Proko
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Posts posted by Proko
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Well, the first two were asked for in your embassy exactly a month ago (ie, prior to the war).
Edit: Edited out redundancy & changed "our" with "your".
It was my understanding Crymson requested an apology from Sponge, whom we were not in contact with at the time. We had no means of procuring such an apology/admittance.
And to clarify, by at the time, I mean Sponge literally disappeared for several weeks after he was deposed. He has only recently re-appeared.
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Full admittance of the Citadel incident, public apology, viceroy =D.
I believe the institution of Viceroy was deemed against the ToS. If that is all there must be for peace, please send me a query and I think we can work something out.
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That is well and good, but we chose not to go to war out of respect for our allies, aswell as the Mobis accords which precluded an attack on a treaty partner of our allies directly.
In short: we took the opinion of our allies into account, and the natural result of the current political landscape is that someone who does not have allies of ours also allied to them is in a position of weakness.
The determination to go to war with Polaris, logically, would stem from the last action committed that caused grief. This would be the unveiling of Sponge's logs regarding the Moldavi Coup, unless there is a more recent event in your mind. Therefore, the determination for The Order of the Paradox to go to war with the New Polar Order, logically, was made at the latest at the beginning of July, 2008, if not sooner.
Nearly two months later, Sponge is no longer in the alliance. A new Emperor sits on the throne, who has handled every problem that has confronted him diplomatically and reasonably. He has been friendly, charitable, and accommodating. If his demeanor was not enough to deter TOP's increasingly dated decision, what was? What could have changed?
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Well, at least nothing that you'd say out in public or within earshot of anyone. Sponge may be gone but the talking in back rooms, sharpening the knives to plunge into the backs of those that were willing to give you the chance kept right on rolling.
Lets break it down shall we?
NpO has declared war on alliances for such things as 'OOC Attacks, Slander, Recruiting from their ranks, ect ect.
NpO has committed acts of 'OOC Attacks, Slander, Recruiting from other alliances, Ect ect. But thats okay. Everyone should just forgive and Forget.
NpO has asked for the expulsion of members in other alliances for transgressions against them or they should fear the consequences.
NpO harbors enemies of other alliances but doesn't do jack or basically provide a half assed response of appeasment while slandering the other alliance
Yeah, class act. When an alliance plays by your rules against you, they must be scum but NpO is the salt of the earth. All nice and nifty with new figure heads stating that the issues were with the old leaders. How many alliances did NpO destroy when they attempted the same thing? Oh I can think of about a half a dozen.
One thing I look forward to for laughs is NpO's selective memory on matters. Someone said it elsewhere. Polars Propaganda machine is second to none.
I believe most of its members would believe the sky was purple if you told them it was and said it often enough which would then be followed by 20 pages of blind hail fests.
BTW: Tell Penchuk to come out of hippy mode. I want to see if he can back up his trolling and banter with action other than slander and videos.
Naturally, I will need you to provide relevant examples of OOC attacks, Slander (I'm not necessarily sure I can recall a CB for slander), and recruiting from other alliances before you throw such accusations around. We can discuss them after you give me something concrete.
If we are harboring anyone's enemy, please let us know and the situation will be dealt with promptly. Following the ascension of Grub to the throne, the Chickenzilla issue was dealt with in a swift and satisfactory manner. Any other concerns, please address them to myself or Hannah.
Again, I am having difficulty remembering any example where we specifically demanded one member leaving because they were on our ZI list, apart from when Sponge required FIST to expel Starcraftmazter.
You can talk your talk, but without anything specific, it is difficult to engage you. Like Ertyy (not only as in you're both former members), your perception of Polaris is closed-minded, I think. Regardless of circumstance, regardless of change, there is no context for which this war should not have happened, shy of disbanding. In which case, I ask you what you feel the conditions for peace should be. Or are Sponge's past crimes so reprehensible that Grub's regime deserves no rest?
EDIT:
KingPenchuk publicly apologized for his video and for his treatment of MCXA. What on earth could you want beyond that?
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I liked Grämlins. They were and are an awesome alliance. But sadly they would rather be allied to people who start chanting "death to Grämlins" in their public IRC channel.
While I may not have always agreed with them, I have always respected their independence and their opinions on sovereignty and responsibility.
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As i already pointed out, NpO made it very clear on which position we need to put them should we ever get to be involved in a global conflict. There were serveral incidents, every one of them a CB on its own in its time, that concluded alltogether Polaris would never leave us alone in peace. If they would have had the opportunity in the meantime, they would sure as hell have taken it. Bad for Polaris we had it first, now they need to taste their own medicine.
We would have welcomed friendship with Grämlins. We still welcome friendship with Grämlins. We have done nothing to you under our new government.
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Yeah, actually we were kinda angry they stole our show and started everything with weak CB. Made propoganda much easier for you.
In which case, you declare your alliances unwilling to examine the actions of the new Polar government? Was there even a consideration, that Grub and I may have been different from Sponge and Random, that affairs were being conducted differently? Was there even a consideration that we may not be renegades that you see us to be?
You have illuminated me inasmuch as the delay is concerned. But the reasons are still foggy in my mind. I can speak for Polaris in an official capacity when I say any friendly gesture by the Grämllins under the new government would have been welcomed enthusiastically.
If a transgression-less month and a half is still good enough for war, then what is good enough for peace. Sponge committed nearly every grievance you have against us, and we have gotten rid of him. Yet we are still suffering under your boot. We can't very well depose him again. So what is peace, if the perpetrators of the offenses are no longer here? Am I to step down and suffer for what sins Sponge has borne? What would it take for Grämlins to consider peace, if this is what they consider for war?
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Not really. I am mostly disappointed at the hypocrisy of the Polar of today. You claim to be martyrs and this war is unjust, yet Polaris herself is guilty of the same crimes you are so vocally against. Did FIST deserve what they got for a simple joke. Did NADC deserve what they got for "Breathing our air"? Did CIN deserve to die because Azra was tired of being harassed.
Yeah, I helped with most of those causes and I have the blood of the innocents on my hands as well. But don't pretend that Polaris is completely virtuous in her endeavors. The shoe is on the other foot now and it's time to settle disagreements on the battle field.
No one is defending FIST. The NADC War was justified in its own way, and you know this. It just so happens the attacks were not sanctioned by Charles, and instead by the Minister of Foreign Affairs (or something), Bismarck. CIN was as resolved to fight as we were, if you have read the original MSN logs, it is very clear Azra wanted to bring it to war.
We asked LoSS to assist us. They have been noncommittal and slippery. These are not traits we look for in our friends.
Additionally, CIS disbanded. There was no treaty to honor.
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No. You might not be aware of it, but you were still under Pacificas umbrella until recently. That is and was the only reason, you can believe me or not, but i didnt even know about the GGA-Hyperion war before it happened (note that im not Top3 gov though).
We also didnt share target lists as one of your comrades noted, since (heres the clue) we and GGA are attacking different alliances.
We were told as of approximately two weeks ago, Pacifica had exerted all of their influence and they would be unable to protect us. I heard this from Dilber, Moo, and Umbrae, individually.
Then I ask, was this war to happen even if we did not stand by GR-SOLID? Would the Grämlins have attacked Polaris on August 13th, 2008, regardless of the actions of the GGA?
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I don't care about what has happened since sponge was deposed. As I said earlier, I care that NpO only ever changed anything to save itself and not out of any change of heart.
It was pretty funny, actually. You all went from being chest-thumping trolls to respectful Everyman folk overnight. Now that your demise is sealed I see that people are already going back to being trolls.
I hope that is not a label for me. I have made every attempt to remain respectful and civil through this intercourse, and I appreciate the efforts made by my adversaries, particularly Hellangel, to do the same.
What prompts change in any situation? We do what is required of us, and we have made several outstanding diplomatic efforts towards friendship with alliances we have wronged. Diplomatically, we were set back greatly under Sponge's regime.
Evidently, you are unwilling to forgive us our transgression regardless of circumstance. I may be interpreting your post incorrectly, but I cannot appeal to an already closed mind. For two months the new government tried. We are being destroyed for the sins of our fathers.
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I'm not leadership so I can't speak for that. To our membership though I haven't seen much, so I guess we disagree on the meaning of monumental.
We have attempted to answer any questions and concerns the TOP membership may have had with us. When the screenshots from our temp boards were leaked, we especially spoke to and consoled the leaders of TOP, trying to assuage them however possible. Deep wounds heal slowly, and we understand TOP was not going to take us to wed immediately. But we extended the arm of friendship in both words and deeds.
Unfortunately, Crymson required an apology for comments Sponge made from nearly a year ago. It is not our place to apologize on his behalf, but we tried to meet all other needs Paradoxia had.
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LoSS is also allied to TPF and NPO. Ever hear of 'treaty conflict?' Not only is it the ONLY legitimate way to stay out of war, but I consider declaring neutrality in such a case to be the honorable route.
That, and what diskord said.
It only goes to show what Polaris values: Not friendship, but whether or not you're willing to be their loyal meat shield.
This is not the time for treaty conflict. We speak of our own destruction.
We see in this hour Carpe Diem, Nueva Vida, Siberian Tiger Alliance, and many others come to our defense, regardless of treaty conflicts and red tape. If you are not our friend in this hour, then you are not our friend.
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You've had well over a year to change your ways and only did it when it came down to saving your own $%&es. I have no doubt that as soon as NpO was back on top, everything would be the same as before you got knocked down politically. Except it would be even worse as Grub is just as much a troll as ES but is less fun about it.
We have changed. Again, I defy you to provide a specific example of hard-headed or obstinate behavior from Polar leadership since Sponge was deposed. We have been nothing if not compliant and diplomatic.
Sorry, but it only comes down to the alliance being responsible for their leadership. The time grub took over, it was already too late. Sponge was still in the alliance and it looked like an attempt to outmaneuvre us and still keep everything in place.And what do you mean, you pay for your forgiveness? If you had attacked us with GGA back then, we would have had the same war. Maybe with some more people on your side, but still pretty much the same war.
We are paying for our forgiveness with our infrastructure. Forgiveness for actions long past, many of which have been resolved. The diplomatic tension with Grämlins after the Green Sphere drama was never resolved, and I apologize for that. As you can probably imagine, it was not so pressing of an issue to us, what our Minister of Truth said in a private query so long ago. If you had lingering problems, we would have been more than happy to have accommodated your concerns diplomatically.
If it was already too late when Grub took over, then why is the declaration just coming now? Your delay indicates an endorsement of the Sparta/etc.-GR/SOLID war, and by extension, an endorsement of the actions of the GGA and Valhalla. Otherwise, this delay is irrational. We have been alienated for weeks. We have been outside of the Pacifican umbrella for weeks. You knew this. You waited to attack with GGA.
To the collective members of the New Polar Order:You and your allies have excused the killing of countless alliances by declaring that members are responsible for the actions of their leadership. I do not dispute the validity of such a statement, I affirm it. It's your turn now.
Expect the same mercy you have shown your own enemies. Welcome to the consequences, we're just getting started, etc.
Oh, and to all the people complaining about "boo hoo seven on one": it's a war. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the concept? Things are going to be smashed. And at the moment, "things" = "NpO nations".
Your "attempts" have been repeated trolling on the OWF, thinly veiled thre- actually, you know, I'll let the OP do the talking. Don't try to spin this as if you're the victim, everyone here knows that the NpO has repeatedly harassed TOP and is just pissing its pants because suddenly it can't cower behind the shields of its allies.
You will not be missed. Goodbye.
What is "leadership," as you're defining it? Are we responsible for the actions of Electron_Sponge and RandomInterrupt? Am I responsible for the actions of Electron_Sponge and RandomInterrupt? Or is the institution responsible? The Regent of Polaris did this, and I am the new Regent, therefore, I am responsible for all previous Regents? Your reasoning is flawed because the leaders are different. You wanted a change, and you got it. This is opportunism.
We are the victim. We have made so many attempts to mend relations with TOP over the past month, and you will openly say since Sponge has been deposed we have been harassing you? Give me a break, we have made monumental effort to approach your leadership and membership in a gesture of friendship.
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We raised a call to our treaty partners in our hour of need. Nearly all of them came, save a few.
The New Polar Order hereby cancels "The Polar League Accords" with the League of Small Superpowers, entering into the 48 hour cancellation phase.
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Diplomacy was simply over, we thought no matter how much you promised, deep inside you would always be an enemy and search to destroy us in the end.
Maybe you could have avoided it, if you publically expelled sponge and excused for every single mistake in detail. You know, something that feels like it is meant as it is, but both sides were far from attempting to make you do anything. In the end, everybody was calling for war, also because NpO itself has barely shown any leniency with their enemies in regards to responsibility for leadership.
We have been nothing but compliant since Grub took over. Allow me to give you some examples of our diplomatic attitude and our intent to work with Pacifica and the other major players of the Cyberverse
1) MCXA approached us regarding two members, CWC and Urban, about infractions they committed when leaving MCXA. At the time they spoke to us about these infractions, they had been members of Polaris for well over two months. Despite having 0 Evidence on Urban and a small amount on CWC, they demanded they be handed over to MCXA for ZI. Now, to you and I, this is clearly opportunistic bullying. Surely they would never have approached us like this when we had all of our treaties, all of our friends, and all of our clout like the old days. But we reached an agreement, 300 tech and the members would self-ZI, because we wanted to work with them.
2) Myworld was expelled from the New Polar Order at the request of the New Pacific Order. He was a long time member of Polaris, and a good friend to many members. There was great protest and great sadness when he was expelled, but we wanted to work with the other alliances, and as Dilber would put it, "play nice with others.
3) Chickenzilla was expelled when Pacifica finally presented their evidence for his espionage. We did this because he was both guilty and because we wanted to work with the other alliances. This decision caused enough controversy that some members even left over the decision, yet we sacrificed for you.
4) We permitted the BDC to be destroyed and canceled our protectorate with them despite a long standing friendship and close relationship. We did this because we wanted to work with the other alliances.
Every problem we have been confronted with, every need of every bottom-feeding alliance, was met diplomatically over the past two months (OOC: It's like Don Corleone on the day of his daughter's wedding.)
We can't apologize for the actions of Sponge. We can't apologize for the actions of Myworld. I am neither of those people, and neither of those people represent Polaris in any official capacity. We tried to work with everyone, we deposed our own Emperor in an attempt to save ourselves. I do not know how we could have done differently, but because Myworld and Ironchef had a conversation that implied we wanted to destroy Grämlins last February, we now pay for our forgiveness.
I am baffled by the nature of this CB. I am baffled by your (collective) conception of forgiveness and understanding. We did everything we possibly could, and again, I defy you to observe any specific action since we deposed Sponge that makes the CB of this war any more relevant than it would have been two months ago.
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See, it wasnt so much that something happened in the meantime to make us even MORE angry. It was just NPO doing their best to keep you alive and talking everybody out of wars all the time. They really tried their best, but in the end (and i dont know why, so dont bother asking) they dropped their protection.
I won't, but I do not understand how our penance is to manifest itself. As I said, no one can claim we made no mistakes. But this Casus Belli is punishment for the mistakes of a dead regime. As I mentioned earlier, Pacifica dropped their protection for us long ago, perhaps a week after Grub's coronation.
Declaring war on us for honoring our treaties with SOLID and GR, and declaring war on us in support of GGA and Valhalla is one thing. But this attack is justified by events that happened months ago and under different leaders. I defy you to provide an example of how we could have changed things for the better, in such a manner as to avoid this particular CB, irrelevant of the situation with Hyperion. It is understood one way would have been to have removed Sponge from our AA
Also I respect the civility of your post and the existence of your responses.
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Its multiple things. On our side, it was the attempt to drive GGA into a war over the green team drama, the attempt to split Citadel and Continuum and the numerous occasions of empty threats and talking behind our back. I wouldnt be surprised if you only knew half of what happened. Every alliance on that list has its very own reasons to want you dead.
Fact is, you got many people to believe you will hit them if they dont hit you.
And dont gimme that Hyperion thing, what GGA does on its own is on them alone. This was only a side conflict, we dont need something like that to draw NpO into a war.
I have to applaud you nevertheless, you really sold it out as you were the good guys and everyone ebil is attacking you. Orders propaganda is just the best.
Much of this is a long time ago, and I only remember some of it, but if my memory serves me correctly, we were first approached by GGA about the Green Team drama, and the possible conflict between GGA and Grämlins. I believe there are logs of Ironchef espousing the kind of jingoism for which you are reproaching us, in a conversation with Myworld. It is not fair that we were blamed solely for that event, but I cannot deny we do carry some blame.
It cannot be said, Polaris made no mistakes. But what would you have of us? Over a month ago, we deposed our Emperor and Regent and instated an entirely new regime. What change could be more dramatic? Since Sponge was tossed out and Random stepped down, what has transpired to make this declaration more relevant now than it would have been two months ago? We stand by GR and SOLID, as they stand by Hyperion against the GGA.
EDIT:
Also I appreciate the good spirits coming from the opposition. I eagerly await the fights over the next few weeks, and I wish you the best of luck
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Can you tell me the story of Valid de Impala again, who also did a lot for his alliance, before he went nuts?
maybe you're slowly getting somewhere near the real reasons for this war. ES pissed off too many people and insulted too many important leaders to be left there. If it wasnt for NPO, you would have been killed in an instant back then, and now that grub did something to forfeit NPO protection... you see what happens.
The real reason for this war is that Sponge was permitted to fly our AA? Given that, I can understand why you're supporting the GGA CB against Hyperion.
Grub did nothing to forfeit NPO protection. They said to us, dozens of times over the past few weeks "We've done as much as we can, we're not protecting you any more."
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Yeah sure. His slots are full with people attacking him for ghosting.
no wait...
He has done great things for our alliance, at least as far as internal structure and administration go. He is not a member of Polaris, and is not protected as a member of Polaris. We deposed him as Emperor because did not like the direction he was taking the alliance. However, his contributions to our alliance are indisputable, as much as you may disagree with his character and his foreign affairs actions. He has been permitted to wear our AA in retirement, as a memorial to his service.
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What was that with ES dancing on our graves? Looks like it'll be the other way round.
Electron Sponge is not a member of Polaris.
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I read the OP and came away less than impressed. Mostly because it's all BS.
Eh, the issue I have with the OP is time. If they were going to attack us for accepting Hyperion as a protectorate when it was on "GGA's list" or something they should have done it then. If they were going to attack us because of Jonathan Brookbank, they should have done it then. Nothing has happened in the last two weeks apart from a pathetic excuse for a casus belli in the form of the Hyperion war.
I respect a lot of the alliances that signed the OP, and I still respect them after this. But if you wanted to attack us for something Sponge said 6 months ago, you should have done it when it there was something to lose, when your integrity and your honor was on the line. If you didn't like the way Sponge trolled your election results thread in October 2007, and I know Crymson still holds that grudge, then you should have manned up and dealt with us. This is opportunism.
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Don't be sour because we beat them to the punch.
They'll be better off fighting a defensive war anyways.
Heh, true enough
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He was joking
Our reasoning for going into this war is in defense of our allies. Wether they admit it or not, members of BLEU were going to attack, and we gave them a preemptive strike...beat them to the DoW...thats all. We are now #7 in all of CN...We dont have to suck up or be a pawn to anyone. The fact of the matter is, we are allied to one side and the other side was going to attack our allies.
I won't even contest whether or not BLEU was planning to attack. Ragnarok said it was following treaties by attacking Nueva Vida and Overclockers UK. There are no apparent treaties to justify this kind of attack.
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We have an MDoAP with GGA & Valhalla
And neither Overclockers UK nor Nueva Vida are at war with GGA or Valhalla. I understand Ragnarok attacking Greenland Republic, Hyperion, SOLID, even us, but OcUK? They're harmless
Joint MCXA/TOP/Grämlins/Umbrella/FOK/RnR/FARK Announcement
in Alliance Politics
Posted
I appreciate the civility and respect of your post (and is that a hint of praise I catch?), but again, what more could we have done? We are not going to expel our members for having contrary position to policy (whether it be ours, Pacifica's, or MCXA's). Polaris prides itself on the freedom of speech its members enjoy and the comfortable atmosphere in which dissenting voices may raise their objections. He is not a member of the New Polar Order, but he is a (a rather large) part of our history. He has done many controversial things, but among those include some objectively positive contributions to the forum administration and internal affairs. RandomInterrupt was also asked to step down, and he complied. There were no other issues raised with members of our government by external forces during the events that led to the deposal of Sponge. What more could we have done?