your inflated sense of self worth that left you convinced you could handle an alliance of the size and nature of GOONS (GOONS #1, baby), means you aren't just a bothersome gnat for GOONS, you're a nuisance for anyone else. This further proves you have no respect for Black sphere alliances. Your arrogance, disregard for the generally accepted rules of engagement, and insulting demeanor indicates some one who will go to war with anyone to satisfy himself. If you will not respect the sovereignty of the black sphere alliances, then these alliances are well within their right to levy all the power at their disposal to force you to either respect that sovereignty or break. Afterall, this is what you yourself tried to do not long ago. Use your power, or rather perceived power, to force GOONS to back down from a war with CSA.

[quote name='Methrage' date='16 April 2010 - 01:53 AM' timestamp='1271400765' post='2262517'] Is it ever necessary? I don't think so. [/quote] When one seeks to nip the bud of a plant or cut the roots, one does not use tweezers. One uses scissors. Similarly, when you want to deal with a problem (Say, a nation with nukes and no ties to anyone else) you use all your tools. You don't pull punches. You sanction, you declare war, you deal with the problem before it costs you even more.

[quote name='nippy' date='16 April 2010 - 01:05 AM' timestamp='1271397934' post='2262443'] What in the world are you talking about? [/quote] GOONS aren't really people, so when people attack us and break the infrastructure of our weakest nations, or launch nukes or missiles at us without provocation (Or, I suppose, being GOONS is always a justifiable CB), any damage is unimportant because we're not really people. Now when we retaliate and try to end the problem before it grows even larger, we're just being evil, hateful, and petty.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='16 April 2010 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1271397375' post='2262425'] [color="#0000FF"]Who are you to decide what an alliance is? I find that to be an even worse precedent. Unfortunately it has already been set. Doesn't mean I plan on recognizing it.[/color] [/quote] One man, by the nature of the phrase alliance, is not an alliance. That is just one nation with a subtitle. Far more importantly, an alliance is determined (By pretty much any alliance) by its capacity to levy power in its name and safeguard its existence, through either defensive treaties or numbers. Fifteen nations makes for a good estimate of strength to say "This is an alliance, or at least a collection of nation of non-negligible strength, and to get involved with them will necessitate greater attention and resource than an unprotected and weaker collective". Perfection is impossible, there are probably fifteen man alliances that are terrible, four man alliances that, in being close together in strength, are quite difficult to crack. However, in law only so much room can be made for interpretation (as has been allowed in the GOONS charter), and far more important is a basic, non-obtuse yardstick for at what point GOONS begins to respect the sovereignty of any collection. Power is not a right given to all, power is something created and held by those who can hold it.

[quote name='ktarthan' date='13 April 2010 - 03:44 AM' timestamp='1271148227' post='2258531'] He... he... still never answered my questions. [/quote] I'll answer his questions for you. BAWWW LOOK AT ME I'M IMPORTANT AND MATTER! There's nothing else to his posts. He's convinced he is king of war and he's important enough to fill up an 'alliance'.

I feel morally outraged over the declaration of war against some one over the sending of money to a clearly aggressive nation whom continually assaults third world GOON nations. I mean, GOONS really aren't people so who cares. Besides, how could they have known what he would do with the money they sent? He's be the ruler of, what, an under thousand nation strength nation for at least half a year? And perpetually at war with weaker GOONS nations? Who are we to predict the future? How can we say what he'd do with that money? Maybe he'll use the money to feed his poor citizens. GOONS are classist against the poor. Also they smell bad.

[quote name='Anarcho Jesse' date='19 February 2010 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1266597095' post='2192111'] This is a celebration of extortion for following through on a treaty obligation, you deluded child. [/quote] It is an internet spreadsheets game. Lighten up. Also, they gave us some boo boos. We need lots of band aids. We just wanted to punch NATO. (I bet when you play Civ 4 you never pick theocracy because you disagree with a theocratic state on a philosophical level)

[quote name='Anarcho Jesse' date='18 February 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1266551185' post='2191266'] The LSF is not a large alliance. Yet, for the seeming insignificance that we're being told we have, we still haven't been pushed out of the war. Why do you think this is? [/quote] We've been more interested in UCN than you.

Did they just suggest they're nazis?

Aww yeah baby. Me, you, and a bottle of 7/11's finest soft drink. All night.

OH BLAH BLAH BLAH GOONS MASTER COMEDIAN RACE BLAH BLAH BLAH I QUOTED AL CAPONE I'M DEEP (He's a philosopher, right?) BLAH BLAH BLAH MOONS

What's that?! More targets! That's okay! I've got more than one arm! There's enough of me for everyone! To hug. Get over here, you kooks, group hug!

[quote name='Tequila Mockingbird' date='31 January 2010 - 12:14 AM' timestamp='1264918494' post='2146915'] The ultimate battle has begun. [/quote] Yea, and though my hands tremble at the thought of taking another man's life, another thinking being's, I know that my war is just and my soul is pure. The gods have sided with me this day, that I might dispense Their justice.

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='30 January 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1264915818' post='2146756'] You sure you can handle such a large alliance? [/quote] May the gods protect us 'gainst their massive flesh, and may they hold our hands in these matters that our aim be true and our guns accurate. For surely, in such battles with enemies whose names dwell only in Swarm or Legion, we will need the strength of the capricious gods if we are to survive.

Wait, you're suggesting that because three alliances declared war on you, it took 3-4 to take you down? That's like saying because they sent four dogs, it took four dogs to kill me. No, it just means they sent four war dogs to rip your throat out. One would have sufficed, but overkill is fun.