Iceknave

With everybody on the "same side", it's very easy to manipulate the truth in whatever direction you want. With at least 18 alliances in the room, I highly doubt consensus would be so easily reached, given that we are talking about terms for NPO. I would think at least several alliances would favor terms that were harsher than already presented. Thank you for the clarification. However, if the pre-terms were never dropped and incorporated into the present terms, then shouldn't the present terms still be increasing until peace is accepted or was the acceptance of peace by NPO portion of the pre-terms dropped? The pre-terms were not limited by any factor save for the acceptance of peace by NPO.

The date of that IRC conversation is on June 10th. That tells me nothing about what might have happened between the time Londo suggested the terms be at the time of signing rather than at the end of the time of 2 weeks of war and the time at which the Emperor of NPO posted the rejection of said terms. In addition, it says nothing about whether all of the other alliances involved agreed with Londo's proposal. This is not just 1 alliance getting surrender from another alliance. This is a large coalition that have different motivations, different goals, different ideologies, and different ideas of what is harsh and reasonable and what is impossible to fulfill. For all we know, Londo's proposal was considered and rejected by a majority of Karma after deciding that the reps alone would not cripple NPO enough despite Londo's efforts to moderate and present terms that NPO would accept. The terms were then edited to reflect Londo's proposal rather than the more aggressive proposal that I refer to AFTER the more aggressive proposal was presented to NPO in order to gain PR points. So far, I have seen 3 major representatives of Karma (My apologies if you have represented Karma in talks, but are not recognized here). TheNeverender (Archon) of MK (The initial speech introducing Karma to the rest of the community) Londo Mollari of Athens (The moderator/presenter of the terms that we are arguing now) GenLee of RoK (The presenter of the pre-terms that were later dropped) Without a clear voice to represent all of Karma, it is difficult to say which voice of Karma is presenting the actual terms that all of Karma has agreed to, however reluctant they may be to do so. Nothing is fair in war.

If the terms that you posted were edited AFTER the terms were presented to NPO leadership and to the Body Republic of NPO and rejected on June 12, then of course your version of the terms are going to be less severe to NPO and yet, those AREN"T the terms presented to NPO. Although not as well informed to the discussions involved as is true of most members involved in this global conflict, I have heard rumors to this effect already. I can think of no reason for a coalition to do such a thing aside from one. That is to present the image that NPO was being stupid to reject your terms in the first place, opening up and strengthening another offensive theater of warfare. However, the terms that were presented to NPO and to the Body Republic of the NPO were as I have stated. These terms I had verified today by an IO in NPO before posting anything today.

Did you or did you not read the quoted portion of the terms for surrender? There is a reason WHY I quoted portions of the surrender documents presented to NPO. The terms as presented to the Body Republic of NPO AND in the Imperial Decree announcing the rejection of the terms linked in my post, clearly states the following: Please see this statement by the Emperor of NPO, TrotskysRevenge, which clearly states what I stated above in this post and in my earlier post. In addition, I had the terms confirmed by an Imperial Officer of NPO before posting this analysis. @LeVentNoir Please do not selectively read my analysis as well. In my analysis, I stated the following: When in a superior position, terms are dictated by the one in the superior position, not by the one in the inferior position as is often stated by members of Karma. Logically, there is no reason for Karma to adjust the terms to reflect the ability of NPO to pay said terms while being in the superior position.

A member of the Imperial Bank of NPO, Cortath, has already posted on the subject of tech losses. You may read his conclusions here. Cortath's estimate was 2115.2 tech for 2 weeks of nuclear warfare. Bob Janova, a highly respected member of the community and member of The Order of Grämlins (as I understand it), had revised Cortath's estimate here and came up with the value of 1670 tech lost in 2 weeks of nuclear warfare. Both of these values are within my stated possible range of tech damages and even then it still exceeds the assumed time frame of 6 months for repayment of all reps. It is difficult to sift through the thousands of posts to find a specific post, so this is what I could find in a short time, which presents both sides. Edit in response to Trintie's edit: You are missing aircraft damages. In addition, you assume that Karma will not pick its best, its brightest, and its most bloodthirsty nations to fight in this 2 week period of nuclear warfare. Such is unlikely as they will be eager for blood after several weeks of having nothing to do, but send money to nations down below.

Forgive me if I'm not as eloquent in speech as some of my NPO comrades. The terms as presented to NPO are so harsh that the minimum time for NPO to complete just paying the tech reps alone is anywhere from 7 months to almost 5 years. This is using the status of NPO as of June 12th or so as that was when I made my independent analysis on my own to determine whether the terms were payable or not. This takes into account a number of variables including the following: Tech Damages of 1.4k, 2k, and 3k in 2 weeks of blistering nuclear warfare. Efficiency of 50% and 100% The use of 5 Aid Slots per nation capable of paying reps under the Karma conditions as presented to the BR of NPO and as stated here. 1.4k Tech Damage 100% Efficiency: 7.4 months 1.4k Tech Damage 50% Efficiency: 14.8 months 2k Tech Damage 100% Efficiency: 13.3 months 2k Tech Damage 50% Efficiency: 26.6 months 3k Tech Damage 100% Efficiency: 28.6 months 3k Tech Damage 50% Efficiency: 57.2 months Karma will make the argument that it is only nations that have at least 1k tech at the start of the 14 day war period that are eligible to pay tech reps. However, in the terms presented to NPO, such is NOT the case. The terms clearly state that only nations that have at least 1k tech at the END of the 14 day war period that are eligible to pay tech reps. The term mentioned I have quoted below for reference with the part that is interpreted by both sides differently in bold and have reconfirmed after speaking to one of my government's officials qualified as to speak of the exact terms presented. In the worst case of 3k tech damage per NPO nation, there would remain only 14 NPO nations eligible to pay tech reps. With 2k tech damage, only 30 NPO nations would be eligible and at 1.4k tech damage, only 54 nations would be eligible. I am a member of the Body Republic of NPO and I have never been in a government position in NPO or in any alliance and even then I consider these terms to be so beyond harsh that stating these terms are draconian is being polite. Karma calculations have pretty much always assumed that something in the neighborhood of 178 NPO nations would be eligible to pay reps. By the terms presented to NPO and to the Body Republic of NPO, such is not the case. Karma may also make the argument that the reps terms would be adjusted after the 2 week war period based on NPO's ability to pay such terms. However, Karma fails to recognize that being in the superior position, espeically after 2 weeks of war, that it is far too easy to abuse the power and the opportunity presented to make it such that disbandment is preferable to being under Karma's dubious "guidance" even against the supposed "backlash" from the rest of the community. They may argue that the goal is to cripple NPO militarily, diplomatically, and economically. They have already done that. To me, it is unclear what the end goal of Karma is and it is always changing and rarely the same between any two individual members of Karma. When someone from Karma actually knows what it is, let the rest of us know, okay? The sheer inability of NPO to pay these terms within a reasonable time frame is why members of the Body Republic of NPO have agreed with the NPO government's decision to reject these terms and the Body Republic of NPO have demanded from our government that we continue to fight until Karma is willing to sit down, shut up, and put together terms that are harsh AND reasonable. I will post only the most likely case of 2k tech damages calculations as a reference below. 2k tech damage is what has been calculated to be the most likely amount of damage from 2 weeks of nuclear warfare by a number of members from both parties (it's actually a little bit more, but not enough to significantly change the results as presented below). NPO Stats (As of June 12 when analysis was done): 178 Nations Above 1k Tech Analysis assuming 2 weeks of war will yield 2k tech damage per nation, removing any nation that does not currently have at least 3k tech from consideration for paying tech reps. 30 Nations Above 3k tech 5 slots/cycle x 3 cycles/month x 50 tech/slot = 750 tech/month 750 tech/month x 30 nations = 22.5k Tech/month 300k tech/22.5k tech/month = 13.3 months BUT wait, there's MORE. Term B3 states the following: Even at 5 slots used per nation capable of paying reps in B2, in the most likely case, NPO would fall short by nearly HALF of the tech requested in the first month! In addition, this term assumes that the ENTIRE sum of reps can be paid in 6 months and yet with up to 2k tech damages at 100% efficiency, it would take a minimum of 13.3 months. This, ladies and gentlemen of the community is why it is impossible for NPO to pay such large reps and why they were rejected by both the NPO government and the Body Republic of NPO. Likely, this reasonable post by a member of NPO will be flamed, burned, and crisped just because it was presented by a member of NPO. That is to be expected. I've already burned something in the neighborhood of 50 million cash (infrastructure converted into cash and combined with warchest) and have lost virtually all of the tiny 7.2k NS that I had 2 months ago that I spent months building up to. It was worth it to defend my alliance against the tyranny of a supposed arrival of a "Golden Age" of strength, peace, and prosperity. If you managed to get all the way down to here, I thank you for your attention and willingness to read through my long post.