Moe Szyslak

TPE is win. That is all.

Best of luck with everything IRON. This little bird sends its well wishes and thanks for all the regurgitated worms as we fly off using the power of our own wings to carry us through.

Wow, shows how much I pay attention. I thought this thing was over a while back.

TPE is epic winsauce. Gratz on a year of awesome!

Let's not skewer facts Timeline and then say everybody else is doing it. I am Banned, as was stated prior to your writing in this topic, and I was quite well close enough to the issue to call it the way I see it from being in the drivers seat. You were never approached by me to join TBH until the decision was already made by yourself that you were leaving Sparta, and you made it clear that your intentions were to either help to co-lead TBH or join GR. You knew that I had made my own alliance as we were co-economy leaders in Sparta. I messaged people about leaving Sparta?! Oh really? As I remember it, you had been talking about you had some people in Sparta you wanted to contact before leaving and then I got dragged into a skype chat where you and about 10 other people in Sparta were already involved in a conversation about when you guys were going to leave to all join TBH together. Yeah, the fact that I turned a blind eye to the situation makes me in some part guilty of the conspiracy as well, but you masterminded that project. As far as the letters that reached TOP via Gre while you were leading TBH, well everybody around the bloc knows that you wrote them, so I guess we can leave that at that. Were my politics perfect? No, far from it. When ridiculous demands were made, I made ridiculous ones back, and things got interesting. Yes, I was prepared to hold people accountable for what they did. If Sparta had rolled TBH, there is no doubt that my nation would have got ZI'd, and I'd gladly have accepted that fate to stand up and not allow my alliance mates to be bullied around by constantly increasing, unjust, and quite frankly stupid demands. It's interesting that you say that the others left Sparta later than you did, but you don't mention that most of those left the same day that you did, and within minutes of each other. So don't play innocent. And we all know about your constant run-ins with multi's, or do I need to remind you jackthelad?

oh, Timeline is just as responsible for what happened as anybody is. Still doesn't excuse LoSS recruiting directly off of a protectorate's roster while the players were still members of the protectorate. I wasn't the only person that was there in the voice chat when Timeline said that LoSS had offered him that position and he was leaving TBH to take it. And if Timeline had come into this open forum to tell alliances that he was still out there and they should establish closer relations with him, I'd be on here to warn the world of the troubles associated with him too.

So at 2 wars per year (your average) and for the sake of your argument 3 days per war, out of 4 years of existance, you're saying that LoSS has spent a total of 6 days total making decision that show they're willing to support their allies? Seems to be a very poor track record to me. While you might want to come after me for calling your boys out, LoSS knew that Sparta was jacked in what they were doing. LoSS was informed of what was going on, I don't recall once asking them to intervene in the matter. (Timeline on the other hand may have done so, but as far as I'm concerned, LoSS intervened on their own accord.) My point is, that Sparta's beef was with Timeline, yet somehow LoSS has tried to skew it into a situation where I went off the handle. I'm not going to say that I was tactful with Sparta when things were happening. I'm not an FA guy, never should have been handling FA issues. But I'm not one to take crap from people either. Let me ask you this. Let's take more current stats for our example. If MHA came to your alliance and demanded reparations for something one of their ex-members did, yet MHA's charters and regulations did not call for the member to pay reparations for said action, would you pay it? And if you did, and they came again, how many times would you continue to pay it or allow them to inflate the number and charge interest on reparations for "wasting their time"? Personally, I don't think that you would take too kindly to that for too long either. I didn't. LoSS was informed because our treaty obligated us to inform them of the situation. LoSS asked to be involved in the discussions, and despite my attempts to keep them out of it, they got involved anyway. It went well as far as I'm concerned, until Timeline started talking about a week before he left that LoSS government members were telling him that he should join LoSS. Further, Timeline contacted everybody in the alliance to ask them to join LoSS with him. When Timeline left TBH, in a conversation with myself and AzAce he said that he was going to LoSS and that he had been offered the Minister of Economy position, prior to his departure from TBH. The next day he's sporting an MoE tag in LoSS's IRC and coming out a week later with his name signed on treaties with the MoE title. So far as I'm concerned, LoSS can say they never contacted him, and that he never offered that position, but the fact that he said he had been offered the position before he left and then instantly obtained the position when joining LoSS... well, I can read between the lines. LoSS poached a protectorate, and got handed a steaming bag of crap. Within a month none of those players were in LoSS anymore. As far as how ODN was treated by SLAP goes... well, I will let ODN talk about how they felt that protectorate went, and how they were treated by me. I found ODN to be an amazing protector for SLAP, a loyal treaty partner, and I am proud to say that I consider many of the members of ODN friends. I would gladly be treatied to ODN any day, and I hope that the ODN would say the same about me. I always felt that people holding ODN's past history against them was unrepresentative of their current alliance, because of ODN's outstanding level of support. I could only hope that one day I will be able to shed blood on the battlefield again in support of their great alliance. I cannot say the same for LoSS. LoSS was not anywhere near as supportive as you guys are trying to make out. Much love to Randy who was an exception to the LoSS rule. I always felt like he could be counted on as a loyal ally, and hope that my comments on LoSS as an alliance do not reflect poorly on anybody's opinion of him.

Great alliance leaving Bob. This is sad to see, and probably not as necessary as some might have thought. All the best to all of you.

[quote name='LordSlade' date='13 May 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1273791537' post='2297290'] I don't know if it was such a "great history of using allies" as more like a year of using allies. 1 bad year out of 4.[/quote] So 75% of the time LoSS is fine and 25% of the time you use your allies? Now that foot has been inserted into mouth, I think maybe I'll leave this to the court of public opinion.

It was more about keeping LoSS informed than trying to start a fight between them and Sparta. The only people trying to start a fight were Sparta, just I wasn't about to take any of their crap when they would show up with some ridiculous demands because they were butthurt over Timeline leaving and taking their entire economy department with him. (Knowing what I know now about Timeline's departure tactics, his attempts to funnel an "anonymous" email to TOP through Gremlins, and his attempts to join TOP in an effort to bring them to conflict with Sparta, I quite frankly don't blame Sparta for being a bit pissed off.) LoSS fell in love with Timeline and considered me the firecracker, because I drew a hard line and refused to negotiate with Sparta when they came with ridiculous demands at former members that their charter and their policies did not support as ways of treating ex-members, and I refused to play their little game of revenge. LoSS wanted to continually pay Sparta off every time they came with some petty accusation because they were afraid of getting rolled. Well to hell with em. Personally, I'll gladly go to ZI for what I believe. In the face of conflict, LoSS will just review the treaty. Only LoSS can lose more protectorates by betrayal than they lose by the protectorates growing up and blossoming. Are these really the treaty partners that anybody wants?

Ignoring the fact that the issues with Sparta were stemmed from issues they had with Timeline directly. The issues with Valhalla were caused by problems with Bella and Timeline directly. Sure, Banned put his reputation on the line for people... and made himself look like an &$& in the process, but he never waivered on that. And TBH talking about disbanding? That something that came from Timeline too? I don't really see TBH as having disbanded so much as gotten a new start under the SLAP AA identity, but if you want to call it a disbandment, well I suppose that's your call. As far as Banned being an over-reactor... it's true. I should never have been involved in FA politics. But at least I had the cahones to stand by people til they gave me a damn good reason not to. More than I can say for LoSS. Yes, I canceled the treaty after an emergency meeting with TBH government, and I led the charge to change TBH into SLAP, move to orange, and find a real protectorate for them, and a damn good one at that. :wub ODN: It's alright though, I mean I can chalk it all up to a learning experience. The only good thing that ever associated itself with LoSS was Moufassa as misguided as he might be for doing so. Oh and Randy was pretty cool too. As far as the issues with Sparta go... were they practicing bullying tactics because they had larger NS and thought they could intimidate a smaller alliance all because they had a problem with one person? Yes. If TBH had backed down and agreed to play Sparta's game and Timeline stayed in TBH would Sparta have played that game eternally? Without a doubt. Are these NPO like tactics? Maybe. Could be far worse. I just know it sounds a lot like a lot of the accusations I heard flung around during Karma about NPO keeping people in overly long periods of rep payments over minor conflicts. Sparta didn't care about the money, it was about making a point, and it was a point that I wasn't about to be tugged along with. LoSS or no LoSS, and shedding that protectorate was certainly no LoSS to TBH.

Ignoring the fact that the issues with Sparta were stemmed from issues they had with Timeline directly. The issues with Valhalla were caused by problems with Bella and Timeline directly. Sure, Banned put his reputation on the line for people... and made himself look like an &$& in the process, but he never waivered on that. And TBH talking about disbanding? That something that came from Timeline too? I don't really see TBH as having disbanded so much as gotten a new start under the SLAP AA identity, but if you want to call it a disbandment, well I suppose that's your call. As far as Banned being an over-reactor... it's true. I should never have been involved in FA politics. But at least I had the cahones to stand by people til they gave me a damn good reason not to. More than I can say for LoSS. Yes, I canceled the treaty after an emergency meeting with TBH government, and I led the charge to change TBH into SLAP, move to orange, and find a real protectorate for them, and a damn good one at that. :wub ODN: It's alright though, I mean I can chalk it all up to a learning experience. The only good thing that ever associated itself with LoSS was Moufassa as misguided as he might be for doing so. Oh and Randy was pretty cool too. As far as the issues with Sparta go... were they practicing bullying tactics because they had larger NS and thought they could intimidate a smaller alliance all because they had a problem with one person? Yes. If TBH had backed down and agreed to play Sparta's game and Timeline stayed in TBH would Sparta have played that game eternally? Without a doubt. Are these NPO like tactics? Maybe. Could be far worse. I just know it sounds a lot like a lot of the accusations I heard flung around during Karma about NPO keeping people in overly long periods of rep payments over minor conflicts. Sparta didn't care about the money, it was about making a point, and it was a point that I wasn't about to be tugged along with. LoSS or no LoSS, and shedding that protectorate was certainly no LoSS to TBH.

Post was a misclick. See below post.

[quote name='Co God Ben' date='27 April 2010 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1272411425' post='2277802'] I see a few faults in your logic, mostly based on ignorance of the facts. To begin with, although Timeline did come with drama, he was by no means the purveyor of drama in TBH. That title would go to his co-founder. Timeline told me that he left TBH due to too much of the drama. He was a minor part of it in the grand schemes. And we don't turn down members unless they are far more antagonistic or offensive. And Timeline wasn't the cause of any Spartan discontent. People leaving who were getting aided up to become banks were the real complaints there. Next, we never "confronted" Timeline to join LoSS. TBH was on shaky ground as soon as it founded, and we offered everyone in TBH to join LoSS if it fell apart for the immediate protection, as they felt they were being targeted. He came to our AA on at least one occasion thinking he wasn't safe on the TBH AA. We never tried to pry Timeline out of TBH. And I don't think telling one's friends that one is leaving an alliance is poaching, and that is what he did. He did the same when he left Sparta, LoSS, and probably IAA. We defended him doing that when he and his entourage came and put TBH on the map. We did not see the other co-founder complain then, but I guess you aren't him, so maybe you think we're just as classless for defending TBH when they were scrutinized the same way they scrutinized us. I'm guessing you were a party involved under a new name now? To Kochers, I honestly wasn't aware we had a MDP. [/quote] Your facts are horribly skewered. Those that were directly involved in the drama all left and went to LoSS that day. The problems with Cloud were caused by Bella and Timeline, the problems with Sparta were all centralized around Sparta's suspicion that Timeline had lured people into leaving Sparta while still a member of their ranks, and truth be told, after countless skype conversations with Timeline, he had. He also spread around rumors in the form of an e-mail leaking information to TOP about false Spartan plans to attack TOP in an attempt to provoke a war between Sparta and TOP. I can say that when somebody leaves and tells you in a skype chat that they're going to talk to other members of an alliance and ask them to leave stating the LoSS has been asking said member to join for weeks... well that sure sounds a bit suspicious to me. I guess my only really statement in this matter is that since LoSS wants to put their name out there on the market, I would caution alliances out there considering treaties with LoSS that LoSS's treaties have fallen apart in the past due to a serious lack of commitment to what they put on paper (unless by what they put on paper you mean their stats sheet, and if that's the case, they're very dedicated to preserving pixels and throwing you to the wolves). And for the record, when a LoSS government member tells me that there have been plans circulating to cancel a protectorate, and a member of SLAP tells his co-government members that he's been offered a position in LoSS's government running economy and then he leaves, joins LoSS, and is named minister of economy that day... I tend to think there's something fishy there.

yet even with the political challenges, you chose to accept the cause of those problems into your ranks? Whether there was poaching or not, if you were concerned about somebody picking fights with Valhalla, accepting the members that were the cause of that problem, or the problems with Sparta for that matter, doesn't seem to make much sense to me. and TBH, Timeline said that LoSS had confronted him about joining their ranks while he was a government member in TBH... so if there were concerns about possible poaching... the fact that he contacted people both that he brought to the alliance and didn't bring to the alliance and pulled TBH apart in an attempt to move members over to LoSS was a classless act, and sounds a hell of a lot like poaching to me. I still think LoSS is classless, but that's just this mans opinion. I mean come on man, a protectorate is like an extension of your own alliance. It was cheap and you know it, yet you still won't admit it.

Is it true that prior to the "poaching" incident that there were already government discussions of LoSS cancelling said protectorate with TBH due to political stress?

Why did your relationships with BTO and TBH as protectorates fall apart? (Assuming I have my facts straight here)

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