shilo

Usually, when you resurface an alliance that is at war with 3/4 of the cyberverse, you go to those alliances and ask for peace, you don't kindly summon them to your embassy to make peace with you.

Well, ODN has not signed peace with Goons, so we should still be at war with them. I guess it is time we enforce this once again.

I agree with my friend and alliance mate Cata. In both points

all the best to our friends and allies RnR all the best to our OUT partners TORN

Well, isn't that something. It took you leaving, founding your own alliance and a GW3 dwarfing war to get to this point, but we got there We do things, sometimes the wrong things, sometimes the right things. Somehow we've managed to keep on doing until now, and once in a while we might be in for a good surprise.

That was a realpolitical statement though. Some alliances, and some of their members, will never forget and forgive. Not for years.

I guess he just means that while the alliance may not get peace, the individual members very well may get it. Of course, some might mix this up and just never give the entire alliance any peace... and the members

Someone who once did stuff in MCXA?

Ok, VE were victims of ODN's belligerent acts, and because they felt threatened by ODN being so aggressive, they threatened INT, demanded that INT expell their leader to ZI him. Makes sense, gotta admit that.

And why is there no way comments that even you admit are not the nicest happened to be in the OP?Because VE wanted to be really thorough in explaining or...? I wasn't forced, however, I didn't even think about them until I was reminded by our back then SoS that I had said it and that FOK was truly (and rightly so) offended. I then on my own wrote an open letter, but of course the government of the day was involved, as it was a matter concerning foreign affairs. For me, I never quite thought about it until then, but in retroperspective I wish I hadn't said in the first place. But this topic is not about our short but not nice encounter in the past but about VE. If you wish anything else to know/hear, pm me.

This is not quite what happened, as this version looks like ultimately VE was the victim of a billingerent ODN. You know, even I have to admit, that's... well funny

What has NPO betraying or not betraying someone to do with your attempt to bully around INT? I wish VE truly would have had the balls to not back down on their ultimatum. ODN and IRON are allies, INT is a member of OUT as well as IRON. When a partner is threatened with war, I assume you wouldn't inform your allies about this? Those I meant. 1. Let's say that's not a nice way to depart, shall we 2. You mean during the UJW, 1 1/2 years ago, to which I personally apologized in all counts in an open letter to the entire alliance?

It's not semi related, with the whole incident being the cause of this thread in the first place. Why would I look at it that way. Your alliances and your allies VE threatening our ally- I wouldn't have minded defending my ally against you two bullies, it would have felt good. I was partially saddened that you didn't stick to your ultimatum. Well, I know more than you would like to, I guess that's the reason your alliance mate wants to forbid me from posting. I don't act like I were owed anything. VE attempted to spin them loosing 3 allies as something they controlled, and then even insulted them, while it was VE that caused the loss of those 3 allies by their behaviour in the INT situation. So the facts stand, no matter whether you like that or not.

I know you don't want to admit that what happened a week ago is connected to the VE cancellation of those two treaties, and IRON cancelling with VE, and TORN cancelling with you guys, but it is. I don't feel tough, I quite clearly pointed out that it was Craig, the leader of the alliance you and your allies threatened, who spared you from war (had you gone through with your ultimatum of demanding Craig being expelleded to be ZIed by you guys ). You threatened INT, they felt threatened by you guys threatening them. Then they got ODN involved, you then in turn felt threatened, accused INT of all kinds of things for sharing your threats with their ally ODN, then even went so far to demand Craig's ZI for that. And it was ultimately Craig swallowing his pride, doing the right and smart thing, keeping the moral highground, that spared you from the consequences of attacking INT to ZI Craig. Somewhere in there, all the alliances OV and VE are no longer treatied with get involved as well, cause they are treatied to both partners. They get to watch the impossible behaviour of VE. When the public apology of Craig is made, VE does nothing. Not for a week. Then IRON cancels with VE, and TORN with OV. The next day, IRON's cancellation is annouced along with the NPO and GGA treaties as well. But not just that, all three are insulted in the OP. And after all that, VE apologizes to INT. How honorable...

The second time you attempt to tell me when to speak? Are you a moderator?

You know, if I didn't know that this wasn't the truth, it might make sense. But as I do, I know that the cancellations are related to VE's aggressive and failed attempt of blackmailing a smaller alliance, VE then realizing a week later how stupid they were, but the allies of VE - through which VE only felt they were in the position to threaten and blackmail anyone in the first place - long since realized what an "ally" VE was, IRON reacted, and so you thought it were best to go on the offensive, post an apology so that you don't appear completely as dishonorable for the way you announced things, and then hoped for the quick PR victory. You simply are not informed about what really happened, your ally is not telling you the truth, if I were you I'd ask them again to tell you what really happened. And we stuck with them, and for that VE wanted to attack INT. Think about that, and then go back to repeating your old stereotypes again.

You don't tell me when to speak. Lame, also old. Your buddies in VE threatened an ally of ours because they asked for our help and got it. They were afraid that their lame attempt to blackmailing would fall back on them. I only pointed out how the apology never appeared in the thread where it should have, rather you could see many VE members, government as well as normal members, telling Craig how nice it was of him to apologize, not realizing that their asses were saved by him, and that they by attempting blackmail and threatening the alliance are the ones who should have apologized. To now bring up the apology combined with the cancellation is nothing but a lame PR stunt. Also, yes ES, you were

Sadly I do, but I am not government, no need to be able to know how you roll, it's that obvious

Yep, I had the pleasure to be able to watch all of this from the "insight perspective". From that perspective, I see an apology about a week too late, not even heartfelt, cause in the thread where it should have been posted, VE never looked like they even realized their doing as anything but dishonorable and cowardly (ie them threatening and blackmailing an alliance much smaller than their own with the imagined backing of the very alliances they now attempted to humiliate in this thread), and when they found out that their now fomer allies didn't quite agree with that childish and aggressive behaviour, and possibly were (or in the case of IRON already had) on their way to cancel the treaties, they thought "hey, how about we cancel those treaties asap before they do" [insert "I quit, you can't fire me analogy" here] throw in some nice sounding apology to appeal to the anti NPO/allies crowd, and hope no one notices it. Well, I did notice it. Indeed, classy entertainment for the masses VE, bravo *applauds*

o/ VE for making sure you announce all three cancelled treaties so fast ...well, forgetting to inform one or the other party happens if you gotta be so fast... ... and being respectful too... I am curious however, has anyone actually tried to look beyond what VE wants to spin this?

When someone carries OOC things into a game, it is absolutely fitting to react with ingame measures (as well as) OOC measures if they fit. (illegally obtaining access to a forum to spy is no crime, but it is breaking in under false pretense in a private forum. When then someone attempts to use OOC methodes like proxies etc, multiple nations to attempt such espionage, then chasing that person down with all means necessary is the right way to react.) You may add my signature as limited to my opposition of punishing ingame acts with EZI.

But when someone himself crosses the OOC/IC border, may it be by spying (and continuing to do so with new characters, with the only purpose of character recreation to camoflage espionage) or by hacking or other such crimes, EZE is the fitting punishment. So ultimately, it is up to everyone how to act: don't want others to cross the IC/OCC line, don't cross it yourself. However, no ingame action, no ingame politics etc, should ever lead to such a punishment.

Congrats to Moon, looks like a fine government Edit: /me strolls across posta0's lawn

Also death/optional/no honor/infra>friends/