ThatFALGuy
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Posts posted by ThatFALGuy
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Yeah, it has been. Or did you miss where Karma alliances pressured people to declare peace with FAN despite their widespread use of this tactic, in some cases successfully forcing alliances to disband?
The reason why FAN is arguing on TPF's side here is because they do not want this precedent to be used against them. If conspiring against an alliance who FAN isn't officially at war with is a CB, then down the road there are a ton of alliances that are going to be able to declare on them.
A beautiful example of the current hypocricy at it's finest.
One could say that the precedent set with this little debacle will open the door to much more than just simple things like wanting to spy an alliance. I see it opening the door to basically anything you want.... which is awesome really.
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My point is that infiltration of an enemy alliance has never previously been considered simply an act of war. It was, in the sense that it was reason enough to go to war, but it was never acceptable as a tactic IN a war. Changing the rules to retroactively allow that kind of behavior in wartime DOES open the door for a potential paradigm shift regarding espionage in general. At least in terms of "I know I'm probably going to end up at war with them anyway, so I've got nothing to lose by doing this."
When the act was discovered is just as important as when the act took place. Even if TPF did terminate this plan before hostilities ended, and I'm not going to catch up right now on the 40 pages since I last checked to see if they did, it means little. There is no blanket "you are absolved of everything you may or may not have done to anyone who may or may not have been at war with you" clause in peace terms.
Committing an act of war against someone is a punishable act, even if there happens to be another larger war on at the time. This would all have taken place sooner, I am sure, had the information become more readily available earlier, but you go to war because of the intel you have, not the intel you might have had.
You make some valid points, even if I disagree with most of them.
What is your opinion about "thought crimes"?
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Well, yes all of those are capable.
You are asked to discuss it with the nation before declaring, and Peace Options are present.
You can, if capable, reduce a nation to zero infrastructure by continuing to attack them.
You can PZI a nation by continuing to attack them.
You can tech raid a nation by attacking them in a certain way.
You join an alliance [ooc]on your nation page[/ooc] by placing the Affiliation on your nation.
My point was not that the ability doesn't exist just because it's not mentioned [ooc:]in the game[/ooc], but that it is not normal war time operations. As many others have said here, spying and infiltration of alliances is not acceptable to many alliances. Some think it is, others do not. I brought up this point to ask if the IRON member in question had conduct such operations while fighting MHA.
And I suppose when you can't succeed, just use random insults. Say it enough and maybe it will come true.
It's one or the other, either the options specifically exist or they don't. You have contradicted yourself here. You first argued or stated that spying is not part of the game mechanics because there was not a specific option for it. Now some things are ok without the specific option, just by utilizing a backdoor? There still is no option to PZI, even though you can achieve that by keeping a person in war. There is also no option to infiltrate, though you can achieve that just by... doing it?
I personally am of the mind that spying, while !@#$%*, is a viable wartime tactic. It doesn't have to be nice, it's war. You don't have to like it, it's war.
I am insulted that you accuse me of random insults. There was nothing random about my insult, it was pretty specific and apparently dead on.
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I know you weren't addressing me but last time I was in a war (got rogued on recently), I only saw options to launch Cruise Missles, Nukes, Ground Attacks, Spy attacks against the Nation, Navy, and Aircraft. Nowhere in those options, nor in the capability of my nation or alliance, was the choice to "Create a spy alliance to infiltrate your enemy and destroy them from the inside".
Do you or TPF have some marvelous Wonder that I do not possess? And if so, was it in use when IRON was fighting MHA?
Nor is there any choice for diplomacy.
Or ZI.
Or PZI.
Or "Tech Raiding".
Or even joining an alliance.
So your point is? Is it that if it is not offered to you in game, you haven't the ability to use logical thought in making a decision on behalf of yourself?
As far as your continued ignorance with stating that ZH was only designed as an infiltration alliance, well, that's just ignorant partner.
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Athens and TPF were at war. They were on opposing sides, they were fighting each others allies and they had no love for each other. How does that not make you a form of enemy and every reasonable form of wartime opponent?
Athens was part of Karma, TPF was fighting Karma, Athens was also fighting TPF allies, to me it is barely different than fighting an alliance of 50, you can only legitimately fight 6 at one time, does that now mean that the remaining 44 were never involved, never enemies, never opponents? Is this person fighting "X" alliance or "A,B,C,D,E and F" sovereign members?
Karma fought as a whole on their needed fronts and they offered and signed peace as a whole. Athens was a part of that whole.
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or they had no viable means to force compliance on ZH (which is just as likely as what you are saying).
Meh, the actions are there to show that they really didn't care that it ended.
There have however been no indications that TPF wished to force anything upon ZH in any form.
I don't see the two points being viable with one another in any form....not to argue it to death, just my understanding here.
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Do you or anyone else have any evidence that TPF would have ended it on August 4 if ZH hadn't done so?
This point is moot as is the question and request of "proof". It ended long long ago so it would appear to me that they had no problem with it ending at ANY time, and not just this specific date you are asking about.
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ZH has itself admitted to the plot. That's what started this whole thread. Reading is indeed fundamental.
Of course they did, that still does not make right the ignorance that comes with stating that since ZH exists, it just must be. ZH would be here today (though not in this situation of course) regardless of anything to do with wartime spying.
But that's just it: ZH had given up, not TPF. It's not ZH being rolled here, as much as some people wish it were.Actually, I think both sides, as evidenced had given up on the spying idea. ZH wanted out, TPF didn't argue and never pressed it further, that to me constitutes "giving up"....thoooough.... ZH it appears is still pushing something, just not the original intents.
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Well, if that friend you told turns on you and tells you he will do anything to destroy you, it might be a good idea to let me know so I don't help him cut off your feet.
Never heard of clusters.
Ok, point taken, now where do you start to spill beans and where do you end of telling all or any of your dirty little secrets?
Myself, I would not pander to such vengence, nor would I have thought anything of this plan that never happened. I know mhawks thinking and mhawk knows mine, we have more than shared our opinions at various times
with each other. I can tell you without a doubt that he thought little of this. It was dead, it was over and it just never even ended up happening.eta.. don't recall where I picked that phrase up, but it stuck with me a long time now.
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The existence of Zero Hour is evidence that TPF pulled the trigger. They had no hesitation or qualms about doing so, nor were they the ones to cease the unfolding plot. Thus the analogy--TPF pulled the trigger, ZH jammed.
Actually, reading is fundamental. The existance of ZH was the dream and want BEFORE the war, of a couple of TPF members to have and run their own alliance.
Your trigger is brokened bud.
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If I try to shoot you and the gun jams, it's still attempted murder.
Try an analogy more on spot with this like, if I thought about shooting you, but never did, then what did I do wrong?
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After what we have been witness to the past few days in the way of logs and drama, are the bolded parts sarcasm?
No, they are not sarcasm. It was asked why TPF did not just come to Athens and tell them of this failed idea of many months ago, those bolded reasons are why.
If you and me are fighting and I tell someone that I want to kick you in the clusters, our war ends and I did NOT kick you in the clusters...does it makes sense to come back months later and tell you that I wanted to do this? Why exactly would I bother?
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I see, but not sure I fully believe this. If the founders of ZH wanted their own alliance, why would they agree to a plan that has them fold into Athens and blow it up from the inside? Sounds like a waste of the alliance they wanted. Then again, who can know what someone else is actually thinking/wanting.
Simply ask them about it.
I think Yohan would be a good place to start.
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Thank you for your answer.
I believe all of us know covert operations have been a tactic used in war and in "peace" on Planet Bob since the beginning. The tactic of bringing an alliance down from the inside is certainly not a new one, and I admit to finding some of the outrage here over this point either naive or faked.
I guess for me I don't see "covert ops" as the bottom line, or the ultimate consideration, especially since the operation got all screwed up. My only sticking point is why would TPF, on knowing what a mess was brewing behind the scenes when the doo hit the proverbial fan, would not have approached Athens last August.
Just seems like common sense damage control. That not having been done is what still has my eyebrows raised a bit in disbelief.
I trust still that this can be brought to some workable resolution, which is why I zero in on the need for a better sense of owning up to or regret from your alliance.
Would you make a point of rehashing old wounds, that never were? Would you go running to your enemy, past or present to let em know about every idea, good, bad or failed that had been brought up during a war?
The idea was off the table for various reasons, it was forgotten about, it was never enacted and nothing ever came of it. What is the point of even bothering to mention it? This same question needs posed to ZH themselves. Why bother with this so many months later if it had never even ended up happening? I could see, maybe, if they were running an actual OP now or even a month after the war ended and hostilities had ceased (which is subjective in itself, has the hostility ceased? Why do we have these threads, these wars and this chest thumping going on if it had?), Athens having a real and tangible issue with it, I know I would, but it just isn't the case here.
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TBB, can you clarify for me here. You're saying that ZH was discussed BEFORE the war. It's been stated that ZH was formed for the purpose of infiltrating Athens. Are you saying that the infiltration plans started before the war or am I missing something else?
What he is saying is that ZH was planned as an alliance before the war, for nothing other than some members that wanted to have their own alliance. During the war, they were talked to about helping out with what was then the seemingly inevitable perpetual war they were looking at for thier future, ala VietFAN style.
ZH as actually stated, was NOT formed FOR spying.
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The point I am trying to say is that the logs don't do a very good job given the ambiguity and style of the operation. My point is, and has been, that you should have just come clean about the entire thing the minute you began encountering problems with ZH - and probably before that. There would have been no war and ZH would not have had the ability to cause your alliance, if that is indeed what they are doing, this kind of harm.
(Chimay, this part is also directed at you)
Now you are asking people to weigh your word against theirs. The faith game goes for both sides but I happen to think the security of my fellow brother in arms, Athens, is more important than the word and excuses of your alliance as, in my opinion, the evidence against the charges that has been provided by you is ambiguous at best.I m sure your friends feel the same way about you too. It looks like we're gonna have to settle this Old Western style.
I am not asking you to weigh my word or anyone else' for that matter against anything. You state they used the tactic, I merely ask for at least an inkling of proof? There is plenty that they talked about it long ago, there is plenty (at least this point is in my opinion) that this is an act of vengeance on the part of ZH, but I and all else have yet to see where it was ever carried out. I could understand the sad feeling in Athens pants if they found out they were spied on, regardless if they are my treaty partners or not, they could be labled asshats at minimum. But this still boils down to one alliance talking about performoing an act upon another alliance, then never following through in any form. I call that thought crime, 6 month old thought crime. In terms of time here on Bob, we are talking years old.
I would love to provide proof that they never used it, but how do you prove something that never happened? If they did it, if they took it beyond simple talk, then there should be something more substantial than "he said, she said" shouldn't there?
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I also have to ask, when, where and why exactly is spying unorthodox, even in peace time, though especially at war time? Lord Admin has seen to it that we be free to spy by other means, or at least free in terms of personal alliances stance on the act.
I can see it being labled an act of war, when it is peace time, but how do you exactly commit an act of war, when at war? Everything you do at that point that is not solely intended to create peace only, IS an act of war. To label it an "unorthodox" act of war, 'scuse me? Maybe you have never noticed that cute little button that allows you to take nukes and cash, amongst other things, away from others in this world....
If'n you kids are all just bored and hatin' on TPF, grow some cajones, be original and just say so. Don't hide behind this silly !@#$, it is not very becoming of you though makes for good fireside giggle fodder.
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<<snip>>
TPF used unorthodox and deceptive tactics that are, in almost every case I can remember, valid causes for war. Just because you happened to be at war with Karma at the time it was drafted does not absolve you from being punished for putting the plan in motion.
<<snip>>
Define "used" please? Where I come from, the context in which you use it infers that they actually formed a plan and executed it, not that they talked about the idea and it floundered at just about light speed, never to be enacted in any way shape and or form.
Do you have any proof, be it weaksauce like the CB or real and truthful that this idea was ever carried out even in the slightest?
Considering that ZH was half of this potential issue and took it upon themselves to "come clean" about this all, they "should" in my opinion have some sort of evidence or at least truthful admittance that they carried out this act.
ZH, what say you? You want to be a group of upstanding fine folks, well...be upstanding then. Present to us the final nail and not this mediocre "TPF didn't like you six months ago when they were fighting your side" !@#$.
It still stands with all the "evidence", hearsay, etc... that TPF had an idea for inflicting damage on their enemies during a war, war ended, idea vanished like Amelia Earhart, never to be heard from again until ZH decided it was time for some sort of revenge on behalf of Athens. Athens has in my opinion become just another puppet to a jaded alliance looking out for their own interests.
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Frankly, if I were in this situation, my first act would not have been to attack TPF but to kick the living !@#$ out of ZH for using my alliance as an act of vengeance. That they allow it and consider ZH to be the class act in this cluster$%&@ speaks volumes.
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Um you and your allies have rolled for less.
Have I? Guess I missed that memo.
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Are you smoking crack?
That is rhetorical, right? XD
Defending from something that never happened, that is the new way of the world. Thought crimes, gotta love it.
Wonder if it is too far gone now to go declare war on an alliance that spied on us multiple times over many months.....almost, erm...3 years ago. Can anyone tell me if that would be a legit CB too?
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I see all this silliness is still going on. I've been reading and waiting and watching for something juicy to come along and create some excitement on Bob, and THIS is what it amounts to?
So, to you, DoWing TPF under the CB "we want war" would have been more legitimate than the CB they went with here?
Takes more balls to just state you dislike someone than it does to stretch something so weak to become so thin to "justify" your own actions.
All I see here is:
TPF: "Guys, we are getting $%&@ed royally, lets do a little !@#$@#$ back, this is war"
ZHpeeps: "Yes, I like that idea, lets do this"
Fast forward two days (two, may be an exaggeration)
TPF: "So, howzabout them Mets???"
::cricket chirp::
Fast forward to a few days ago (aka, 6 months later)
ZH: "We hate you, die scum"
TPF: "LOLWUT????"
I am trully disappointed in ZH. I know a few of their member base and can only say, wtf, over? Seriously?
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Planet Bob really has been that boring lately hasn't it?
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Wait, who are you?
I may be wrong, but I think he is the guy that decided that just because a couple people dun like him, ts not enough to go emo over....I could be wrong of course, but his record shows different.
with each other. I can tell you without a doubt that he thought little of this. It was dead, it was over and it just never even ended up happening.
The Phoenix Federation Response to war.
in Alliance Announcements (IC)
Posted
I think this is subjective. You can fracture and cause unrest to the point that it is forced to finally disband. We have seen this probably hundreds of times on Bob. It's not a "stickemup, gimme ur muney" kind of thing, but it is forced.