berbers
-
Posts
2,414 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Gallery
Posts posted by berbers
-
-
Who knows maybe the weaker nations are being used as nuclear sponges to remove those target nations stockpiles, which would vastly limit their damage output against the heavy hitters in the future rounds, which means they will be able to field multiple nations for numerous rounds keeping them staggered and with limited nuclear weapons.
Its almost like you think alliances shouldn't use strategy.
I think people should use strategy, I just find Umbrella type strategies abhorrent. Also it would not surprise me that the weaker nations were thrown in to be nuclear sponges so the bigger nations don't get hurt as bad. I guess me and Rebel don't disagree on everything :P -
OK, let's pull this apart.
1 Umbrella war turned into 4 Umbrella wars. Umbrella pushing Sengoku to the front of the firing line line became Sengoku charging in to right the wrong done to it. Umbrella callously protecting its stats became Umbrella not protecting its stats all that well all the sudden.
Opinions become facts when they match reality.
I was referring to the top two nations on Mongols, i originally thought JoshuaR only declared on one of those but when I rechecked I realized he hit both and changed my wording to 1 umbrella nation. I believe in one of my responses I actually said top two nations, but when I was speakiny of the monster nations, that is who I meant.
I never said Umbrella pushed you into the firing line, just that they didn't volunteer to go with you when you did. Which ties into my opinion on this war and Umbrella in general.
I Don't recall saying they were doing a bad job of protecting their stats, I think they do a great job of protecting their stats :/ -
I ll be honest .. Umbrella has been nothing but great Allies along with the rest of our allies with nothing but respect . End of Story
I am sure they will be as long as you do everything they want and don't complain. Mi6 used to say they were great allies as well and we all know how that turned out. -
But that's just like...your opinion, man.
Edit: that was meant for auctors comment -
It really boils down to perception, because in my mind a good ally would have worked with you to maximize the damage to the enemy and minimize it to the coalition. My perception based on experience is that this is not how Umbrella does business. For example, if Umb had a CB against SPaTR, I highly doubt they would have thrown themselves at those monsters without asking everyone to go along for the ride.We were the one with the CB. We felt it important to act on it ourselves. Solely depending on other people to do all of our work for us is not how we do things.
Does it mean we take a significant statistical hit? sure. Our allies were all informed that we intended to act to defend ourselves. How they've chosen to respond has been left up to them. I have no complaints.
But anyways, we can only go around and around on this issue since it's very much opinion based. We shall see what the stats say at the end. -
Two nations are very much bigger than the rest, which there are exactly 1 umb nations fighting.I count 4 Umbrella wars against nations with 60k tech and above. That's a different number than 1 for those keeping score at home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV7vGf4B4WM
What purpose does it serve to throw Sengoku nations with less tech at Tim and BONES while the big Umb nations hit the smaller nations?
Anyway, there is almost no point in arguing when this can be easily settled by looking at the stats when the war ends. If I end up wrong, I will aknowledge that, I just don't think I will be wrong.
And it's not like I expect anyone allied to Umb to agree with me, we all know what happened to the last Umbrella ally to question their behaviour ;)
Edit: 4 umbrella wars against the biggest nations, for kicks why not look at how many Sengoku nations with comparatively low tech levels are engaged on those same nations? -
Do you even check the things you say before you say them? Honest question.
I see lots of wars involving Tim and Bones, only 1 Umb nation got in on that though. You seem to have taken the brunt of that one. My comment of them coming in many days later and not participating against the truly monstrous nations at the level they should stands. -
Many days late and only 1 war declared against the truly monstrous nations. With friends like that, who needs enemies.Yes, by being the first to come in against super tier nations with us, Umbrella has truly revealed its perfidy. This won't be forgotten.
Maybe we will find out if they have turned over a NEW leaf soon :D
Edit: white fish (pollack) flavoured to taste like crab is better than actual crab. There I said it. -
It is a messaging thing. For example, couple of pages before;
Caliph just turns out to be more genuine with it.
Similarly, in our DoW thread you had Berbers harping on the same angle it was just Umbrella that was suppose to be the one to save their top tier while NPO burned theirs. It is a popular motive to try to play with.
I will turn out right in the end, if you take a standard metric such as nations greater than 25K tech right now and then look at that post war, I guarantee you Umbrella manages to have the lowest percentage reduction amongst the warring AA's.
I will even go so far to say I expect Umbrella to use this war to bring the world back to a time they had the by far dominant upper tier, before the IRON and NPO upper tier resurgence.
I can admit when I am wrong and will do so if the stats prove me wrong, but it's not like Umbrella has a reputation for going all out for coalitions, as opposed to NPO who usually shoulder far more than their fair share of a coalitions burden. -
But we're.....not. The time you said we did you apparently were incorrect, and we're in a fight now with the super-tier. So I guess I am not following your logic here. I mean besides vague misgivings and an admitted bias against us, are you offering anything actually substantive here?
I imagine that Sengoku and Umbrella probably talk about things at a higher/more frequent level than OWF conjecture.
One of the times I was wrong about, the others I maintain are valid.
Who is currently in a position to take more damage from this round of wars, Sengoku or Umbrella? I believe during this war the answer will not change. Maybe its just a fluke Umb takes significantly less damage than almost everyone in every war ever. -
Well I like some of the Doom Birds too, your company included, so it's unfortunate. That said, we all do what we have to. I would rather have you on our end, all things considered.
Outside of that, I could give a more cogent reply to berbers, but it would be lost in the shuffle anyways. It's not as if I ever saw eye-to-eye with him while he was NATO either, but propaganda is propaganda.
It's just really odd to hear about how were cowards for fighting when presumably the reason we have the stats to fight this war (at the level specified) is because of playing the game as it should be. I mean it's cool to not like us, but I'm wondering at who the supposedly unswayed neutral observer types are on here that are being appealed to with this propaganda.
EDIT: I mean, where the hell do you expect people to go looking for a 'fair fight' in a war? Do you want people to line up nice and neat and send challenges out? Berbers, maybe you should recheck your alliance affiliation.
I have no problem with a fair fight or a beatdown, I do have a problem with avoiding damage on the backs of my allies though :/ -
Any deployment strategy was decided in concert with Sengoku's desires. Had they wanted us to engage in the way you describe, we likely would have. Trying to make it seem like we sent them out there to sacrifice themselves is very disingenuous. Both of MONGOLS top 2 would have been declared on if not for an issue that can't be discussed here.
I never said you sent them out to be sacrificed, I said you will look at the situation as it develops and limit your damage, regardless of the cost to your allies. You will use things like <insert issue that can't be discussed here> throughout this war and it will result in you being less engaged than your weighting would suggest.
We didn't agree with the trajectory and pathway to that war and it was made clear long before it, but the amount of treaties we had on one side dictated our trajectory. Fark didn't hit an ally so given our treaty issues in that war, there was no reason for us to engage. Plenty of other alliances with top tiers that went unused who were more central to the conflict because of how Fark deployed didn't get any flak. The expectation that we go out of our way to fight on a front of a war that mostly harmed our interests isn't a reasonable one.
There's the rub isn't it, Umbrella has no problem with ghost declarations or pre-emptives or anything else as long as it doesn't cause them to fight on a remotely even footing. When that time comes it's always excuses like "well you can't expect us to go against our interests, my goodness"As Auctor said, Umbrella did engage AZTEC in that front and virtually no one was avoided.
I withdraw that point then, I extrapolated something I shouldn't have.As for the last one, we had our treaties with AZTEC planned before the Disorder war, so this notion we suddenly decided to shift last minute to AZTEC in order to betray the Disorder War coalition is wrong. We wanted AZTEC and the side we had been on in the Disorder war to work as a unit and there was an understanding we had with AZTEC on it. It didn't work out in the end, but this has been confirmed by both us and AZTEC plenty of times.
It didn't work out in the end, but it worked out for Umbrella in the end. Funny how when it all goes bad, it's never you left holding the bag though eh? Just people you left in the dust while you clawed your way out of tough fights over the beaten remains of your ex-allies and sometimes current ones.This happens every war and people bring up the same tired old lines. There isn't really going to be any convincing on either end and no one is going to be swayed in terms of their opinion of us at this stage, so it's whatever.
Whatever points you hope to score by trying to play some sort of "Umb is screwing Sengoku" dynamic won't be put on the board, at least certainly not when it comes to Sengoku.
Well I mean if we aren't going to express our opinions, what's the point of even having an OWF? I'm also not trying to say you are screwing Sengoku so much as reminding my buddies in NPO who they jumped into bed with. It's always good times with Umbrella until the going gets a bit tough...
-
Umbrella as a matter of fact did engage AZTEC nations during Eq. I don't know where you came up with that line of revisionism, berbers.
EDIT: actually I know full well, it just isn't polite to say where it came out of.I remember there being some discussion that AZTEC didn't want to expand outside of the TOP front, so I assumed that meant Umbrella wasn't fighting you, otherwise that line of discussion would have been pointless. I do not have screenshots or anything other than memory, so if I am wrong, then I withdraw that point.
-
It's pointless to argue your perception of past events, but fact check on your claim there: hartfw was sanctioned last Friday. First attack on a GOONS nation was last sunday and it was one guy. Those attacks escalated in the following days. Any deployment was primarily done with Sengoku's wishes in mind.
GOONS is not a sovereign entity at this stage, so any attacks on them constitute an attack on an extension of Umbrella.
If we're going to down this line of thought, SPATR aided known Oculus enemy, Monsters Inc, and that was the first act of war and there was no ambiguity in that and you gleefully said it had full government support and gloated about it. If you were expecting to be accorded any courtesy after that, you're living in La La Land. The only time you guys complained about people aiding Rey was when he was aided soldiers and you said you didn't care about aid otherwise. The primary purpose of aiding him is to finance preexisting debts and not to bolster his nation.
Weird, for some reason I thought the goons hit was right before the sanction, either way...
Your protectorate gets hit on the 13th, Sengoku engages with massive up declares and a huge disadvantage on the 15th, then many days later you decide that GOONS needs defending and declare 1 war on their top two and even manage some downdeclares on others.
Forgive me if I am wrong, wouldn't it have made more sense for your bigger tech nations to hit BONES and Tim while Sengoku attacked people with comparable tech? I mean you guys joined the party once nukes were fairly used up and Sengoku were pulverized.
Or was defending GOONS not a priority until Sengoku sucked up a ton of damage instead of you?
Umbrella has filled the majority of slots against big SPaTR/MONGOLS nations since this post went up, so unless an expansion of this fight is expected, I'm not sure what the worry is.
See above, they could have gone in first and actually participated at the level their nations would indicate they should in a bloc setting.
To be clear here: He made that post after the attacks, so he obviously thinks some master plan is in motion.
Not really a master plan, more of a by-product of Umbrella culture. There are plenty of examples, like letting your allies take on the other dominant upper tier in the first NpO/SF stomp by not engaging FARK, by not engaging AZTEC on the TOP front in Eq, even when you won the upper tier war on your front, by allying anyone that would be a threat to your upper tier and sticking a knife in the back of your old coalition after Disorder and now letting Sengoku take the big hits from super nations while you wait until its a good time to come in.
Doesn't matter. I only wanted the architects of the war, the people who set up the climate in which such a war would happen. Going after everyone who was involved in that war would be a bit over the top, and something I would have no interest in doing.
You do realize that some of the architects of that war are in your bloc right now lol. Why not just say you want revenge only on the people not helping you currently :/
Have you seen their war decs? They've drove straight into MONGOLS top tier.
Yeah, they dove into a bunch of people who have been pulverizing their allies for days, when they could control who and what got hit and when nukes were running low. Top notch people those Umbrellans. Oh and if it expands, they will use treaty ties to avoid the serious fight, you know it, I know it.
This war is actually a belated attempt at proving ourselves in berber's eyes. The whole collecting tech thing was just us overcompensating in a mid-life crisis binge.
Well your actions this war are just consistent with prior wars really, nothing shocking.
I'm just worried about the AA's in Occulus that I genuinely like, if this goes a certain way and Umbrella doesn't get things the exact way they want, in all likelihood they will do another patented side switch and end up rolling some good friends.
-
Heh, got to defend yourself against those aggressive Neutrals.
I've wanted to see you guys rolled ever since that war: I'm only sad that it took this long to happen.
You do realize you are in a bloc with more people involved in that war than are in SPaTR? Double points if you can identify them and triple points if you identify the ones also involved in the WTF war that you are currently allied to :/ -
Yeah I guess you are right, it's not like Umb had managed to avoid tough fights every war except Eq. Or bailed on allies when it would have meant fighting anywhere near parity in the upper tier.You're joking........ right?
I'd bet dollars to donughts that Umb already has a strategy in place to ensure their upper tier doesn't take as much of a pounding as everyone else's.
Edit: for example? Mongols hit GOONS before Hart got sanctioned, but Umb only engaged after all the big nations were anarchied :/ -
Nooo NPO, you guys finally just got a decent upper tier :(
Keep an eye on Umb, their best case scenario is everyone loses their big nations except them, it's bred into their culture to need to have the biggest peen I mean upper tier.
There would have been better AA's to hit SPaTR, since they have treaties that might have stopped counters, so unless you guys did this on purpose to lure in others, you might have been used a bit :( -
The problem is you have to wait 25 hours before you can nuke and the super tier have to many soldiers to anarchy with a quad. There is literally no way to stop the counters unless the super tier people are inactive for 25+ hours.
-
Did RUKUNU get two awards on purpose?
-
Mongols seem to have taken ownership of your unprovoked attacks.
No, I begged them to let me join so I could get in on the action, but you do bring up a reasonable point, I am technically at war with Valhalla at this point and it's not fair of me to cause them trouble to satisfy my bloodlust.
The said AA you formed, you all weren't even in anymore when the sanction even happened. So said AA, isn't even in play here. You then join another AA, who the only member at the time has been sanctioned on pretty much every color possible for the reasons, "rogue." So basically, you joined an AA which is seen by senators on the colors (Black, Orange, Purple, White, Blue, and green) as a Rogue. Not only that, several people have posted here saying they've been sanctioned on Pink for much less, and even Minc (who hates anyone on Sengoku side) has said that DK has looked to get sanctions on their alliance on other colors...are you saying their AA isn't a legitmate AA, but a rogue? I mean if you're calling them just a rogue AA, I would agree with you, just as I'd call your "legitimate AA" you formed. Just because 3 of you got together IMO to make up some AA to attack on, doesn't mean you're suddenly not looked at by others as anything more then some 3 rogues.
And to go along with this, Isolator has even used the term rogue in describing his most recent actions. The likes of "I was going to quit CN, and then went rogue, now I want to stay in CN." This, one of your founding members of your so called AA, describing his actions, as Rogue.
Hell even most heads on pink aren't against trade sanctions on the likes of Riley for his and your current actions. If anything, it sounds like Doomsphere are mainly upset with the aid sanction because Riley was sending DK/DBDC tech. Many also agree that what Bones action was an act of war, or using the sanction as a "weapon of war."
And finally, so now were claiming the alliances as a whole are not to be hit/attacked for the actions of choices of their Leader or Government? Only the person who did the crime should pay? Because I'm pretty sure every war regular members are hit solely because of the actions of their Government or Leader. Hell, people are hit because of a grudge/decisions of a past leadership of their alliance that they weren't even a member of back then. I mean, can't one say the same for the members of Valhalla that you're attacking? The decisions and reasons you dislike Valhalla are likely not due to many that have been hit....so why should they pay. Aren't they being wronged for something they didn't do or make the decision to do? Fact is, alliances as a whole are hit or the actions or choices of their Government, this is no different here. Bones is the leader in game of Mongols, and he also uses SPATR as a revolving door to join and leave when he feels the urge to.
The AA I joined wasn't sanctioned, a member of it was. We left the AA we created and joined up with another AA, at no point did we go rogue. KC might have started off as a rogue entity, but we forged an AA together with a purpose, we even had a charter but we Addaff lost it in the sanctions.
I personally view the gratuitous use of sanctions by Hart as an affront against Admin and I fight under his banner! I don't think MINC should be sanctioned either, regardless of whoever wants them sanctioned.
Your last paragraph about Valhalla is invalid, we declared war against an AA, all Bones did was sanction one nation, and then received a disproportionate response when multiple AA's were attacked.
I just wanted to know about Mongols providing sanctuary to those who hit our allies without provocation.
See above
-
Floating between AA's, especially for the purpose of rogueing another alliance, does not exclude one from the repercussions of their actions. Since you and riley appear to be indicating that you have dual membership in other alliances it seems that you are also saying that your other AA's have sanctioned (pun intended) your actions or at the very least don't care that some of their members are acting in a way that could be potentially detrimental to them.
The difference here is that Hart sanctioned a nation (who left his AA) that was hitting the ally of several of his allies at their request. Bones responded in typical Bones fashion and sanctioned Hart (a government member of an established AA). If people were upset about the original sanction, the appropriate response would have been to contact Sengoku and ask them about it rather than respond aggressively.
I wasn't referring to Addaff, Isolator or myself when I made those comments about nations floating about AA's, I was talking about the people that were hit on the Mongols and SPaTR AA's. Here's how it looks from my angle:
Berbers, Isolator, Addaff make an AA separate and distinct from any other AA
That AA declares war against Valhalla
Isolator gets cute and spies Roq, triggering an Umbrella assault
Umbrella gets Isolator sanctioned (which I don't agree with, as this was not a rogue attack)
Berbers and Addaff leave the original AA and join King Cyan's AA as our beef was with Valhalla and not Umb
IRON and VE engage people hitting Valhalla from KC's AA (totally legit, allies helping defend against another AA)
Hartfw sanctions Addaff on pink with no consultation or attempt at diplomatic resolution and breaks a bunch of TC's for unconnected individuals (I do not agree with this)
BONES, a senator, sanctions Hartfw for his earlier unwarranted sanction (I would have just used diplomacy and had the sanction on Addaff removed, but BONES does things his way, I do things my way)
Sengoku then hits everyone on SPaTR and Mongols, even though BONES is not the leader of SPaTR, nobody else on Mongols did anything and some of those on the Mongols AA are dual members with other AA's
I can categorically state I did not have dual member status that would provide protection with any AA, we created our own AA and did what we wanted. Sengoku applied collective punishment against multiple individuals for the actions of one person.
It's also common knowledge that one of the reasons people try to do this (and certainly the reason in this scenario) is so that they can go off and have fun raiding or w/e whilst giving their "other" alliance the plausible deniability of "well they aren't really ours atm." - but at the same time if something goes really wrong, they can wield the power of their connections as a potential threat to let them off easy.
So you end up at a point where an alliance is not responsible for the "dual members" and dual members are not responsible for any of the alliances they claim allegiance to. It's a great way to have your cake and eat it too.
But there's a point where a line is crossed, and when the leader of your merry bunch of raiders sanctions a leader of Oculus, you can't suddenly claim "sorry nothing to do with me I'm just a dual member". If they wanted to be DBDC members they could have stayed there and enjoyed both the perks and limitations of that. Can't have one without the other.I think there seems to be some confusion, three people made an AA and decided to declare war on Valhalla, this was not connected to BONES in any way. None of those three claimed any protection from anyone, although we do object to using sanctions against us. Bones clearly has a vision of what pink should look like when it comes to sanctioning, and he clearly thought Hart crossed a line by wielding the sanctions in such a manner.
The fact is, if Hart had not utilized sanctions against a legitimate AA at war, none of this would have happened. And they overreacted to the actions of one senator by hitting everyone, without even attempting dialogue, even though their actions precipitated the crisis. The only dual members who were wronged here were the ones on the Mongols and SPaTR AA's who did nothing wrong.
Berbers being just the latest example of this.
Nah, I was fine with Valhalla's allies helping them out, it was war after all. I just don't like people throwing sanctions around like that on a sphere that has very limited uses of those.
Leave it at a nation level? I don't think we've been in the same universe for the last how many years. I can't even take that as anything other than a joke, because that's not at all how things work. You can maybe, and I mean maybe, bring "where was the diplomacy!?" into the mix (which imo was out when BONES unilaterally acted without any discussion, as far as I am aware anyway), but do not waste time with 'between individuals' nonsense. That's just not how this works at this stage.Sengoku acted to counter the obvious threat imposed by MONGOLS. They would have responded, you know it, I know it. I'm sure if DBDC really wants to they can sue for peace with those nations, I doubt Sengoku would mind given their hands will be full. And maybe SPATR would not have gone, however based on rhetoric I see it was still a distinguished possibility. But to pretend it makes no sense or otherwise breaks from logic is quite frankly disingenuous. You can't even say it breaks from precedent, preemptive strikes aren't new, they were used in several of the last few wars for Janax's sake.And don't give me any of that "using that logic" nonsense. rileyaddaff was sanctioned on proper grounds as many before him have been and many after will be, the fact he was sponsored by Doomsphere is irrelevant as Sengoku is not a Doomie, is not in PECS (in fact they refused to join in the first place because of BONES, and iirc BONES liquidated SPATR's part in PECS when he raged that one time), and is otherwise unconnected to them. BONES conducted an act of aggression, in Cuba's words war, cut and dry. There have been larger wars fought over much less and the anchor Doomsphere alliances are by no means a beacon of virtue in that department, much less unofficial rogue pocket AA's sponsored by Doomsphere.My apologies, he's just listed as a leader on their wiki page, has a habit of deciding their treaties, switches on and off the SPATR AA bi-monthly, and remains their acting senator. You're right, no connection at all, and no reason SPATR would back him or send ghosts to his AA of Mongoloids.Selling them down the river before or after openly supporting your insurgency against IRON's ally? If it's before, you'd think an alliance as big and powerful as DBDC would have actually done something about it, as the old saying goes.Addaff was not sponsored by Doom, none of us were.
We have no idea what Mongols would have done, maybe used diplomacy? But they didn't really have a choice did they?
In terms of leaving it at a nation level, Commander Bean raided Valhalla, but you didn't see anyone run in to attack TAO. Why? Because people talked and resolved the situation, which is what should have happened here. And yes TAO was a DBDC protectorate, but Mongols is a SPaTR protectorate and they could easily have talked to them before reacting militarily.
Overall, I just don't understand why one sanction from BONES caused a dogpile on everyone around him without even a whisper of diplomacy, especially considering some of the nations that were hit.
And yes I am putting my nation where my mouth is, I am joining up with Mongols to help defend against this aggression :D
-
Far be it for me to argue with the great and powerful Argent emperor, may his reign be eternal, but Hart was speaking about the actions of 1 individual. If Sengoku wanted to respond to the sanction by BONES, why not leave it at the nation level?
It's pretty common knowledge that some people float between AA's but are considered dual members of other AA's.
What did Tim or Gatorback do to Sengoku besides happening to be on the same AA as BONES?
Using that logic, maybe BONES should have santioned all of Sengoku for Hart's original unwarranted sanction, since he was the leader and all.
This is a clear cut case of Sengoku aggression, and all world leaders should join together in condemning the actionsbof the vile pirate king Hartfw and his band of misfits!
Down with the Sengokuan Hegemony! -
Because they did, just like you hit Valhalla because you did... What difference does it make rogue?
I very publicly posted my reasons for hitting Valhalla, I just hope this new era of openess and transparency applies to Sengoku and they answer the questions that the masses pose. -
Bones committed an act of war against Sengoku and still hasn't bothered to discuss it. If you are suggesting that he is acting as an agent of DBDC and should have a treaty with us, then you are pointing your question in the wrong direction.
But you go do your spin instead of addressing that.
Why not just hit BONES then? Why did you hit DBDC members sitting on his AA?
Imperial Decree From Sengoku
in Alliance Announcements (IC)
Posted
So it's unusual for a stronger AA to declare with a weaker ally to ensure appropriate coverage? Because that's how it usually works when one of the AA's aren't pixel hugging manipulators :/