Improvement Swapping

[Nova Blue]

What infra level would you say Improvement Swapping for Bills Reduction, and/or maximizing Collections is the earliest you can start effectively w/o incurring a loss by buying and re-buying said improvements.

*In general terms, not Nation or scenario specific (but you may include this in you discussion/reasoning if you want)*

[Senekis]

Around 1.4k.

[Voxamerica]

I'd say it's more related to your income, rather than infra level.

A nation with a better net income due to better trades, improvements, gov't position, etc, could start earlier than one who'd neglected them.

[Nova Blue]

Around 1.4k.

Is that the level where you noticed that you didn't incur more costs by swapping out one set of improvements for another (regardless of the improvement costs...'cause the more expensive improvements would obviously incur higher costs to switch)?

Thanks in advance for your response.

[Senekis]

Is that the level where you noticed that you didn't incur more costs by swapping out one set of improvements for another (regardless of the improvement costs...'cause the more expensive improvements would obviously incur higher costs to switch)?

Thanks in advance for your response.

That's when I started improvement swapping and it was already profitable.

I didn't start earlier because I was blindly following the thousands of comments about "don't start until 1,999" then one night I brought my calculator and started checking the numbers and yeah, it was safe to start doing it.

I was (and have always been since then) swapping the banks.

[Nova Blue]

I'd say it's more related to your income, rather than infra level.

A nation with a better net income due to better trades, improvements, gov't position, etc, could start earlier than one who'd neglected them.

Very true too...the reason I ask is becuase I was thinking the other day. As you get higher up and the Bills get higher, and your income gets bigger you can cover the costs of improvement swapping. But younger Nations, when they try to say swap LCs or GCs to reduce some bills for Banks/Stadiums, etc. the costs of those improvements may pretty much eliminate what savings you would've gotten.

At some point though (that right Infra level where your Citizen count/Income, Trades, etc.), will all start turning a profit in the improvement swaps, with the costs being covered, and your Nation at the very least/worst: breaking even.

I hope all of that made sense...

[Ogaden]

Yeah the lowest actual value to start is somewhere between 999 and 1999, but most guides assume you jump straight from 999 to 1999.

Probably something like 1299. It's almost worth it at 999 but in the end you lose a tiny bit.

Edited November 30, 2009 by James Dahl

[Nova Blue]

That's when I started improvement swapping and it was already profitable.

I didn't start earlier because I was blindly following the thousands of comments about "don't start until 1,999" then one night I brought my calculator and started checking the numbers and yeah, it was safe to start doing it.

I was (and have always been since then) swapping the banks.

That's some good info bro...what about Nations that are in Jump mode though? Would it be a loss for them, to wait until the jump and not swap until then (because of the incurred higher costs of buying the infra in smaller chunks at this stage)?

Thanks btw, for all of the responses so far...you guys have been great in providing different POVs to this question, and more POVs is always welcomed in my book!

[Senekis]

That's some good info bro...what about Nations that are in Jump mode though? Would it be a loss for them, to wait until the jump and not swap until then (because of the incurred higher costs of buying the infra in smaller chunks at this stage)?

I'm assuming you mean the 1k jump. If that's the case, I'd suggest to go for the jump before swapping. At that NS level, $1.2mil (5 lcs for $750k + 5 banks for $500k) is something you can't afford to waste, specially if you're about to do the jump. You can give a better use to that money and buy infra, then go for the lcs once you're done with the jump.

[Nova Blue]

I'm assuming you mean the 1k jump. If that's the case, I'd suggest to go for the jump before swapping. At that NS level, $1.2mil (5 lcs for $750k + 5 banks for $500k) is something you can't afford to waste, specially if you're about to do the jump. You can give a better use to that money and buy infra, then go for the lcs once you're done with the jump.

Niiiice....and then just pay the bills normally prior to the jump right? Then after the jump, when your Nation would be preparing for the jump past 1999, you would start the swapping because w/ the massive increase in income would = being able to cover the costs of said swap. Right?

[Senekis]

Niiiice....and then just pay the bills normally prior to the jump right? Then after the jump, when your Nation would be preparing for the jump past 1999, you would start the swapping because w/ the massive increase in income would = being able to cover the costs of said swap. Right?

Yes. (:

But again, as someone said already, lc swapping being profitable or not depends a lot on your nation's health. Don't expect to be able to do improvement swapping (at an early stage) if you don't have a proper trade set, good improvements, etc.

If you want to know if your nations is ready to start improvement swapping, you just need to do some calculations.

[Nova Blue]

Yes. (:

But again, as someone said already, lc swapping being profitable or not depends a lot on your nation's health. Don't expect to be able to do improvement swapping (at an early stage) if you don't have a proper trade set, good improvements, etc.

If you want to know if your nations is ready to start improvement swapping, you just need to do some calculations.

Thanks! Me personally, I think I'm good (have the Beer, Construction, and Fast Food BRs...and Schools, Unis, Bank/Stadium, FM, and Harbor setup)...but speaking in general terms I understand where you're coming from.

...mind posting the general formula/calcs breakdown?

[Senekis]

...mind posting the general formula/calcs breakdown?

Ok, first you need to choose how will you do the improvement swapping.

Some people like to keep 5 factories the whole time and just swap banks/lcs.

Others (like me) prefer to use the same 5 improvement slots to do the whole thing (camps / factories / banks).

If you're going for option A (camps, banks) you will need $1.25mil.

$2mil if you go for option B (camps, factories, banks).

Then you go and see what are your daily infra bills.

Let's say they are $500,000.

Now, I don't know how the discounts work... I don't know if you do ((500k*.5)(1))(.08) or 500k*.68.

iirc, resources don't stack.

.5 = camps

.1 = iron

.08 = lumber

Anyway, I guess you don't need to consider the discounts of the resources, as they should be already computed in the infra bill. So all you have to do is multiply by .5...

Then taking our example, you'd get 500,000*.5 = 250,000 <- This is the amout you're saving daily by lc swapping.

So... if you went for option A, you'd need $1.25mil = 5(250,000) + 1 day to make profits of it.

If you selected option B, you'd need $2mil = 8(250,000) + 1 day.

You may be asking why would I go for option B if it takes 3 more days to be profitable. Well, at the end of the cycle, you'll have 5 extra free improvement slots, and that covers up for the extra days.

[Nova Blue]

Ok, first you need to choose how will you do the improvement swapping.

Some people like to keep 5 factories the whole time and just swap banks/lcs.

Others (like me) prefer to use the same 5 improvement slots to do the whole thing (camps / factories / banks).

If you're going for option A (camps, banks) you will need $1.25mil.

$2mil if you go for option B (camps, factories, banks).

Then you go and see what are your daily infra bills.

Let's say they are $500,000.

Now, I don't know how the discounts work... I don't know if you do ((500k*.5)(1))(.08) or 500k*.68.

iirc, resources don't stack.

.5 = camps

.1 = iron

.08 = lumber

Anyway, I guess you don't need to consider the discounts of the resources, as they should be already computed in the infra bill. So all you have to do is multiply by .5...

Then taking our example, you'd get 500,000*.5 = 250,000 <- This is the amout you're saving daily by lc swapping.

So... if you went for option A, you'd need $1.25mil = 5(250,000) + 1 day to make profits of it.

If you selected option B, you'd need $2mil = 8(250,000) + 1 day.

You may be asking why would I go for option B if it takes 3 more days to be profitable. Well, at the end of the cycle, you'll have 5 extra free improvement slots, and that covers up for the extra days.

Thanks bro you rock!

[Einer]

I'll second the answer of between 999 and 1999. I started at 1600 infrastructure, just because I didn't see the point of wasting my time for smaller gains than at that level. At 1600, my income was 760k per day (with banks) and my bills were 370k per day (without camps) or 230k per day (with camps). If I didn't swap, them I'd make 15*(760-370) = 5.85m net profit every 15 days. If I instead swap on a 15 day cycle, then I make 15*(760-230)-1250 = 6.7m net profit every 15 days, or the equivalent of ~60k extra per day. Not earth-shattering, of course, but still a 15% improvement over not swapping.

Context: I'm in a B/C/FF trade circle (+uranium and furs), and my bills are a bit higher than most because I maintain a large standing army to beat off pesky tech raiders. I also swap my DEFCON/threat and buy a max soldier complement since I don't take any of the economic hits (aside from bills) as long as I get rid of the soldiers before collecting. My improvements for this calculation were 5xBanks/LCs, 5xStadiums, 4xFactories, 1xSchool, 1xHarbor. (Technically I swap out 4 banks and the school.) I don't worry about maintaining enough cash to pay 15 days' worth of bills since that number is small compared to my war chest. I don't swap factories yet, but will probably start soon. I don't tech trade because I travel too much and worry I'd have to go out of my way to make foreign aid deadlines, but might try to start anyway, since the additional income would be a significant fraction of my total income. Tech trading lowers the fractional value of improvement swapping, of course.

[King Da Ville]

That's all great info!

I've found that improvement swapping is for those who are patient.

I usually collect for at least twenty days before swapping for factories and making an infra jump. The first seven days of collections actually pays for the costs of the swap (for me anyway). So, the longer you can 'sled', the more profitable it is.

Edited November 30, 2009 by King Da Ville

[Nova Blue]

That's all great info!

I've found that improvement swapping is for those who are patient.

I usually collect for at least twenty days before swapping for factories and making an infra jump. The first seven days of collections actually pays for the costs of the swap (for me anyway). So, the longer you can 'sled', the more profitable it is.

I agree. All the posters in here have posted some excellent info for members to utilize!

...and yeah, 10 and 20 day sleddings yield some excellent level returns on collections, especially as your Nation gets older/larger.

[Jesusaurus]

It does depend on your trade sets and and how many other improvements you have. I would venture to say you can make a small profit with the Beer/Construction/FF trade set around 1100. If you have a random hodgepodge of resources, it may be closer to 1800 or even 2k.

[Emphix]

Listen to Senekis. He know what he's saying

I believe the foolproof number is 1,999 for labor camps (and that require planned backcollection days). For factories, it will be a bit trickier as you should also plan on when you are going to buy your next infra.

However, if you go micromanage mode, and plan (enough cash reserves, trades, and so on), you can start lower than that. Also, many people like to underestimate the effect of environment, it can help in getting more slots.

For lower infra/newer member, things like this can determine whether they grow faster or slower than other similar ranged nations