Mandolus

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1285221301' post='2461910'] I'm sorry, but if your really going to go and beat that dead horse this isn't the place to do so [/quote] Are you [i]kidding me[/i]? I can't possibly think of a better place to beat a dead horse than a GOONS thread!

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1285219907' post='2461895'] So, this was an epic read first. Second, your all idiots. YAY, lets go to war over 3 million in secret aid! Oh god, its so awful, he gave him some money, oh boohoo, now were going to ruin our best nation plus some of our allies best nations. Over all, this situation is a sad a pathetic excuse by both parties. [/quote] Oh good here's GATO, the resident "running away" experts, to explain to all of us how to best hug our infrastructure.

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1285210471' post='2461729'] Because the GOONS made such a huge deal about getting reps and making profits in every Meth related case so far. [/quote] Why are you intentionally ignoring us when we explain it to you? I mean, I'm assuming you read my post, the one you quoted, and conveniently left out the part where I explained this. So either you're intentionally ignoring our statements or you just can't read. Which is it?

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1285209299' post='2461710'] As many times as GOONS have posted bragging about all the profits they were making off him?? I just find it kinda funny that the "Billion Dollar Rogue" is now the rogue that cost billions. [/quote] How freaking dense can you possibly be? Do you seriously not understand that "we love free money" and "we love fighting" are two separate and compatible concepts? Making money off a pitifully ineffective "rogue" is hilarious. Fighting rogues is fun. Do you understand now or are you going to make another horrible post about how sad we are to lose infrastructure?

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' timestamp='1285206888' post='2461651'] Why are GOONS complaining they are being hit? Yall do this everyday to other nations, then you spy someone suspecting (I use that term loosely, since there was no way you could know he was aiding methrage) he was aiding a rogue. Then you label him a rogue, essentially backing him into a corner and forcing him to attack before you hit him. Jim is a sensible guy, you could have talked to him in private rather than trying to slander him instantly. All I ever see on the here these days is GOONS at war with various parties, has it ever possibly occurred to you that it's not them, but you causing this? [/quote] Hey look another of these nearly identical posts from someone who (willfully?) ignores all the facts and then tries to put negative spin on GOONS over someone committing an act of war against us these never get old please post more since your contribution to this thread is so very original and valuable

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1285206085' post='2461643'] I will be interested in the $$ tally from this. It's going to cost GOONS and allies waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than 90 or 270 or whatever to fight Jim. Umar is going to be over a billion in the hole alone most likely. Probably a billion each or more for every ally that joins the fight. So any profit GOONS made from Methrage is going to be long gone. [/quote] Money isn't everything my friend. What good is money if you just hoard it and let anyone with a passive-aggressive bone to pick walk all over you?

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285205063' post='2461622'] GOONS are the bad guy, why? Would it be different if it had been anybody else attacking any other alliance? [/quote] YES you fool don't you see this is totally different because here on Bob we suspend our morals at a moment's notice when someone we don't like is on the receiving end of roguery, showing our true colours as amoral cowards

[quote name='Ejayrazz' timestamp='1285203841' post='2461600'] I aided him. Do something about it. [/quote] I don't understand why you made this post?

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1285190759' post='2461338'] Yep, it's just passed 7am here in the Caliphate (OOC: I live in Australia /OOC) and Daikos is correct, I've been asleep. I have awoken to Jim's declaration of war however, which should be a bit of fun [/quote] You're my hero, Umar! You know guys, I'm in Umar's trade circle

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285179335' post='2461167']However, that still doesn't explain why your sub 10k ns nations often declare on smaller targets that won't fight back. [/quote] We love to fight but we also love liberating resources from those unwilling to defend it. This is straying off topic however so I'd kindly ask you to continue this lame anti-GOONS PR campaign elsewhere.

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285178587' post='2461155'] If you believe I am ignorant and that my arguments are flimsy, why don't you tell me what I'm missing? [/quote] The fact that our nations have been chomping at the bit to declare on these nuke rogues? The fact that we don't have a single nation in peace? The fact that our only nation in range of JimKongIl told him to "bring it on"?

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285177124' post='2461132'] I'm not going to debate with you about individual nations. It's possible that some GOONS nations actually don't mind losing infra, I'm not calling all of GOONS cowards. However, most of the wars you guys have are declared against smaller nations and at times with other members to back them up. [/quote] You are really pretty ignorant of the facts here and what GOONS is all about. These flimsy arguments do nothing but pull back the veil on your anti-GOONS PR agenda. Oh no, we use dreaded [i]sanctions[/i]. That [i]totally[/i] gives our low level nations the advantage against nukes and warchests and military wonders.

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285175317' post='2461097'] Most of you like to attack smaller nations and brag about being "bad" on the OWF. If you guys really liked war then you would be attacking nations that actually have the ability to fight back. You also wouldn't get your allies help you place sanctions. In fact, didn't one of you say that you guys nuked a nation to minimize damage? I'm not sure that shows how much you love to fight. [/quote] Look at my nation, look at my active wars, and tell me I'm not "bad".

[quote name='Naeren' timestamp='1285160407' post='2460891'] Manuel you should learn what /b/ really is before you start judging, idiot. [/quote] Why don't you enlighten me?

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1285171740' post='2461029'] But letting your allies help with "every rogue" proves GOONS doesnt like to fight as much as their allies, they wouldnt like you if you choose to fight your own rogues from time to time? What type of friendship is that? [/quote] We sadly don't have that many nations in higher tiers. Why not let allies have some fun if we are unable to fill the war slots ourselves? I assure you, most of us like war and don't care about infra. If I were big enough I'd have declared on Jim in a second.

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285145026' post='2460807'] Interesting, I trust my members to tell me the truth. I would ask the member if they did it. If they said no, I would pass along the message. If they said yes, they would be removed, the same would go if they refused to give an answer. If later I found out that my ally spied anyway, I would drop the treaty regardless and defend my member, pending the result of the spy report further action may or may not be taken against the member internally. [/quote] Ok, let's pretend you were presented the evidence that STA was. Your member has an unaccounted for slot. Which means, they sent secret aid to [i]someone[/i]. They've also been actively posting in a topic about the rogue in question, who has received secret aid. This member also switched colours to send the secret aid, and the rogue in question is sanctioned on the member's original colour. You ask the member if they sent aid, and they tell you no. You're going to defend this person?

Maybe you should find an internet community that isn't based on meme regurgitation and internet harassment if you want civil reasonable discussion

Next write an essay on why people care about spreadsheet numbers so much.

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285142930' post='2460794'] Its pathetic what GOONS are trying to force out of people as 'confessions' even if they are innocent to make it seem like they are making progress, good job to those who don't give into their demands and make each witch hunt a hassle for them. [/quote] Methrage, we were all sitting around waiting with bated breath to see when you'd weigh in on this one. Name one innocent person we've forced a confession out of. Right now we have two successes, one undetermined who all the facts point toward, and no failures.

[quote name='JimKongIl' timestamp='1285141868' post='2460784'] Who are you lobbying to? You should walk with your 270 mil in winnings and consider yourself lucky. Even if I gave Methrage public aid tomorrow you wouldn't get 90 mil out of me. [/quote] You aren't going to be #22 for much longer

From checking out Umar and Jim's nations, and assuming no one else joins the fight on our side, it looks like Jim would take far more monetary damage than Umar would in a one on one battle. Two or three on one would be a massacre. I think he realizes this as well, hence the posturing.

[quote name='JimKongIl' timestamp='1285139310' post='2460761'] I am stationary, Umar. I am responding to offensive acts against my nation by your alliance. I have chosen to not escalate this into war provided there are no more attacks on my sovereignty. It is your move and your alliance's decision whether they choose to escalate things. [/quote] Kill him, Umar!!

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285091102' post='2460086'] Fighting GOONS has led me to believe this is not the case, if your members are good at fighting and disciplined, its not because you tech raid or allow it. [/quote] You must be really proud of trashing a bunch of inactive newbies with your nukes and full wonder set (not to mention the help of UOKMB) because you keep talking about it at every available opportunity.

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1285063664' post='2459837'] Darn, until you said the part about realistic, challenging, and target, i was wondering when the Warriors could expect our DoW [/quote] I think that would have just been a slaughter. You guys have more active nations than we have total nations

[quote name='bzelger' timestamp='1285039332' post='2459594'] It's not really appropriate to cast the discussion in terms of right and wrong, and the insistence in general to continue to do so means that it's always an unproductive argument of "yes it is" and "no it isn't" which is unsatisfying and leaves each side with a less than favorable opinion of the other. In principle morality has a place; if for example you had a national religion that forbade wars of conquest and unnecessary violence and strove to minimize the deaths of your citizens, then it would make sense to discuss it in those terms. In practice we are all secular states (OOC: barring a few outliers, none of us role-play to that extent). In spite of concerns of right and wrong not really being germane, the issue has ramifications in terms of political philosophy and general personality, and again a single position is not demonstrably "correct." Politically many nations, including my own, feel that aggression against nations against whom you have no grievance is an unsavory state of affairs. [b]The underlying principle is that anyone who is weaker than you is a resource[/b], and the only reason that isolated alliances are not exploited is because of the political blowback that would ensue as a result of raiding them. We have seen these boundaries tested in recent times, and if nothing else it is a matter of self-interest for nations to generate political boundaries to baseless aggression in order to prevent their own borders being overrun the moment their position becomes weak. OOC: Is it a text-based war game with the politics incidental, or is a political simulator with a war function to drive politics? I'd much rather play the latter, and I feel that rogue nations attacking others is contrary to how I would like to see things go. I recognize that the former philosophy, or some intermediate, is prevalent and not necessarily invalid. I do find it incredibly asinine that so many respond to criticism of tech raiding with "hurr, you moralists can't tell me what to do!" Just because you can do something within the mechanics of the game does not mean that you should not expect consequences for them or that everyone should embrace them as mainstream and acceptable. Moralism and philosophy aside, you're being jerks to people. As stated above, raiders are not wrong to hold the position they do, and people who don’t raid likewise aren’t wrong, and it would be nice if everyone could sit in their own corner and do things their own way and not interfere with the others. Unfortunately raiders by necessity enforce their political paradigm (OOC: game philosophy) on other nations regardless of how the raided nation thinks things should work. Some kid is minding his own business and you take a moment from your afternoon to rub sand in his face. Sure, in this context you can do it, and I know that certain segments of the population take great joy in the unhappiness that follows, but don't be surprised that some people find it distasteful and that people don't like you as a result. This is especially true if you make the person dance before you turn them loose. [/quote] Yeah I agree with the bolded part, essentially that's what I'm saying here.