Waterana
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Posts posted by Waterana
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I too agree that I should be able to bring up whatever off-topic lies I want, and not have to be all hassled about it. People are so unfair here!
Save the venom for someone who cares. I already know you despise anyone with NPO in their AA. It doesn't bother me. It isn't a lie, but as you're a hater, I don't expect you to believe that.
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Echelon were the worst sort of sneering little toadies with pants way too big for themselves. They didn't get harsh terms for "just honoring a treaty" they got harsh terms because they've been the world's biggest smallest instigators for over a year. Now the chickens are come to roost.
The most hilarious thing is if they had even the slightest bit of backbone and stuck with Polar in their time of need, they'd be happy and fat now. But they were coward bullies and picked a new big brother that turned out not to be big enough.
The terms suck, but Echelon took them.
edit: And shut up about neverending war. If NPO wants the war to end they know where the door out is.
Do not tell me to shut up thank you very much. I have as much right to speak out and state my opinion on any topic on this forum as you do, or anyone else for that matter. If you don't like what I have to say, tough. I will not go into details of my statement in this thread. Have already done that in one of the 50 NPO related discussions.
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Thank you Grub. Despite the distance between the Orders, I appreciate you making that post.
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Hold on a sec, I'm rummaging through my bag for your surrender terms we drew up.
Ah, here they are:
The New Pacific Order Terms of Surrender and Peace
No.
Signed, Karma
Oh wow! You were right, we did sentence you to eternal war.
I'm not going into our terms here, this is Echelon's thread. Have explained my reasoning behind that statement in another thread. If you care enough to want to know which one, PM me and I'll link you to it.
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"Blaw blaw blaw, I'm mad we're not still driving."
I don't give a damm who's driving. Karma needs to give up any claims to being better, higher, or more moral than the Hegemony side of this war. These harsh unwarranted terms have just ground that pretense into dust.
I expected harsh terms for the NPO, and wasn't disappointed. Eternal war is harsh as you can get. However Echelon doesn't deserve this crap for nothing more than honouring a treaty and entering a war to defend an ally.
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Echelon did NOT start this war, and no amount of propaganda or dredging up past history will change that fundamental fact. All you've done is forced them to agree to a lie.
NPO made the first declaration and fired the first shot. Karma attacked us, Echelon then entered to defend us. There is no way in hell any amount of spin is going to turn that into Echelon starting the war.
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After reading those crappy disgusting 'terms', I am now fully convinced that our side can no longer be called the Hegemony, because another group has claimed the name. Though they'll have to be known as Hegemony 2 of course. That name rolls of the tongue a lot easier than Non-Karma Karmaites. Well done, you've kept the cart and just changed drivers.
In time, when those of you on that side, whether you call yourselves Karma or not, are busy trying to wipe each other out, I hope these terms, and those you you have in store for TPF which I don't expect will be any different to these, not to mention the fake terms those fighting us are trying to inflict on the NPO right now, come back to bite all of you firmly in the rear end. Now that will be Karma.
Yepper. In order to make ANY sense of the wonderful treaty chaining that always seems to happen, I personally view each war as individual wars. Thankfully, Lord Brendan posted something that should fit the bill for explaining #8 to folks who don't view things the same way I do.So using that logic, all the alliances fighting us right now, except OV, are guilty of starting their wars? Interesting.
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Didn't you kill the !@#$ out of them and then make them sign a NAP with you?
Not that I can remember, and I think I'd remember going to war with Legion's (the alliance I was with on and off for over 12 months before joining the Order) closest ally. Was in ODN for 5 days right before joining NPO. Can't remember a war with the Order then either. Do you mean the citrus war? Hell, that war is ancient history.
I would to see Vlad or Waterana speak up on this.With no offense to the friends I have over at Paficica, there is one fact that everyone has to get through their head, now.
War. Isin't. Fair.
Well, duh. Think we've figured that one out for ourselves.
Peace and surrender are controlled by the winners of the war. Pacifica has to reason or right to complain, at least not with their history of surrender terms. You would rather let their alliance crumble then surrender, which good and all. But pride is the one thing Pacifica has never been short of, but it's also your greatest downfall.Btw;
Well as Karma have thrown the surrender ball into our court and washed their hands of it, I'd say it is us in control. Yes, I know you consider impossible to honour surrender terms 'fair'. We know they are a death sentence. Eternal war was the aim from the beginning and I've yet to see a convincing statement to the contrary. Just lots of 'well you deserve it, now accept the terms'.
Karma is now targeting that, and for all we know, you guys have hidden banks amongst None AA on Red Sphere. What better way to stay rebuilt then to have banks no one knows about, not even your own members?You say that we are all afraid of Pacifica rising up again, but I think it is Pacifica that is afraid. They have finally met their match, know they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. They have been put into a situation that has never been experienced before and it terrifies them.
The old hidden bank thing. Only one response to that
.Our alliance strength has bottomed out pretty much and is starting to rise again. What do we have to be scared of? Eternal war with a foe that doesn't want peace maybe. We aren't scared, we're mostly angry at Karma and bored with this war. It is your side that constantly brings up GW1 and goes on how we need to be totally crushed/disbanded/kept under terms forever (or whatever other inventive things Karma members have come up with over the last few months) because most of you are petrified we'll rise up and kill you all. The very idea of that deserves another one of these
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I’d respond to this, but you seem to have ignored the reply to this question every single damn time people answered.
Well, there is the case of GGA and the Legion. Both of those might as well just be NPO extensions after the viceroyships and everything else. But it was your ambition which made them join you in the end, which influence them.
Do you have any idea how loud the happy cheering was within the NPO when GGA cut their last ties with us? We love Legion as friends, not puppets. Know that is hard for you to understand, but it's true. If they want to kill the treaty with us, if they were forced into signing it, if they feel in any way that being tied to us is a bad thing, don't you think the treaty between both alliances would have been canceled before the war started? Or now? We're not the big scary boogyman anymore.
With the NPO’s case in the last few years leading up to this war there seems to be two actions you could have taken if you ever got their attention: join the NPO’s empire and make a Mutual Aggression Pact with them, or eventually be stepped on for one mistake or a reason the NPO finds to kick the living hell out of your members until you surrender then become subservient to them anyway.In simple terms, you blame the officer’s choices, not those of the troops who carried out orders.
Funny, many of our members don't like ODN too much, can't remember killing them recently, or within the 2 years I've been in the Order for that matter. Can't remember us signing a treaty with them either. They seem to be alive and well today. Just one example off the top of my head.
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So are the alliance that fought right beside us in the past, including several of those at war with us now, going to pay their share of reps too, and be punished right alongside us for these 'sins'? We didn't do any of this on our own.
I love the way NPO is being blamed for anything bad that has happened on bob for the last 3 years from GW1 to someone's grandmother's cat getting hit by a car, and treated as though we did it all alone. Nobody else was at our side. No other alliances names are on any of these harsh terms surrender documents, and all our allies were braindead puppets that said and did only what we told them to [/sarcasm].
Like others have asked, I'd really like to see this list of 'crimes' we're being punished for in regards to those 'terms'.
[OOC]PS, I'm a her. Know a lot of females on the net don't care being called a him. I do. Old woman syndrome I guess[/OOC}
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When we're offered real terms instead of a loop hole ridden impossible to honour load of rubbish, I'm sure our government will seriously consider doing just that.
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No you are just deliberately misunderstanding everything I say in an attempt to look clever, or you are just that ignorant, either is possible I suppose.
In any case since you lack the ability to read for context let me point out simply the most glaring issue you have blinded your self too. After you read that, go back reread some posts and think about them (don't mind the burning smell, just don't put anything flammable near your ears) and perhaps you might come to under stand other earth shattering points like how a community is not based on its infra.
In this context Karma people interested in peace are interested in the peace terms, and perhaps, if people like you haven't managed to kill any scrap of good will the NPO might have left, working the terms to make them a bit easier for the NPO to deal with.
The opposing position would be the people who are tired of the endless !@#$%^&* and have adopted the attitude "$%&@ em, they want to be idiots, they have the terms they can take em or stew"
Both of these positions still infact want peace, the thing dividing them is if we should do the NPO any more favours over the peace process to get it, or simply tell them to take their lumps and accept what they have been given, like they have done to so many others.
We've already taken our lumps. It's called losing 20 million alliance strength, most of our allies, and all our political capital. We are defeated, beaten, have lost the war.
As I've said 100 times, fear is the sole motivating factor in these fake terms and the refusal of the alliances fighting us to show any sign they are truly interested in peace. Nothing we can say or do, outside disbandment which won't happen, will satisfy Karma and leave them feeling 'safe'.
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Sorry, that was rather poorly worded, huh? I should have said something like: "Sitting in peace mode or knocked down to 1k NS and/or ZI."
Wait... So are you saying you won't accept any terms offered now, even if they magically got lighter?
I'm not government. Accepting terms isn't up to me. I find it impossible to believe there is any way the terms would get 'lighter' considering the number of times our government has been told the current set are not negotiable.
Azhrarn, he's not NPO. Save that bile for me and other NPO members.
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I've never used the 'tears' statement. Find it stupid personally.
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How about this? We drop the two terms that offend you (war time and 1k tech limit on reps) and instead impose a viceroy, kick out your top government, and limit you to 13 nukes indefinitely? Would that make the terms more or less acceptable to you?
You don't need to. The current false terms have done their job. The eternal war is underway.
Well, then, I think we've found that solution that's equally amiable to both sides. Hell, I can't understand why you'd want to take any terms at all since sitting in peace mode is such a great place for you. Have fun with that.I've been in peace mode for a whole 10 days the entire war. Sorry, my nation isn't a bank. Good try though. You entirely missed the point of that. Not surprised. So many Karmaites never read past our AA.
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Sorry, double posted somehow.
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Please, with loopholes large enough to drive a semi-trailer through, plus strict restrictions on who can pay reps despite time requirements and beaten down banks, it has been pointed out ad-nausem to you lot that we wouldn't be able to pay the required amount in the required time. Of course, the terms are a farce anyway, so it isn't like it matters. You lot get your eternal war with our without us accepting it.
If Karma truly want an end to this war, and the opportunity to lord it over a subjugated NPO, then it is up to you lot to find a way to do it. Not ours. Like you keep trying to tell us, you're in control, right?
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Slow growth and development would be fine, in fact a vast improvement on the certain resumption of war the offered terms would result in.
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Actually there are some things you could say, but alas, all of them involve you swallowing your pride, which is why nobody has done it yet.
You could show some spec of understanding of the harm your actions have caused over the years.
You could drop the 'we are better than you' attitude.
You could stop trying to play the wronged party card.
You could stop pushing crap, you are only alienating any possible support you could have. Your bogus stats and PR stunts are directly responsible for making some alliances reconsider the wisdom of giving you peace. Do you grasp the depth of your error? People who used to be in favour of peace have been driven away from that position by the sheer amount of crap you are pushing. All you are doing is convincing people you've learned nothing for this entire ordeal.
You've given us peace? When? All I've seen is offered terms that were only offered so we'd reject them and you could continue to wage eternal war against us. Realised today something important though, will go into that in a bit.
Spouting crap like this is exactly the point I was going for above. At the start of this we were looking for peace, the worst sentiment from us was wanting to hurt you but a determination not to be dicks about it like you always were.Now the prevailing attitude is "$%&@ em, if they want to let their pride dig a grave for em, let em." Nobody on Karma's side is going to go to bat for you, no one over here is saying "gee we should be nicer to them", you will not get a last second reprieve.
If you expect an exit from this war, it is your actions and your actions alone that will bring it about. We have no overriding desire to see you wiped out, but we also have no pressing desire to go out of our way to be nice to you, understand this isn't blood lust its apathy.
You can take the terms, or slowly bleed to death under our tanks. We don't give a !@#$. Pick one, but its all on you for which one you pick. No spin, no excuses, you live or die by your own words and deeds.
Karma never intended to give us peace right from the word go. The over riding thing I've seen from many of you is fear. Pure fear. Karma is way too afraid we'll rebuild and come looking for payback to ever consider giving us any way out of this. Any of you stating that all we have to do is be humble little penitents, and you might let us live if you're feeling generous enough are spouting rubbish. We know there is no way the alliances fighting us will stop. Fear, fear Fear.
That's ok though. By giving us terms you all knew in advance we'd say no to, you've fallen into the same trap we did with FAN. Another thing Karma keep reminding us of is you've won the war. Yes, we know that and have admitted defeat both officially and unofficially.
You also keep telling us you are in control and we have no say in anything, wrong. By giving us those joke terms, and putting the onus on us to accept or deny them, plus continuing to play the 'benevolent victor' card, you also gave us the drivers seat and the keys. You aren't in control anymore, we are. It is our decisions that will determine how the war plays out from now, not yours. We did the same thing with FAN. For all our bluster against them, with the exception of hitting any of them to come out of peace mode, we had no control over them or that war. They had the power and played out the war to suit themselves. You've done the same with us. Thanks.
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Really no use in arguing this. As certain NPO members have stated, the NPO ceasing to exist and certain members never playing CN again are the only way some of these people will ever get over their hurt feelings over things that happened years ago and even then some people will never get over them.
People act like no NPO action in their alliance history was ever justified or correct. They never had a valid CB in their entire existance.
Many even bring up things that NPO had little or nothing to do with and blame NPO anyway.
Many of the people who are blaming NPO now were marching right along side NPO while the actions that have them mad are occuring.
The 1000 nations oppressing 29000 nations argument being played out over and over.
But it becomes more clear every day that all Pacifica has to do is hold on for a little while longer. Bob is still pressure packed and another major war looms closer every day. See the NSO/Neutrals incident that unfolded in the past 24 hours for how quickly things can flare up.
Had that escalated a bit more several major blocs would have been in the fray if Gram was going to support the color friendly neutrals.
Finally, it's been pointed out many many times that no one can force an alliance to disband. Atlantis, an example used a page or two ago, chose to give up their alliance and it was without a shot being fired. In their disbandment notice one of their own said they disbanded due to internal problems.
This is a quote from an Atlantean in that thread, he makes several other posts about how this was a majorly internal issue in the thead.
But yeah, the NPO forced Atlantis to disband. Atlantis wasn't in any way responsible for their own demise, they didn't do it because of any problems they were having internally nor did they choose to disband to avoid pixel loss from a potential war with tC.
It was simply Pacifica threatening to use their mighty disbandment nukes that wipe away your AA tag permanently as they had so many times in the past. I was shocked that Admin took them from Pacifica before this war started.
Thank you Vol Navy. I appreciate it that you gave me the Atlantis information I was asking for, but was ignored by those Karmaites I asked in favour of more accusations and bile. Namely the date this incident happened. Now I have a starting point to do some forum searches, both here and on our own boards and can learn more of this supposed 'sin'.
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Atlantis was a 500 member strong, sanctioned alliance on the White team. And you've barely heard of them? Atlantis had MDPs with both the VE and GR, both of which alliances are at war with you right now. Please tell me you've heard of the VE and GR.
And your "question" has been repeatedly answered. You just refuse to accept it. Not that you're really asking a question anyway. What you're actually doing is just repeating an accusation over and over again for propaganda value.
If you look at my join date for this forum compared to my post count, you'll notice that I'm not exactly one of the most' out and about' members. In fact, I've posted more on this forum in the last couple of days than the last 12 months. So, no, sorry, I know little about Atlantis. My focus is usually internal to my alliance and its allies, and Atlantis was never one of them. I'm not a diplomat, not government, and don't sit in tons of other alliance's IRC rooms or join their forums.
Yes, I know of the other two alliances. They are part of the Karma group who are waging eternal war against us now. We fought GR sometime in the past, it has ex NAAC members in it, don't know how many, and it's on blue. I watched the VE war and their disbandment from Legion, was upset by it and thought the whole war stupid and un-necessary, then cheered when they reformed and we signed a treaty with them. Was happy to see them back then, and that was really dumb of me considering what they're doing now.
I asked a question, which none of you are willing to answer. If Karma does want an end to this war, and I am totally wrong, then surely an agreement is possible where we get to survive, and you lot get this stupid fear of us in the future allayed. The current terms can never be accepted, all of you must realise that by now
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You're a shining example of what it means to be a Pacifican. You put words into my mouth that I never stated, never even implied, and then can't even be bothered to learn about, or even be expected to know about, an alliance of several hundred members that you carelessly destroyed.
And do you actually believe that you're helping matters by making these types of posts?
I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked a question, which you didn't answer.
I'd barely heard of Atlantis. Why would I be expected to know anything about them until you accused us of being responsible for their demise? I've seen accusations that we've destroyed this and that alliance, but not this one until your posts today. Perhaps if you'd answered that question, I'd have a starting point to begin looking.
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I just want to say one thing here:
How do you think they felt when Pacifica did it to them?
Here's a hint:
The same way. Yet Pacifica never faltered from the line of action you're now angry over.
I'll use a favorite NPO hater answer to your post. Stockholm syndrome?
You only left us yesterday and the venom is spewing out already.
Oh, the irony of someone from the NPO talking about "irrational fear." Because of course it was perfectly rational fear that caused you to destroy Atlantis. It was perfectly rational fear that caused you to continually war each and every alliance that allowed you to live after GWI, until you had destroyed or taken control of, each and every one.Karma of course is being irrational to ignore the entire history of your alliance.
So, is that an admission that I'm right in my beliefs that eternal war was the goal from the start, the terms are a lie, and were written to be rejected so the war could continue?
PS, I don't know zip about Atlantis. Certainly don't remember going to war with them. When exactly were we supposed to have done this?
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The terms are evidence enough. The fact the alliances at war with us refuse to negotiate with our government is evidence enough. The continuous bluster from Karma and its supporters that 'NPO deserves these terms and can afford it' when we've shown over and over they're impossible for us to honour within the restrictions (not pay, as I've said before) is evidence enough. If you want proof so badly, go read any recent thread with NPO in the title. Its all there, over and over. I don't have to prove anything to you. The hate from most of you for anyone with NPO in their AA is so intense I strongly suspect you'd not believe anything I said anyway.
You go on that I'm not backing up my opinions, well that is because it is opinion. I firmly believe everything I've typed. The evidence for it is all around me. Karma can't be believed and can't be trusted. They won't stop this war because of fear. The irrational fear we'll 'come get em' at some point in the future.
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Imperial Decree - New Polar Order
in Alliance Announcements (IC)
Posted
You wanted peace?
We don't have the monopoly on arrogance. Plenty on your side are displaying a ton of it too. Including in this thread.
I've had a chat with a Spartan in query. He was pretty honest in why the alliances fighting us want us to surrender so badly, and accept the current terms as written. It has nothing to do with all the bluster about past crimes, or any of that rubbish being used as propaganda. It does have a lot to do with what I've been saying all along, fear. You do want us destroyed, and expect us to sign off on those terms, then lie down and let you get on with it. Dream on.
Right now we're still a free alliance making our own decisions. Our alliance strength has bottomed out and has begun to rise again (might explain some of the renewed pressure on us to surrender) and morale within the NPO is still very high. We've had some leave, true, but they aren't being missed. Let me explain something. For an alliance to accept surrender terms, those terms have to be a better option for the defeated alliance than continuing to fight. The terms you've offered us are much worse for us than continuing to fight, so we continue to fight.
We have been thoroughly militarily defeated. Why the hell would we accept terms that's main clause result in us losing more alliance strength? No alliance with any sense of duty towards its members would accept such a thing. Would you?
Surrender is supposed to end a war, not require the defeated alliance to remove their mouth guard so the enemy can get a few more punches in and remove some teeth. I read somewhere that our banks would be expected to disarm first as per the surrender terms, and not be allowed to defend themselves in any way during this 2 weeks war as per the surrender terms. Is this true?