[This Week in Pacificontinuum]

Regardless of whether the news is old, it's some interesting information those of us in the backwater don't really have access to. And yeah, I consider Polaris something of a gossip backwater since the war.

OOC (as IC, I'd have to disagree with the forthcoming statement): The TWiP articles add a flavor to the game that's been missing for longer than I can remember, and Schattenman, you seem qualified to bring them back. I'm not even that interested in who you're spying on, it's interesting to read and I look forward to enjoying more articles.

[New Polar Order Deputy Elections]

About the same time they figure out what your job description is!

Liaisons coordinate rebuilding processes. Obviously.

[New Polar Order Deputy Elections]

Who let Fallen_Fail and DarthActorbass into gov? >___>

And in the same Ministry, no less!

For the record, William Kreiger (GEWilliam) is an Imperial Adviser who has been doing some particular work with the Ministry of Love lately. So if you're wondering why his name isn't on the list of current government, that's why

Thank you for the kind words.

[Trouble at the MCXA?]

Oh, silly me...forgot to change my status on here last week...thanks for reminding me.

I helped lead the MCXA to a decisive military defeat of you. I don't have to prove anything else to anyone. I joined NADC because of their lack of need to be at the center of attention.

I don't understand why you and others are so intent to try and start conflicts and pissing contests when you're not even policy makers and think people have some obligation to answer to you. Your big fish/small pond comments are ironic considering you're talking to someone that had direct impact on the direction of the Ring Cycle, Continuum, and One Vision at one point with his MCXA HC vote. But even as high up the food chain as I was, I still recognize a bigger fish when I see one, and I don't pretend to be in control of things I'm not in control of. I may have helped create and lead MCXA, and had a direct impact on all of those blocs (and Bleu at one point), I would be remiss to try and assert myself as a significant figure among the senior most leaders of the alliances involved in any of those blocs.

Deep in our inner sanctuary, where the government of Polaris meets every night at midnight, there is one name we do not utter. We remember, with bitter hatred, the massive destruction of our alliance and all we could have done to have prevent, how victory was all but in our grasp and then...Grinder! For sooth, were it not for this stalwart warrior, our forces of evil would have reigned supreme in our effort to entirely exterminate the world! Your name, and your name alone, remained etched into the very fabric of our memories, as the mastermind - nay - the genius! who foiled our most carefully laid plans. With your army of champions (including what we Dark Lords call "The Valiant 60 Electors") you bested our best and defeated our undefeated.

[Joint Announcement from ODN and GR]

If you've ever had the pleasure of meeting our spam team, you never would have agreed to this. Might as well hand out the tech now.

Forward Polaris!

[Trouble at the MCXA?]

It almost sounds like you should get an understanding of the different situations, before you start spitting out accusing and ignorant posts.

I suppose reading "Almost all of MCXA's government left to form a new alliance and is protected by TOP," and remembering a circumstance something like "Almost all of TOP's government left to form a new alliance is being attacked by TOP" should qualify me as mentally unhealthy.

Are you claiming you don't see the similarities in the CEN debacle? I've kept the tone of my posts polite and the nature of my inquiry respectful in the interests of my personal respect for your alliance and the stimulation of honest discourse. I have no axe to grind when it comes to TOP, but as a member of this community, with something of a long memory, certain events sometimes jump off the page, in a manner of speaking. Tony and jstep have responded to me with courtesy and respect, and I have responded so in turn.

[Trouble at the MCXA?]

I know Tony already hit on this but you seem to forget the fact that we have an MDP with MCXA, the communication on this has been open between all 3 parties for a good amount of time. TSO leaves MCXA with the acceptance, if not support of MCXA (they obviously don't want them to leave but understand the situation)

The key difference in these two very different scenarios is that TSO handled the situation diplomatically, keep in mind that the leaders of CEN had run for election less than 3 months before, and were going to be done with their terms less than 3 months after in addition to the fact that they failed to inform anyone before the left (except for those they recruited)

As to animosity for the leaders of the CEN movement, could you provide a specific or any evidence to back this statement?

Again, it just seems a difference of degree, not of principle. An alliance's government bailed wholesale on their membership in both CEN and TSO. In both cases, a membership was presented with an announcement from its leadership that all were leaving. Of course, the reasons for the departures may be entirely different, but as I said I know little about CEN and even less about TSO. The only difference, as I stated, is one said "We will be leaving now" and the other said "We will be leaving soon." I guess I just don't see it.

I had just written a fairly long argument regarding the hostility against particularly Ski from TOP leadership, namely Crymson, until I decided to do a bit more research and I discovered I was mistaken. I had taken for granted his suspension from Polar government, per the secret terms that have since been confirmed by both Grub and Crymson, was a stipulation put forth by TOP and primarily because of CEN. After re-reading some posts Crymson made to edify Polar government, I was reminded not only was CEN not the principle reason for Ski's suspension, but TOP not the principle agent for it. In any event, I have no strong substantive backing for that argument and thereby, with respects, withdraw it.

[Trouble at the MCXA?]

The similarity ends the minute you start looking at how the 2 secessions happened. CEN was being planned behind TOP's back for weeks. Not only did Ski and UG undermine the alliance by recruiting from our ranks, but left others in TOP to clean up after them without so much as a heads up. I still feel that had Ski and UG been open about it with the membership, that the CEN would have been legitimate and the parting amiable. TSO happened openly, with the understanding of the outgoing and incoming MCXA leadership. This is why it's a parting on decent terms. TOP has no animosity twards the leaders of the CEN movement, and wish them well. It was 2 years ago. Hope everyone is happy, as this isn't an official TOP answer, and i'm no longer TOP gov't. Just happened to be gov't during the CEN fiasco. It bears little similarity to the current topic though.

Congrads to the Sweet Oblivion.

Well, maybe it's a difference of degree, and I can't confess to know much about this, but fundamentally it appears pretty similar.

I mean, the TSO movement was obviously planned, regardless of Libera saying everyone had different reasons. Different reasons or no, this was a coordinated effort to leave MCXA for reasons no one is disclosing, and forums and (clearly) a protectorate were already established. If I understand you correctly, the primary difference was MCXA leadership saying "Hey, we're going to abandon you in a week," as opposed to "I'm going to abandon you now."

[Trouble at the MCXA?]

I suppose since TOP posted their announcement in this thread that this is the place to ask them a question regarding their protectorate, and I want to emphasize this is not meant to be antagonistic, but merely curious:

In what manner does the Order of the Paradox see the CEN secession in the summer of 2007 from TOP as similar to the current TSO secession from MCXA right now? How are they different? If they are not different, why does TOP support TSO now, but still bear animosity for the leaders of the CEN movement going on two years after the event?

EDIT: I see others have brought up CEN before I did. Either way, I'd still be keen to see a Paradox official address the point.

-Z

[Announcement from the Multicolored Cross-X Alliance]

I wish the MCXA the best of luck in this difficult time, and I look forward to working with the new MCXA government.

[An Agora Announcement]

Would love to run with that. However, Agora has bought one of these...

From this angle it looks a lot like your foot. I think we'd all like to see your responses to Fallen and Penguin, if you have any besides misdirection.

[An Agora Announcement]

My Trade Circle:

WTF

NpO

Ech

Ravyns

=WE=

I guess that is a "yes"

Ah, sorry. I didn't mean to sound antagonistic, but one of our trade directors um...received an interesting message from an um...member of NADC government regarding a trade circle. I had interpreted it as NADC policy, and as it isn't, I'll take the business from the announcement. I'll send the response to you privately.

Best of luck with your announcement.

[An Agora Announcement]

Soooo...is NADC cool with its members joining non-Agora trade circles, in the interest of Blue Unity?

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

Congratulations on the treaty, Polaris!

*waves to Zbaldwin*

/me waves back

Genesis

[Imperial Statement from the Orders]

Oh I get it. You're trying to make my objection look silly by associating it with the absurd. I think there's one of those nice italicised phrases for that!

You admit that they have, as "brothers", knowingly betrayed, undermined, and unleashed attacks upon you. They have threatened you, forced your sovereignty from your hands under duress, they have told you who may and may not be your Emperor, they have told you who may or may not be in your government, they have appointed you an overseer from their own whilst giving you no such similar representation. They have done you unimaginable wrong even in your darkest hour and now you just drop everything and put the knife freshly extracted from your back into their hands.

This is nothing but politics. Well guess what: that noble alliance and its leader that you just signed the Permafrost MDP with has written the book on how to put principles before politics. Why don't you go borrow it, if big brother will let you?

Yes. Ultimately, I think your implication is absurd. Extracting my personal beliefs from the situation, if Dilber and Moo ultimately were seeking to destroy us, signing a binding treaty with us doesn't seem to be the first thing to do. I also included the "joke," if you will, after responding to your post seriously and respectfully.

I believe in second chances. A lot of your second paragraph is distorted and twisted, all of it has some truth to it (Except deciding who could be your Emperor? I can't think of any examples .). I don't see how, by putting 72 hours of cancellation clause in a treaty that, among other things, explicitly entails non-aggression, returns the knife to our back. Call me short-sighted, but I see that knife moving 72 hours away.

[Imperial Statement from the Orders]

You mean the same way I got out when this alliance you have just allied put a gun to your head? The same way Mussolandia and RandomInterrupt got out?

Or do you mean the type of getting out that does not disrupt your fantasies that everything about this is rosy and peachy? The type of getting out that the Pacificans shout at your members when they propose a differing opinion? The type of getting out your members will be doing when they see that those who have betrayed them so thoroughly are once again at their backs, knife in hand?

Give me a hand here, brother?

If Pacifica shouts at our members with differing opinions, then we will have a problem. If Pacifica points a gun to our head, then we will have a problem. If they demand expulsion of our members without just evidence we will have a problem. There are no rosy dreams here, Doitzel. This a treaty of equals, and we retain our rights.

I can confess to being disappointed in Pacifica's actions in the past, and I am not afraid to do so publicly. If Pacifica has approached us, as our brother, with a document of unity, with the ultimate goal of destroying and dismantling us, then they are far more depraved people than I am currently willing to accept. They've done it once, and I think they're willing to move forward as brothers.

But deep down inside me I just get the feeling this is all a *ploy.* That secretly, they're just fattening us up, letting us enjoy all the tech we can until it's too late. Then one day, they'll unleash their hounds to gobble all our tech away. When that day comes, you may say, "I told you so." And I will join you in Vox Populi. Until then, I am willing to put faith in their commitment to us.

[Imperial Statement from the Orders]

You're speaking to the person who essentially signed his own death warrant informing Polar and the world of the truth behind the NPO's betrayal of you all; I'd say he has more than a right to say a few harsh words when you turn around and treaty them again as if nothing had happened.

And likening us to a prostitute shows how much respect he has for us. I am indebted to Doitzel for what he has done in the past; when he slanders us so, I'll speak out.

This is not the Ordinance. This is not our soul on this paper. We understand as well as you do what has happened in the past. I sat in government channels when Doitzel and Doppelganger were invited in to plan their announcements. Pacifica has announced its desire to bring our alliances closer and we have respected their wish. This is the first sign of that, and nothing more.

[Imperial Statement from the Orders]

Perhaps as much as it burned to be called a traitor, Doppelganger.

Polar is and has always been free to sell herself on whichever street corner she wishes. Baffling, perhaps, but it pays the bills eh?

Get out.

[Disputing the Myth of Polar's Military Performance]

Military potency was never Polar's strength. You had a leader that was good at manipulating and forming coalitions. Your strength was in your ability to rally allies and use their prowess.

I'm not questioning Polar's determination or will. I'm just stating the performance of your military was not your strong suit. You seem like a new invigorated alliance now, I have faith in your ability to adapt and learn from this past war. I imagine you're a lot better than you once were now.

What are you basing this on?

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

Mission Accomplished!!!

*Proko stages elaborate photo-op.

[Dispatch from the Imperial Bank of Polaris]

I wish this announcement weren't so awesome. Because if it weren't, people might appreciate the graphic in the OP

Thank you so much to all of our wonderful bankers and tech organizers who helped with this process.

Forward Polaris.

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

Aww how cute.

It would have to be someone else. We don't even have a ZI list.

I didn't use TOP as an example by accident B)

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

I generally take the position that your Regent represents the opinions of your alliance. Forgive me if this is no longer the case, though I always held to that motto as a Grand Global Alliance Triumvir when I considered running my mouth at alliances I didn't personally like.

This is an OOC forum.

This issue has nothing to do with whether I like or dislike the Grand Global Alliance. I do not feel the decision that your (former) alliance has made was fair. It has nothing to do with my position in Polaris (or the position of Polaris). If I wore no tag, a VE tag, or a Vox tag, I would expect the same respect and the same answers as I do with a Polar tag.

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

So you're essentially negating what Ephriam did because of the usage of the forums? While the forums aren't as heavily used as a typical alliance forum, they are still the designated forums of the United Jungle Accords. The comparison of handing over the BLEU forums to FAN is a pretty terrible comparison, as the BLEU forums are actually unused since they are for a defunct organization, while UJA is alive and well.

And, from what I gather, you say that if I were a Polar government member who gave access to an enemy of Polaris, then immediately re-rolled as some random nation (say, BilltheButcher ), you'd be okay with that? Let's take into consideration that they only way you'd find out I re-rolled is if I told someone, as is the case of 98 percent of all re-rolls, you'd still take the same position?

Again, you're still sitting on a moral high-chair preaching right and wrong. Perhaps if I hadn't faced this issue either, I might take the position you have. But, about a year ago, we had to deal with a high-ranking member who abused his access in a similar manner, and the tough decision had to be made to go after his re-roll when he was discovered. I happen to think such a traitorous action is about as low as it goes when it comes to how you can best betray people, and probably would have agreed with the EZI decision even if there wasn't the element of exposure of IP addresses and email addresses. As the Grand Global Alliance Triumvirate also felt that this was an issue as well, then that's another reason for them to take this action.

When you've faced the decision yourself, your criticisms will have merit. Since you haven't though, perhaps you should reconsider preaching morality from your soapbox and go find something better to do.

Look, and feel free to disagree with me, if you guys posted serious RL stuff on the UJA forums then hey, I can understand why giving away access to it is important to you, just like with the WUT boards. I've been in several power blocs myself, and apart from the WUT boards, OOC and RL, which are your justifications for an OOC punishments, pretty much never entered into it. If you felt there was any RL information on those boards that were compromised besides your IP address and your e-mail, then I can understand that this breach of trust might be more severe. But it doesn't appear it's that way, and you're not in any rush to tell me I'm wrong.

To your second point yes. I think if you re-rolled and wanted to play this game as someone who wasn't DerekJones, but was instead BillTheButcher, that you should have a chance. Honestly, I really enjoy Cybernations, I find it a lot of fun. I don't think someone should be entirely denied the ability to play, as GGA is trying to do, for an action that as far as I can tell is entirely In-Character. If he takes things Out-Of-Character, then by all means, but your arguments that he did (with IP Addresses and E-mails) have not convinced me whatsoever.

I can't imagine all the juicy gossip that's been going on in the UJA forums since the time BLEU disbanded. I'm not in any blocs, pal. I gave you the most current and most relevant example that pertained to me. It would be like if Shan gave Doitzel Admin on the OUT forums. I can't imagine the uproar it would cause. Doubtlessly, TOP would declare EZI on Shan.

I'm not trying to preach anything. You have made a decision that I felt unfounded, I examined your evidence and found it un-compelling. I can't offer anything but my opinion, and that's all I'm giving. It seems pretty clear GGA isn't going to change it's mind despite a very logical case that has been presented to do, but I'm entitled to my thoughts and when I feel they are relevant (as I do now) I'll let you know.

We have faced this issue before. Griswalds gave private screenshots from our forums to alliances that could be considered hostile at the time; someone hacked GEWilliam's account to obtain screenshots that ultimately led to the war. Is Griswalds on our eternal ZI list? Is Harry Harper? We have dealt with these things in the past, and I still don't see your argument holding water.

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

When I left the Grand Global Alliance (and ultimately CN), I suppose I could have given Vox admin access to the GGA forums, and they might or might not have wreaked havoc on it. Based on one of the arguments I've seen against what Ephriam did (forgive me for not quoting it since it's pages away, but I'm pretty sure Proko made this argument), I would have been justified because I am the root admin of the Grand Global Alliance forums, and I suppose I'm in the right because they're my forums to do with what I wish. Who cares that my alliance was using the forums. It doesn't matter that the entire alliance uses them anyways.

Again, in reference to my leaving the alliance and causing havoc as I left, by those standards, I could have simply deleted my nation and restarted the same day. I'd be exempt from my punishments, right?

I'd love to see how Polar reacts to this situation. All I see from you guys are hypocritical responses to why this is wrong, but in reality, I wonder if you guys have faced such a situation, and what you would do. Too bad I can't give someone on the Polar forums admin access and then re-roll myself. It would be such an interesting test In the meantime, it's easy to sit on moral high-chairs about the issue and preach to the rest of CN avoiding making a similar decision yourself.

I want to make it clear I do not mean in any way to represent my alliance. Polaris as an institution is not opposed to what you're doing to Ephiram Grey, nor is it against it. Polaris is a body of people, and while in some capacity I can claim to speak as a leader of that alliance, this here is an OOC forum and I am raising my voice as a member of the Cybernations Community, not as a leader of Polaris, and neither is Katsumi. Beyond the two of us, I don't believe any members of Polaris have expressed anything more than passing interest in this thread.

My argument has never been "Because you own the forums, you have the right to give out admin access." I never said that, and I defy you to find an example of a post of mine with that in it. Additionally, I see the fundamental and basic alliance forum as pretty seriously different from a diplomatic (as one member of I think VE clarified earlier: not diplomatic but economic) forum that was largely unused. A primary forum for an alliance contains a lot of OOC information; it may contain pictures, real-life information posted in private forums, and other real life details that members of anything but a close-knit community would be uncomfortable with all over the net.

I said in my preliminary posts that the nature of the forum in question is almost exclusively IC, apart from the IP addresses and the registration e-mail addresses, unlike, for example, the World Unity Forum, which contained telephone numbers and other information listed for all the leaders to see. Now, you can prove me wrong right here and tell me that there was some very vulnerable and personal information on the UJA forums, but I think that's not the case.

My argument, which from this post you very fundamentally misunderstand (to quote what I feel best summarizes your perception of my argument " I would have been justified because I am the root admin of the Grand Global Alliance forums, and I suppose I'm in the right because they're my forums to do with what I wish."), is that the punishment being given out by the Grand Global Alliance is unjust given the nature of the offenses. If you read my last post, and other posts I've made in the thread, I very clearly support the actions that the Viridian Entente is taking, and I would do the same if the GGA were to limit their attack on Ephriam to a Permanent-ZI (that is, an indefinite attack against the nation and character of Ephriam Grey, not the player). However, as I've understood it, an eternal-ZI is to perpetually attack any new nations of the same player that may exist after the player has quit.

To conclude, I don't think you have a very established perception of the IC/OOC line. If you restart the game as a new player after handing admin access of, say, the BLEU boards over to FAN, I would be fine with that, if you were trying to play the game again in a new environment with a new personality. Simply recreating your nation, and acting the same exact same way, in my mind, doesn't constitute a reroll at all. If Ephriam deletes his nation and recreates as "Ephriam Green" and tries to rejoin VE, then I might take issue with that. But I don't think the player should be prevented from playing this game, at least to the degree that the GGA (or any other powerful alliance) has the capability of preventing anyone from playing.