Kilkenny

Not to poke at you BG, but it was 17 at one time. That was how many we were fighting.

HEH, likely story. I AM COUPING THE COUPERS!!!! I am really in charge... They are but my puppets and I am the Puppet Master!!!! Let the Partying commence!!!!!!! Beer all around!!!! oh yeah...MHawk, have a good trip adn don't worry, we will have all the damage repaired by the time you get back. I have a General Copntractor on stand by.

You really don't know what you are talking about in this. Our nations have been rotating in and out of peace mode for 3 months now, all but 2 have been this fight, and all are decimated. Your argument seems twisted though (no pun intended). WE have fought and paid for it. For you to come along at this point and try this arguement again, is futile. The amount of aid the 2 nations in PM this entire war could dish out is not worth the losses they will take from war, and we need them to get us rebuilt and pay reps. We will surrender whent he peace terms get worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

Wow, such language from you JBone. I would have bet money you would never use the words frothy vitriol. glad I didn't.

MHawk, no. Me yes. But Mhawk calls the shots, i just make sure they land where intended. And that didn't mean that the feelings of the rest of the alliance were not considered. My feelings were personnal only. But there were quite a few who didn't, enough that Mhawk wanted to make things better between us. edit: Clarity

At this point, it is the citizens of TPF who are speaking, not just the leaders. The leaders are just the voice of TPF.

Uh, sorry to dispell that one, but Astronaut Jones has stated he provided information to PC while he was in TSI, and this was here in an earleir announcment. And Lynn Creed was a member of TPF until about 1-2 days prior to the war starting when she left without resigning and went straight to PC. IDK what you call it, but sounds like you had someone on the inside right up until the time of the war starting, someone who was planning on joining yall as well. Sounds like spying to me.

Ok, how about this one. I acuse you of thinking that all my citizens run around wearing bathrobes all day. I am not going to prove this, I know. I just know that is what you are thinking. Now, you offer proof you weren't. You see, that is where we are at. We are being told that since we have not offered proof of thoughts and plans (that do not exist) that you are being wishywashy?? Political?? however you want to refer to it. But here is the thing, where did the other side get this info?? If they made it up, then there is no proof. If they were told this, got screen shots of our evil plans, logs, whatever, then they have proof. Where is the proof?? The closest that anyone has to proof is quating VanHoo saying he could log dump. He was told to go ahead and dump and yet didn't. In talk with Mhawk, it came out that the source of his knowledge really had no knowledge, just this "Iknow" thing going on. It seems to me that the burden of proof lies with the accuseers, not with us esp since you really can't prove not having thoughts. But yet still want proof from us, again back to what you and quite a few others are doing. You actually don't mind that they did it while on your side, you just don't want to say so incase it becomes a major problem later that you support them. So you ask us to prove we weren't planning this, which we can't cause we weren't. Thing is, that eveyone knows full well that had TPF done something like this, you and everyone on here would be crucifying us over it. That is actually the amusing part. Double standards FTW Although as a side note i realize you will prob just side step making a definite statement again, as such statement would likely come back to haunt you in the future no matter what you say. Maybe in the future instead of trying to say something without saying anything, saying nothing will work better. Although I would like to hear a straight answer, I realize that I most likely won't. edit: side note

Oh I did, I just discounted it because it all sounded like political double talk that really said nothing at all. You seem to want to support PC in this, but are afraid that if it turns out that public opinion really goes away from them, you are covered in that direction to. Talk about other people reading, why don't you read back yourself. If there is proof that it was done this way, other than the standard "I know it was cause I know" then show it. Anyone. Given the number of spies that have been in and out of TPF, esp from PC, it should be easy to find. I mean it was common knowledge according to everyone that we did it on purpose, so where is it. Oh, and by the way, I was responding to someone else......I have always fond that when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that got hit. (in case you didn't get it, I threw a generalization out there with no names attached and you got upset, probably means you felt like it refered to you.)

The way someone looks by saying what PC did was ok.

The problem is now TPF's membership is the one outraged. Slayer may not have liked PC very much and tried to have the destroyed, but he didn't. Even when mhawk had them isolated he did nothing. Why?? The general membership for the most part was still friends with most of the guys in PC, and seeing that the dislike was generally done by Slayer Mhawk decided to open up dialouge with PC to improve relations. But that door was constantly slammed in his face by PC. Action after action by PC has angered more and more of the membership of TPF until we have had enough. They constantly talk of our plans to destroy them and that they know this stuff, but where is the proof?? They have had spies in TPF for a long time, Astronaut Jones, an admitted PC spy, and the latest was Lynn Creed, who left TPF right after the message went out about war starting and ran straight into PC's arms. Yet not one screen shot of our forums talking about our actual plans to destroy them, not even a screen shot about this clause in the NAP we supposedly put in there so we could destroy them. There have been countless members who have left PC to come back to TPF, to only go back to PC and still none of this exists. Could it be that this is all a fantasy of PC's?? Well, there dreams just may well have come true. The last slap in the face, raiding our protectorate while we were at war with them and then demanding we pay them the reps PC owes them is too much. I am not sure how many times you expect us to extend our hand in friendship only to have it slapped away. It took a lot of guts for mhawk to stand up to Slayer about PC and he caught a lot of crap for it. And now guess what, he gets the "I told you so" crap thrown at him. Way to prove Slayer true guys. edit: clarity

I see what you are saying. I never really thought that you believed it was ok, but with everything else going on and the flat not likeing TPF part (although that may be more others) I just wanted to get it clarified. If you did and had I would have been very disappointed. I actually don't think less of you for your opinion now that it is laid out like that and I have my question answered, I actually think I understand what you are saying a little better now. i would also hope you can understand we have taken a stand on principle and will continue to stand there in spite of where it may lead us.

Because PC owes those reps to California, not us. By raising the amount 120mil they are demanding we pay for their mistake, and we won't do that.

It was raised first adding in that amount. then offered to lower by the same amount. In effect we pay the reps to California.

It was mentioned in direct PC to TPF talks. That is how they came up with their figure. They in fact told us they would lower their rep amount from us if we agreed to pay California directly. Lower it the exact amount they owe California.

The problem is he couldn't. The proof didn't exist and if he did log dump it, it would show he didn't know what he was talking about.

The why don't you answer the question?? Is that ok for PC to do??

I think you have no idea who I am or where I was during the polar war. I was the MoD of Atarax, a protectorate of Polar then. We were jumped by PC, nuked (after reaching, we thought, an agreement of no nukes between us (we thought we were friends)) Threatened with ZI for nuking back, given a horrible set of terms first (mostly OOC attacks) and then ended up disbanding after giving away tech to PC to settle our reps. So find out soemthing before you jump. I also talked to Tyga about merging Atarax into STA when we were going to disband before talking to TPF again and deciding that the changes in TPF warrented my coming back. My post was for Tyga because I want an answer to the question, which you dodged. edit: spelling

So you are ok with them just charging us with paying their reps for their mistake???? That will be good to remember in the future. The fact is that PC should have already been paying California the reps. They owe them the reps, not us. Now if they had lowered their INITIAL amount by the 120 mil and asked us to pay it directly to California, mhawk might have considered it. But they raised the amount asked for by 120 mil. Sorry, that don't fly with us.

I am just curious how you feel about this Tyga: PC promised reps to California in the tune of 120 mil PC then raised the reps demand from us by 120 mil, to pay California PC offered to lower the reps back down 120 mil, but only if we paid 120 mil to California. That was the straw that broke the camels back for the membership. Even if Mhawk agreed to the terms, the number of nations who have absolutly refused to pay one red cent to PC is long, and includes almost all of the nations who have teh resources to pay those reps. The dog wags teh tail, but sometimes the tail wags the dog. If you can't understand that, then you have truely changed from when I knew you during the Polar war, and I am sorry for that. I know it was a tough time, I was there too. I hope you can move past that time.

OK, this is too incorrect to let go by while I catch up. At no time has ANY memeber of TPF said this. This is incorrect. We did NOT put that clause in there for teh purposes of attacking. It was a badly written clause is all it was.

I wish he would have too, then we would have the proof that he didn't know what he was talking about. Also must add o/ NoR o/ KingZog....i knew there was a reason I liked you

Sorry to tell you it isn't TPF's leadership that is saying this, but TPF.

I know you are not quoting someone from PC, but we will never disband.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. PC was NEVER a target of any planned attack by us. I know, I made the plans. There were 2 alliances that were going to be targeted, and one of them was the one we attacked. Rumors don't mean nothing, nothing at all. The only talk about PC getting hit was by the spy we caught in a setup we did. That was all. */ to cover all the "but I was told by so and so and he knows", I am the MoW and I make the attack plans based off of what Mhawk tells me, and PC won't it. As far as so and so goes, he ain't it.