Orkules
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Posts posted by Orkules
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I do however agree with you that people are looking for friends long term, beyond the war. There is nothing new in that. In our case though I genuinely believe that we earned the respect of those we faced off against. We weren't the monster that some painted us to be, but we certainly had teeth.
Kind of hard to be that monster when you don't win.
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So you're saying you have no CB, but feel you're owed a great deal of reps from us? Does that really make sense to you? Besides, who would've stopped you from hitting us without those treaties? I assume it would be a KARMA alliance, if anyone, and if so wouldn't they be just as much dishonoring the ideal of KARMA in preventing you from attacking us? Why no verbal assault on them?
Do you even read what we post? Like seriously, do you? Cause I don't think anyone in Vanguard seriously asked for Valhalla to give us reps while not being at war with us.
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Besides us being heavily engaged fighting NPO? I think we also have no treaties allowing us to hit you.
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Kick $@! bro. Good luck.
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1. So you're claiming Bob_Sanders = every member of Valhalla?
2. So if we had decomed all their wonders, all their improvements, banned aid of any form for 90 days, and placed a viceroy over their alliance, but didn't demand any reps - that would have been white peace?
3. So you once again won't admit that banning of aid was more damaging than 10,000 tech reps and are simply claiming we should ahve done both?
My problem isn't with you, and many others, being upset - you are free to feel however you want. Rather that you look at the terms, see no reps are included, and immediately claim they are too light and automatically claim that they are white peace. I can't speak for Umbrella but I do speak for Kronos and can honestly say that Vanguard, nor your, concerns ever crossed our mind when we gave terms, nor should they have. If you can tell me why they should have, I'm more than open to hearing your reasons. Kronos is neither your ally nor a close friend (not that we don't like you) - as far as I'm concerned, you are an ally of our ally and an alliance that we have no problem with but nothing more. I have no problem with you expressing your opinion on what should have happened but don't sit here and act like Valhalla got off scott free... if you do feel that they got off scott free, then step up to the debate and stop dodging the questions.
EDIT - Clarification of a point
1. Many of their larger members are represented there yes.
2. That is not remotely comparable. I do not consider restricting outside aid as anything beyond light terms, barely above white peace. In fact, it's so close I call it that for ease of reference. This is because it does almost nothing to restrict their regrowth. Not to mention, restricting outside aid doesn't do much considering their allies conditions.
3. Did we ever claim that? I honestly don't know which is worse. I know the combination of both, however, does a fair job of slowing things down.
You are fighting alongside us, and have worked with this in our coalition. You are friends of friends (I think). We would like to see some consideration. At the very least, you could have reacted graciously to our objections. You did not. You insulted us, called us monsters, and made it seem like we were insane for revenge. It does not please us.
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Stumpy - just curious - do you think 10,000 tech reps like what MCXA got (iirc) would have been more damaging to Valhalla's growth efforts than the banning of outside aid for 90 days? I'd like to see you go on record saying one way or the other. Also, could you give us your definition of "White Peace" just so we're clear on what is and isn't included in "White Peace." And Finally - can you provide proof of these so called "massive warchests" that most members of Valhalla still posses?
I think a combination of the two would have restricted their aid slots and decreased their warchests as they have to rebuy even more tech than before. Quite simply, Valhalla, like many alliances is this war, was smart and had warchests. Big warchests. Half of the use of a warchest is the rebuild later. With nothing decreasing their internal slots and forcing them to rebuy sent out tech to further decrease warchests they can sky rocket in strength.
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Yes, and it took the entire Continuum to bring down GPA.
It also took the entirety of the Continuum, One Vision, and all their allies to bring down GATO, IAA, CSN, and USN.
We're badasses like that.
It also took NPO, TPF, the OPP, UPN, and UCN to take down TDSM8. Who's the badass now?
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Please...die in a fire.
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Ok, I can't believe I'm the one doing this...but this is a bit absurd even for me.
Mhawk's Phoenix Federation does not deserve any blame or grudges based on Total Farkistan. They're not even the same alliance. I don't think any off TF!'s leadership still remains. Pulling TPF from UjW is a fairly silly stretch as far as I am concerned, once again the leadership possibly even membership is no longer present. Don't blame them for their actions, especially not those of TF!
I'm all for and completely ok with grudges and holding people responsible for their actions but that is stretching WAY too far, even for me.
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I can safely say I didnt know tpf had issues with mk, I thought we were on the same side back in the day. I was a member of tpf for like 2 weeks before taking over completely.
A lot of UjP members hold grudges against TPF for bailing on us and more or less leading to the annihilation of the Unjust Path during the war.
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I honestly don't remember people being PZI'd during the time I was there. You must've been one of the last. Even nuke rogues were let off the hook. With Slayer's fervent hatred of anything Nazi I'm not really too surprised that was the reason.
I think I may have been. As I said in the bit I editted in, I only bring this up because I don't want people claiming things that aren't true. Given the love for PZI (especially for those reasons) at the time I am honestly not too surprised it happened even if I think it was bull. I know I'm bitter, I know I hold grudges. Be where I have been and see if you don't. But I am hoping to move past them after this, even if it will be hard for me.
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Racist comments eh? Any truth to that? You must've been one of the few ever had that levied against them. That was before I joined up and I never saw anything similar while I was there. So one case of P-ZI. Still doesn't seem as bad as you guys make it out to be. By your calculations you'd think TPF would have dozens of people on a ZI list at all times.
Not really no. There were indeed some offensive joke pictures involved and the nazi mudkips are true (old gift from a friend in NoR, had to do with a joke we had about nazi mudkips in their military or some such shenanigans).
I think there are others who you PZI'd but I cannot say for certain. The term was so common then I honestly stopped keeping track of it long before it happened to me.
Here is the deal, I've told you we have no grudge on you or campbell for quite awhile. Now regarding when that took place. I was leader of a 15 man alliance under the guidance of a masked alliance leader. I've stated in other threads I fully went along with the world police thing and have long since realized it is a stupid way to do things. However the stuff posted there if reproduced here would result in me being instantly banned for racial and obscene slurs. We have vastly different tastes in humor, and while I find those screenshots as disgusting, I now realize it was not our place to tell you how your alliance should behave. I've taken many steps since then to refuse to pursue any of the many leads people try to dump on us because "X is a nazis zomg" or "so and so is ooc attacking X". We don't care any more it isn't our place. No I addressed your specific case in our no PZI/EZI policy stating had we exercised such notions in the past many would have been spared and there is nothing we can do to run from what we did. So for going along and for my part in your former ruler's removal you have my apology. However that was a long time ago and I think we've made demonstrated changes in that policy regarding both WN/WS and hostile rerolls (AUT for example).Mhawk, I had to delete my nation and hide my identity. I'm sure you can understand why there would be some badblood on my end. My posts are more in concern to those claiming it never happened. I know you know what happened and I know that you do not support this anymore. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm not trying to make you seem evil. I will, however, call people out and provide evidence if I see them lying or saying something that isn't true through lack of knowledge. I openly admit that I am a bitter player and that I have more trouble than I should letting the past go, it is something I'm working on.
As I said with Valhalla, I hope that you guys truly have changed or are willing to not allow friends to get away with the things they used to do, whichever fits you best. After this war I will give you that benefit of the doubt, especially given the honor and courage you have shown. That does not mean I think you should get off scott-free but you shouldn't get hit too terribly hard (I actually wanted Valhalla to get hurt more than you guys, as I've said you helped TDSM8 on several occasions). Once this is over, I'll do my best to move past my feelings of you based on the past, is that fair?
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Also, to those of you still doubting whether TPF has ever enacted perma-ZI I give you this for your viewing pleasure:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=12359
Term #9 is the one we're looking for I believe.
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Really? Was it TPF that did it or Valhalla? I remember Stumpy telling me otherwise, in fact, I think TPF was a bit reason why you guys were able to survive. I can spin the truth as well but I'd get called on it and I'll call you on it as well. I have logs of Stumpy telling me otherwise and I know Stumpy would've never left you behind. I'm not going to bring up the logs of my conversation with Stumpy because it may harm our friendship.
Valhalla forced the situation that led to it but I was in fact on TPF and Elysium's PZI lists. I have never been on Valhalla's list. Slayer was the one who told me if he ever found out who I rerolled as he would come for me, mhawk is the one who threatened me after misunderstanding that led to me revealing my identity.
So because TPF honored their allies in NPO they're the ones who deserve disbandment? Nevermind MCXA who tried to throw Polaris out of BLEU and betrayed them and later attacked them. Nevermind GGA who were a prime example of an alliance who uses P/EZI more frequently than the NPO. But TPF. TPF, an alliance that has never practiced what MCXA and GGA have are being singled out. If it's a grudge, hey say it's a grudge, PC has. And PC wants TPF disbanded because "TPF is a threat" to their future existance when TPF had the ability to destroy PC at any time but you know what? They didn't. And you know if TPF had attacked PC most alliances on Planet Bob would've been aboard with it, heh, including some alliance I used to be in.
So we'll single out TPF, why? Because they're the only ones on the Hegemony truly left standing and you want revenge. You want them disbanded. You want to destroy an entire community. You're willing to give up everything you fought for just to get some revenge because you just can't help it, they did this to you. Just take a step back and look at the game as a whole and how you now want to play it all. I will fight to end P/EZI because hell I've been there and you should to. Not advocate it out of revenge. It's a game and we're all entitled to playing it. But as you demand harsher reps and to retain some of the practices laid on by the Hegemony expect me. Because we'll just be on different sides pounding each other into oblivion over a concept that should've never been used to begin with.
Did I say you deserve disbandment? No. Actually I would say aside from Echelon you, of the remaining parties, deserve the least. You and Echelon probably deserve a bad beating and a good bit of reps. However, none of you deserve disbandment as I believe nobody deserves that forced on them no matter the crime. I hold supporting your allies against you because of your allies actions, not because you honored your agreement. That you were true to your word doesn't change the fact that you allied yourselves to, and supported the actions of, monsters.
I want TPF to stay. I want them to come back and I want them to change. But I also want them to pay a bit for what they did and I have never advocated white peace for everyone. Do you deserve to get beaten up a bit? Yes. Do you deserve some terms? Yes. Do you deserve something more than a tiny bit of terms? Yes. Do you deserve disbandment? No. Do you deserve utter annihilation? No. If my earlier post gave you the impression I thought you deserved as much as NPO I am sorry, not my intention.
Stop twisting my words. I am honestly tired of you guys doing that to us.
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From what I remember noWedge wanted to P-Zi entire alliances and Slayer and others stopped all that nonsense and noWedge didn't last much longer.
I also recall him forcing an inspection of our forums and my perma-ZI.
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If Valhalla got off scotch free, OG the same, and GGA and MCXA nearly unscathed I don't get what TPF has done that was so bad. They fought to the end. Never once did they support P/EZI nor did they force any alliance to disband or lay upon them very harsh terms. Why is it that TPF is getting singled out? Because they gave you the war that you wanted? Or is it because "rolling a hard six" really irritates you that much?
Seriously, what the heck did TPF do that was so catastrophic that warrants them of all alliances to be singled out? I don't understand it. Do you people not realize that they stood up for most of the things you stood for and forced the Hegemony to make some changes?
What did TPF do to deserve this? Please answer me because right now some of these comments are beyong ridiculous. And Orkules, you sound like a damn NPO IO after his alliance has been betrayed I'll tell you that right now.
Hi, I'm somebody who TPF perma-ZI'd. In truth I was eternal ZI'd, they just had the exact same name at the time. Stop with the "We never did it!" stuff.
Also, I would definitely say that I openly and vocally disagreed with the terms given to Old Guard and Valhalla, as did many others. They deserved worse. MCXA is admittedly the one of you that I cared the least about and GGA frankly I don't see as a threat even if we hadn't touched them, let alone forcing them to rebuild with terms. I think you deserve worse even if just for helping the NPO so well and loyally while they did what they did.
As for how I sound...not entirely sure what you mean but I assume it's the harsh terms and the like. Well you people do deserve it. But you won't get it because we, and I am included in this, don't believe in that kind of thing. You will get a reasonable amount of terms but they will not be ridiculous or over the top, even if true Karma or retribution would demand it.
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Well that says a lot about VE now don't it?
I suppose it might. Just as much as TPF caving to Valhalla for TDSM8's surrender terms during the BAPS War.
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65 Pages of this, and still going on? Are you serious..
everyone knows STA, and MK and a select few others aren't happy with these terms, we know it saddens you guys that Valhalla wasn't totally destroyed( that wouldn't ever happen anyways), so why sit here for 65 pages and bawwwwww.. the same arguement.. seriously. move on to some other news..
All you cry about Kronos and Umbrella, and PC, and there lack of harshness.. but honestly there the most honorable outta your whole Karma Bloc.. The point is, if you want people to feel you past pains, or feel for you past pains, do it a more respectable way, instead of sitting here just BAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW...
You make it very hard for me to believed the "Valhalla reformed!" bull that's floated through this thread. Good job.
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I don't think that matters much unless VE were incapable of saying they didn't want it.
Yes because saying no when NPO comes a knocking was so healthy for alliances at that time. Actually kind of why we're here.
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Your alliance took a nice chunk of reps in the WSM, also by your names logic if you take harsh reps from them they will just do it back lol, so white peace should be enough maybe removal of certain leaders decom of military. They have taken a lot of damage from this war and now know they just cant do what ever they want , that should be enough.
Yes, because that will make them learn not to pull this again if they get the chance. It'll teach them very well.
They need some terms, the deserve punishment. Yes, many of those on our side did some of this as well but they are trying to make that right. To make things even worse for you, some of those you keep bringing up actually did not want to enact the terms they did in the last war. An excellent example is the majority of alliances fighting CnG (VE especially since you people love mentioning them so much) wanted to give us white peace and planned to until NPO showed up and forced harder terms.
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Zero infrastructure, zero tech, and all of their cash sent to us. At the point they will have come close to paying for their crimes. That is what they deserve. It isn't what they're going to get.
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You guys rock
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I'll let you point out the fallabilities of your own statement. I do know TPF holds no P/EZI lists whether it was with Slayer or mhawk it's irrelevant. I can gaurantee it. Being at war is different, chasing rerolls is a dispicable practice that was picked up by cowards who used to run this game. I'm not here to pick a side, I'm making rational statements to help Vox better understand where TPF stands. I promise any Vox nation out there that TPF isn't actively seeking to PZI, EZI, or ZI any Vox nations out there.Yeah anyone who believes TPF has or had any kind of ZI list is a fool who don't know what they are talking about. What TPF had was an "Attack until the person comes by to make things right list" In all my time at TPF I don't remember any individual even Nuke rogues taken to even 1 ZI.
Hi, I'm a person who TPF PZI'd (though it was called that, at the time people still called EZI PZI, so it was the other in truth). I was forced to reroll and then prevented from telling my friends who I was. Nice to meet you both, please tell me of this fictional TPF that never had a P/EZI list.
Now, to be fair Slayer did give me a private agreement not to track me or search for me if I rerolled. However, if he found out who I was he promised he WOULD come for me. Mhawk honored this agreement and after a misunderstanding in which I mistakenly believed myself off this apparently non-existent list and put my old name on my profile, he threatened me with renewed war if I did not remove the name from the profile.
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Vox, you did something no other could have done. You truly started the process that led us here and your unrelenting spirit kept the movement alive until the day where your goals could finally be realized. I am proud to have fought alongside your alliance in two wars.
I will miss you guys. I would have joined you when TDSM8 but for my desire to help keep the alliance alive. I almost joined again when TDSM8 got ready to disband. I don't remember who I told but they talked me out of it. I would have been honored to call you brothers.
Good luck.
Trashcat's Corner: And They Will Look Up And Shout Save Us
in Alliance Announcements (IC)
Posted
Yes, we felt you deserved to feel pain for the agony, destruction, and sorrow you have inflicted upon hundreds of players. However, the reparations, as has been stated repeatedly, is more to slow your rebuilding than anything also. It also acts a a symbolic gesture.