[Declaration of Solidarity]

Fear? What fear?

This is hilarious, not scary.

[Statement of Friendship]

First and most important, Invicta.

Second, I want to comment on this 'change' and 'acting humble' rubbish I've been reading in this thread. I'll use myself. Pre this war, concerning the 18 alliance that fought and defeated NPO, I was barely aware of half of them (GOD, The International, RnR to name a few), indifferent towards others (Athens for one), and actually liked a couple (VE and =LOST=). Now, thanks only to this war, and not just the smashing of our alliance and harsh reps but also the attitude from members of those alliances, and constant spewing forth of venom and bile aimed at us and our allies, treatment of allies like Echelon, not to mention levels of arrogance that puts what we supposedly display to shame, both during the war and after, I have fostered a healthy anger and hate towards all of them. I sincerely hope to see each and every one of them crushed over the next 12 to 24 months. Not necessarily at our hands either.

That attitude wasn't born out of arrogance, I used to be one of the mildest tempered forgiving people in the game, but that has changed big time, thanks only to the attitudes and actions of karma members. I don't know if any other NPO members have gone down the same road as I have, but if any of you expect me in sackcloth and ashes begging for forgiveness, forget it. It ain't gonna happen. I despise you all to much to even consider it (you as in alliances, not individuals).

Maybe when the arrogance and hate on your side fades, mine will too. Who knows. Won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen, as the attitudes displayed from some of you in this thread, a thread simply reaffirming a close friendship between two allies that had their treaty cancelled by force by outsiders, has shown me no matter what happens, no matter what we do, no matter how hard we try, there will always be those that will never let go of their hatred. So give me one good reason why I should, and please don't mention being humble, it will just make me laugh again.

[TPF's Response to Terms Offered]

Because someone from an alliance with a lot of nukes decided to intervene on NPO's behalf. I wouldn't be so sure of that happening for TPF; the reps on the table aren't outrageous, and there's no OWF pity-party for TPF.

Which alliance was that. Not beings snide here, this is the first I've heard of anyone standing up for us, and I'd like to know who it was.

Tyga, please change the record. That one you're playing has been worn out by a lot of karma people, and got boring in our threads, without replaying it in TPF's as well. We, as in all core Q alliances, have had our 'crimes' thrown at us from day 1. This war was the 'punishment' for it apparently. Though from what I've seen both the war itself and the reps have much more to do with hate than justice. The reps PC expects from TPF just strengthen that.

Edited to correct spelling of someone's name.

[TPF's Response to Terms Offered]

Thank you Captain Obvious.

Maybe if it gets said often enough, the drones on your side of the fence may actually let it sink into their brains, but I won't hold my breath.

Yet your alliance and allies happily clawed reps out of smaller alliances as badly beaten down who had committed no crimes at all. I find it humourous everytime a Pacifican tries to play this card.

[sarcasm]Love how every war we fought was against innocent little lambs who had never done a thing to hurt us. No CB from Q or 1V was ever valid.[/sarcasm]

From what I've read in this thread, PC, who want the lions share of these reps, bandwagoned against TPF out of pure hate and a want for vengeance. If that reason is valid for them to attempt to extort the major portion of reps from TPF, then what reps did we ever demand, or TPF for that matter as this is about them, were so much worse?

Then they are resigning themselves to a continued war over pride. Their choice.

Funny, NPO were told that too. Over and over again. We're at peace now though, wonder why?

[TPF's Response to Terms Offered]

All this 'dictating terms' talk makes me laugh. Alliances that won a war can demand whatever terms they like. That is an indisputable fact. The alliance on the receiving end can also reject those terms for whatever reasons they like. That is an indisputable fact too. If TPF don't want to hand over most of what little they have left to the likes of PC, then they have every right to say no. You can attempt to shove them down mhawk's throat much as you like, but unless he feels right about accepting the terms for his alliance, it won't happen. Didn't most of this get argued in the umpteen NPO terms threads over the first set offered us? Seems it still hasn't sunk in with a lot of you.

For those of you who feel harsh terms are necessary for 'punishment', that has already happened. Take a close look at the state TPF is in right now. Isn't that punishment enough for any past 'crimes'? All you are doing, and I include all the alliances that have dished out harsh terms to Echelon, NPO, and the TPF attempt, are doing is fostering a growing hatred of and anger towards your alliances from members of those defeated alliances. Even moderates such as myself. Is that what karma set out to achieve? If so, congratulations, you did it.

I want to see TPF at peace. They have fought hard and my admiration for their support and tenacity is sky high. However, for that to happen, seems PC need to reign in their greed. Unless that happens, I can't see why TPF should accept terms they feel are unacceptable.

[Instrument of Surrender for the New Pacific Order]

Oh for pete's sake, can the bickering end already. Our government accepted these terms, and while no I don't like all of them especially the tech reps restrictions that are simply the war phase 2, surprise surprise, we've agreed to them and will honour them. The only worry I have is the alliances that were fighting us cooking up an excuse to redeclare on NPO any time they like, and no, I don't trust any of them. Will be an interesting 6 months.

[Question for those of you who have had a Viceroy]

I asked "what can the Legion do to survive this?" and got those terms. It appears these terms where offered to Pezstar during an earlier crisis but were turned down, thinking that we would not accept them (and probably rightly at that time, when I accepted them we were in a far more perilous place).

Ok, thanks for the answer.

[Question for those of you who have had a Viceroy]

No, I'm telling him to drop when it's not the topic of the thread.

Just for the record, I'm a her.

That was going to be my one and only post in this thread, and was posted to put an NPO voice behind a no response to any future suggestions of a viceroy for us.

As the NPO is constantly told by karma, the victor gets to decide what peace terms are offered. As karma are constantly told by the NPO, the defeated alliance gets to decide to accept said terms. Viceroys were accepted by defeated alliances in times past as a part of their surrender. They didn't have to accept it, but they chose to. Whether it ended up working out good or bad, it was their decision.

For Legion members, I have a question. Honestly don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard a rumour that some of you came to the NPO and asked for the viceroy during the purplegate debacle, and that it wasn't forced on you. Is that true?

[Lonely...so lonely. :(]

This is sad. 18 alliances on us and Bilrow has to beg for a little ole dance. Shame on you for doing that to him karma .

[Question for those of you who have had a Viceroy]

No it isn't, but I'm not surprised the subject is being raised. If our karma foes even suggested a viceroy for the NPO, no we wouldn't disband. We'd just laugh and tell them to get lost. So it would be a total waste of their time and energy trying.

[Current NPO War Status?]

A lot of the new NPO members I’ve fought so far have said very different things, many were utterly unaware of the Karma War and several knew nothing about the NPO's long fanatical history of backstabs and curb stomps.

As for regaining alliance strength, you do realize that every single point of strength you gain in one day via aid and support tends to be gone the next day, so at best you're postponing your fall.

We've already fallen. So many of you seem to forget that and still act as if we're 25 million AS. A very slow trickle of lost AS or a massive sudden unstoppable downward plummet followed by a resumption of the war via those impossible terms, hmmm, wonder which is the better option?

[Current NPO War Status?]

We know quite well nobody cares if the NPO disappears, which is why we're ensuring it doesn't happen by refusing to accept terms designed to destroy us. We are not 'dissolving'. Did you read where I said we gain AS some days? Our recruitment policies haven't changed since the start of the war and there is nothing more frantic about it now than there was 4 months ago. All applicants know we're at war because we tell them. It is then their choice to continue with their application or walk away.

[Current NPO War Status?]

That's laughable. You ARE doing it for them. Slow dissolution. The alternative is to take a punch in the nose and pay reparations far lesser in value than the losses eternal peace mode incurs. Then recover rather than remain a laughing stock dissolving away exactly as they want you to.

Punch in the nose? You really have no idea what you're talking about. If it was that easy, we'd be at peace right now. The war is in a stalemate at the moment. NPO actually gains some AS some days. Most of our remaining strength is locked away where our foes can't get their dirty mitts on it. There really is nothing much more karma can do to hurt us. Our alliance can survive for a long time as we are now, which is why it is a better option than taking those terms which, for your information, weren't written to do us any favours. Quite the opposite.

Beat down our disarmed banks who can't retaliate at all due to other terms, then demand huge reps from those beaten down banks under strict restrictions on who can pay them, and amount requirements per month. We wouldn't be able to make the repayments, so a resumption of war would be inevitable. Only that resumption would be against a disarmed alliance. Accepting those terms is a much worse option for our alliance than continuing to fight.

[Current NPO War Status?]

The problem is the NPO is getting in the way of our karma foes destroying our alliance by refusing to accept terms designed to do just that. How dare we want to survive.

As I've said before, if our enemies want our alliance exterminated they'll have to do the dirty work themselves. We aren't going to do it for them by accepting those terms and handing over what little strength we have left for them to wipe out.

[An Announcement from the Orange Defense Network]

All the best Legion. Stay strong

[Poll: Recruiting from other alliances]

How about not being used as cannon fodder in a war the NPO has ultimately brought upon itself had has lost, and being part of an alliance willing to enjoy events on Bob than 'win' every war/contest/power struggle/debate they stumble across. Or being part of an alliance not run by backstabbers.

Do those sound like good reasons to join a non cow hailing alliance?

Sorry, but the guy's just come in here and posted something utterly irrelevant in an attempt to promote a failing power, can you blame me for being blunt and honest here.

Actually, yes, we can blame you. gateborg's post was totally relevent, on topic and related to this thread. Your post was a cheap opportunity to push a political agenda not related to this thread or it's topic. Do you really need to bash the NPO in every thread on this forum. Aren't there already enough devoted to that purpose you can use?

Anyway, I don't believe trying to recruit people who have already chosen an alliance is right. Even those in neutral alliances have made their choice. However, in these days of change who knows if that old 'rule' is set for chop as well if enough alliances start doing it.

[I have a dream.]

Not at this point.. but public opinion is very important, and I don't see Karma's stock going up in the eyes of the non-fanboys. Post-war, I fully expect NPO (and TPF) to have a lot of support among those who were not dogmatic against them due to the ridiculous behavior of Karma.

The line between supporting us and opposing one term of surrender being pushed at us has become blurred. Some karma people who are beginning to accuse anyone outside our alliance of being a sympathiser if they speak up against that term has a large part in that I feel.

At the beginning of the war, most of those who fought on the karma side were pushing an agenda of new ideals they expected to see become a normal part of CN once the NPO and hegemony were gone. Many of them still believe in those ideals, and their opposition to the hard line and harsh terms we're being offered has nothing to do with us.

People need to remember feelings about us from the vast majority haven't changed, it is the feelings about how far the alliances against us have moved away from what karma stood for at the beginning of the war that has a rising number of them speaking up.

[I have a dream.]

The NPO doesn't get to decide when this war is over. Neither do they get to decide which terms they deserve. But if they'd prefer eternal war, that's fine by me. If they still believe they have the right to dictate affairs to the rest of Planet Bob, even in defeat, then they obviously haven't been at war long enough.

If we don't get to decide when the war is over, why are we constantly being blamed for it continuing?

[An Open Letter to the NPO]

Oh my, I'm full of fear! Yes Ma'am, I am.

...

No, not really.

And you do understand that this world is meant to be competitive? To go to war with each other?

The only thing that kept people from competing was a stagnant Hegemonic system, in which only the top dog had the privilege of going to war and getting away with everything.

I consider the defeat of the Hegemonic structure one of the most important achievements of this war.

The very reason you think we're feared is because you think we'll establish the same structure as former Hegemony did. And ofcourse, that would be a Hegemony in which for once, the NPO wouldn't have the upper hand. That terrifies you, doesn't it?

But I can assure you, this isn't going to happen. In fact, I don't want it to happen.

No, it's because how many people from the alliances fighting us have been on this forum saying so. Nothing more or less. We are defeated and the hegemony is gone, so if that is all your side wanted, why such a harsh term as more war after peace? Why not just end it now with terms that give you the reps ect your side want, but let us survive as a viable alliance? Surely you can see why we believe what we do about the fear and eternal war. The terms point straight to that.

[An Open Letter to the NPO]

Your alliance had around 90 score at the start of this war, you now have around 20.

Need I say more?

Yes, because I can't figure out how showing how much strength we've lost in this war and how far our alliance has fallen backs up your argument. Unless of course, you're simply backing up my assertion that for you losing so much already isn't enough and you're determined to destroy what little is left.

I admitted your one offensive of the war had an effect of .2, however to be realistic it did not do much beyond that, check back on the sanction race thread if you need proof. Also, in our fully engaged war on your alliance and defensively against MCXA as well, we only managed to loose 9 (non inflated) score, so why would you consider us sufficiently "beat down", as you put it, and move on to Rok? You should have stuck around longer, it would have been fun.

Nice to know our nukes don't do barely any damage. You were well out of sanction. Why waste more resources on VE, when we had such a smorgasbord of enemies to choose from who had more tech and money.

Right now, your speaking to me, and I am telling you that while many people express a fear of you coming back to "ruin the game" or whatnot; I do not and I will make no decisions based on the presumed fears of others. More then that, I am quite confidant my peers don't fear you as well. Terms will not be based on a hypothetical fear, they will be based on your alliance and this war alone.

Could have fooled me. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't trust any of you or believe a word any of you say. Everything on this forum has shown the terms are out of fear, a conversation in IRC query with a Spartan confirmed it is fear. You don't agree, well, you're the first and only person to say that.

I have not seen you at negotiations, nor have I seen you in any logs of communications between those on our front and those in Pacifica, so are you absolutely, 100%, without question, sure of that?

Oh, for the record I was not here for GW1, 2, or 3, and your posts contradict your comment on arrogance.

I'm not involved in the negotiations, and aren't in NPO government, but I'm sure you already know that. The fact our enemies are dragging this war out by insisting on keeping a term we will never accept, and which they know damm well we'll never accept, and which I'm damm sure they knew writing up the terms we'd never accept, tells me yes, the aim of this is eternal war.

If you reread what I said on arrogance and pride, I said Pacifica didn't have the monopoly on it. That means we aren't the only ones who display it.

[An Open Letter to the NPO]

90% of the effort in this war was focused upon keeping nations from hitting peace mode. I mean sure, you were planning ahead for a loss in a way, but your nations, on the whole, jumping every chance they got is not a matter that can be disputed.

Well, you did a lousy job of keeping nations from hitting peace, and now expect us to hand them over and allow you to beat down not only our banks but those you stuffed up staggers on. Dream on. You aren't getting them.

lol

First of all, no nations cycle in and out of peace mode in any range that matters, sorry. Your talking one of the people who have been literally keeping tract of peace mode nations and coordinating attacks on those in war mode sense the first night, so believe you me that I know exactly what the facts are here. And no, I don't remember a blitz, I remember a few handful's of nations causing us to loose .2ish score then getting systematically stomped the following days and we lost our sanction a week later to TDO's growth...

Not anymore they aren't, because the majority in peace mode now are banks and supposed to be there. You've knocked the others down. I was waiting for the 'it wasn't you, it was *insert excuse here* in a lame attempt to not give us credit for VE's fall out of sanction. RoK did the same. Give it up. We, the entire alliance, concentrated attacks on VE and once you were beaten down enough, we moved onto RoK. I'm not going to say nothing else had an effect, but to try to state our attack focus on each of one you had no effect just makes you look silly.

The term was included because we wanted to actully fight this war and finish it. It is as simple as that and with nothing else behind it. Also, it was more the multitude at which you all droped into peace more then stagger f'ups, we actully thoguht you were going to fight this war untill we realized that you all were not conducting any offensive whatsoever and dropping into peace mode insted. Furthermore, please stop implying that our aim is to get you to disband because we are scared of you attacking us in the future. It may come as a shock, but I cant really say anyone has an overwhelming fear of Pacifica at this point in time, and we have stated time and time again that disbandment is not a goal nor is eternal war. Get off it. As for your bankers, are you implying you have 235 of them? Come on now. For the record though, I'm not fixated on peace mode nations...this thread is.

It's safe to say that our pride is fine and not a factor here, can you say the same?

We have fought the war. Are still fighting it in fact. Our massive AS loss and ruined now small ex large nations are proof of that. Just because your blood lust and pride won't be saited until you've ZIed the entire alliance doesn't mean we haven't fought the war. Don't know where you've been, but the main reason we've been hearing all over these forums for the extra war is fear. If we aren't totally crushed, we'll rebuild and 'come kill you all' like some demented magic phoenix. Of course the alliances against us want us gone. It is they only way you'll ever feel safe and be able to put the incontinence pads away.

Pacifica doesn't have a monopoly on pride, or arrogance for that matter. The fact our opponents refuse to give an inch on the terms, despite constantly bleating about how much they want peace, shows that in spades.

[An Open Letter to the NPO]

Look above my post you quoted...

My response to you was a clear question, as your original comment made absolutely no sense at all.

Lets review:

1. I asserted that the war term would not have been necessary if your alliance did not run from the fight in the first place.

What the hell are you talking about? 20 million AS, 3/4 of our original total strength gone, plus most of our nations in ruins isn't running from the fight. I can't believe you actually said something so silly.

2. You made a sarcastic comment, and then continued on to say that my take on the matter was brought on by an agenda (followed by a "rollseyes" smiley face).

Not aimed at me so will ignore it.

3. I asked you what could an agenda possibly have to do with the fact that your alliance started jumping into peace mode from day one and continued to do so for over a month. This is a fair question, as your response to my original post made no sense.

At the start of the war our banks and highest battalion fighters were ordered into peace mode. The first group because it is their job to stay out of the fighting, trying to call them cowards falls on deaf ears in Pacifica. We know better. The highest battalion were ordered in as a tactical measure. I'm sure VE remembers the blitz on them a few weeks into the war that knocked them out of sanction? Since that time, nations cycle in and out of peace mode to recover from anarchy, restock, and rearm. There are a very small number who have remained there in spite of being ordered out. That is an internal matter, and we will deal with it ourselves. I went into peace mode within the first month, and was out 5 days later. Have had one other 5 day stint in it since. Does that make me hiding, running, or a coward too?

4. You accuse me of "taunting" and proclaim yourself the rhetorical victor.

....

Care to rethink your last response?

Not aimed at me so will ignore it.

You seem fixated on our peace mode nations. Why? Because you know our opponents can't take us out of sanction without hitting them? Because you know you can't cripple our alliance sufficiently to spur on disbandment without hitting them? Because you're so damm scared we'll rebuild and 'come get you' without hitting them? Because you stuffed up so many staggers allowing our nations to get into peace mode and can't regain that lost pride without hitting them? You're not getting our banks. You've been told over and over again your not getting our banks. We protect our members as best we can, and that doesn't include handing them over to any of you.

[An Open Letter to the NPO]

I'll leave the calculations to those who have a head for numbers. I don't, but do trust Cortath and other members of our alliance who do. They've assured us the reps are not payable, within the amount required per month demand and after our banks have been attacked. It is simply a recipe for a resumption of the war, and no doubt with us again being painted the villains for breaking terms.

If the reps really were that easy to pay off under the rest of the restrictions, then the terms wouldn't have been written as they are. Our opponents want us dead, they've wanted us dead from the beginning of the war. This is no longer a war of payback/karma, it's a war of extinction. The other side can end this war any day they choose. As they keep reminding us, they won the war, they hold the power, they make all the decisions. Only things they can't do is force our banks out of peace (that pre-terms debacle didn't exactly work for them) or force us to accept these terms. People not involved with the war and even some within those alliances that fought on the karma side are beginning to see through the charade now, even though their feeling about the NPO itself haven't changed.

The biggest charade is they can't force us to destroy ourselves by handing our own members over to them because they can't hurt them any other way. We've lost almost everything and they still want more. Well, we've said no to that. We won't hand our banks over for execution. They're OUR people and deserve our full protection, not a flock of sacrificial lambs.

[An Open Letter to the NPO]

Those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. It will take a majority of your slots but the reps are payable. Cortath has never handled war rebuilding and reps, I have. Rebuilding and reps motivate people a lot more than peace time does to participate and necessity is the mother of invention. MK's reps and rebuilding system came out of necessity, we weren't doing anything on that scale beforehand.

Internal aid deals can be done, it just can't exceed the number of slots devoted to reps. There's still a lot of potential there.

Nor does rebuilding have everything to do with aid slots. Small nations may grow less without aid, but they'll still grow because they can devote their collections to buying infra. Something that goes relatively quickly when you have lots of economic wonders and improvements. Even banks should have left over money with which to grow as 18mill/300 tech every cycle does not take up all of a mid sized nation's (3-5K infra) collections.

We aren't MK and the situations are different. You weren't at war for 3 months (and counting) so the damage wasn't as severe to start with. You weren't expected to accept more war as a part of peace. I can't remember MK's terms from that war execpt the 10k tech and nuke thing that others love throwing in our faces, so don't want to make mistakes. Will leave it here.

[An Open Letter to the NPO]

Its funny to see NPO refusing terms out of sake of pride. After all, they only lost one other war (that they refuse to admit). I do find it hilarious to hold a original 900 member player base in hostage for the sake of their record. Ha.

Wow, do you have some catching up to do. We got past the 'pride' thing ages ago. I'll help. All members of the NPO have seen these terms, they are posted on our forum. The BR of the NPO back our leaders 100% in saying hell no to these terms.