Poaching

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1283027621' post='2434084']
You acknowledge some are considering leaving their alliance or having doubts yet say it's disrespectful to them because their membership says they want to be there. It's not telling them they have to leave or are wrong for their choice but recruitment messages present options which might appeal to what the recipient wants most even if they are already happy where they are.[/quote]

If they have made it clear that they want to leave their alliance and are looking for somewhere else to go, it isn't disrespectful. However, just sending random recruitment messages to one or more people in another alliance (or group of alliances)because there is a chance someone there might take it is a problem. In terms of options, there are plenty of places for people to look if they want to explore options.


[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1283027621' post='2434084']If you make repeated requests to be taken off of a recruitment list then I certainly agree it's harassment if continued with intent (let's face it, mistakes happen) though I do think people blow it out of proportion to the kind of issue it's seen as.[/quote]

If someone mistakenly sent one recruitment message to someone already in an alliance and that alliance declared war over it, I agree it's excessive. I also agree that it can be blown out of proportion. I'm not saying there is not room for mistakes, misunderstandings and just the use of common sense. However, you suggest that a person already in an alliance should have to make repeated requests to be taken off before it's harassment. What I'm arguing is that by the act of joining an alliance in the first place, THAT is a request to be taken off the "list" (in addition to the other benefits of joining an alliance) and to intentionally not respect that is at best rude. To do it repeatedly or on a large scale is harassment.

Thus far, the best way that I've seen an alliance deal with the issue of repeated, unwanted requests by a leader of another alliance that their members join his was, after trying to resolve it diplomatically and being told "no, I'll do what I want" they declared war on him only. I thought that was rather reasonable.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1283031250' post='2434158']
If they have made it clear that they want to leave their alliance and are looking for somewhere else to go, it isn't disrespectful. However, just sending random recruitment messages to one or more people in another alliance (or group of alliances) because there is a chance someone there might take it is a problem.[/quote]
So... what's the problem? Not interested then delete it.

[quote]In terms of options, there are plenty of places for people to look if they want to explore options.[/quote]
There certainly are but then sometimes it helps if options are brought to them.

[quote]However, you suggest that a person already in an alliance should have to make repeated requests to be taken off before it's harassment. What I'm arguing is that by the act of joining an alliance in the first place, THAT is a request to be taken off the "list" (in addition to the other benefits of joining an alliance) and to intentionally not respect that is at best rude. To do it repeatedly or on a large scale is harassment.[/quote]
Here is where we seem to differ. I don't see a nation being member to an international organization being a request to not receive solicitations to join others. There may be a desire of some not to receive them but in no way is a request actually made. The claim it in itself is a request is born out of the belief that everyone is happy where they are and consider it a bother to delete the messages. Additionally that another has presented other options to the one presently being explored (ie. ones present alliance) is far from rude in my own opinion. What they are doing while may be selfish at heart - to grow themselves by the acquisition of new members - it does present other options to the recipient of said message which in turn could be to their benefit. Even if they don't wish to leave there may be something alluring in those who sent the message which may spur activity in their present home to emulate that attraction.

[quote]Thus far, the best way that I've seen an alliance deal with the issue of repeated, unwanted requests by a leader of another alliance that their members join his was, after trying to resolve it diplomatically and being told "no, I'll do what I want" they declared war on him only. I thought that was rather reasonable.[/quote]
That's actually pretty funny. I hope the guy kept sending them to show that war does not prevent the sending of inquiries or requests.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1283036015' post='2434263']
That's actually pretty funny. I hope the guy kept sending them to show that war does not prevent the sending of inquiries or requests.
[/quote]

Sorry to disappoint. No, what he did was exactly what many other people in the "might makes right" world we live in might do. He ran to the leader of a alliance who he knew (i.e. me - not my current alliance, I'm semi-retired) with a very sad tale of woe on how he's being "raped" and extorted. He failed to mention any details regarding the situation leading up to the attack. Must of slipped his mind

So tell me, assuming you ruled the verse, how would recruiting from alliances be done? Any rules, our would it be a free for all spam fest?

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1283043946' post='2434354']
Sorry to disappoint. No, what he did was exactly what many other people in the "might makes right" world we live in might do. He ran to the leader of a alliance who he knew (i.e. me - not my current alliance, I'm semi-retired) with a very sad tale of woe on how he's being "raped" and extorted. He failed to mention any details regarding the situation leading up to the attack. Must of slipped his mind [/quote]
More likely he isn't a man that holds his principles in this regard above his own well being. I must say there are some things I do feel deeply on and wouldn't mind going to the mat for and other things that, well, I just don't care that much about.

[quote]So tell me, assuming you ruled the verse, how would recruiting from alliances be done? Any rules, our would it be a free for all spam fest?[/quote]
There's more to it then I can really say here but basically if the lines of communication between two parties are open then I don't see anything wrong with it. In the mean time don't open the messages and you'll likely see yourself off the lists because there's apparently a zero chance of their recruitment being successful.

[Timeline]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1282286595' post='2424201']
Recently, maybe a month ago, in the wake of a couple disbandment notifications, a list was created for the purpose of spamming recruitment letters to the recently homeless. Unfortunately I acted on the list too late and I sent a few messages to the recently homed. Apologies to all those affected.

After receiving a few "this is a cb btw" replies, I got to thinking: Just what is "Poaching", and why is it so taboo? Going with personal experience, I was "poached" twice. Once during NSO's spamming of Neutrals, and once by a sad little man who was upset about losing his privilege to lurk in GPA's public chat area.

Both of these attempts to gain me as a member seemed to have nothing to do with my membership. NSO's spam was either to test a long held convention on recruiting, or considering heggo's history as a former GPA member, just a fun way to insult Neutrals. The other was just a symptom of a larger fit over not getting one's way. What both had in common was that the object wasn't to actually get members, and to the best of my knowledge, no one took them up on the offer. So was it really "poaching"?

If the object of poaching is to gain new members for your organization, and the loss of these members being the most damaging aspect of being poached, is it poaching if it fails? It is obvious there is no way to force someone to switch AAs and apply, so wouldn't the fault of the loss of a member lie with the member who left? Is it an attack on one's sovereignty if for a nation to be successfully poached they must voluntarily change affiliation?

Why is any of this considered a casus belli? Convenience? Insecurity?
[/quote]


Well I have asked myself this question many times, The only reason someone leaves an alliance, 1) they are been mistreated, 2) They get forced to do something they do not wish to, 3) They are there to make up the alliance Strength (not treated as a member), 4) they wish to help a friend.

The reason alliances use the word "Poaching" is so they can try and scare off the likes of NSO, "Poaching" is by no means a "casus belli"

I would like to see more alliances try and recruit members from other alliances, for the simple reason, if you treat your members how they should be treated, THEY would not leave.

Take MHA, they have the most members than any other alliance in bob, but how many of those members WANT to be there ?, I was a member of MHA and it is a great alliance, but I bet a good 10% + of MHA members are only there because they have no where else to go or they just want protection.

[Manwe]

Gravedig.