NPO: Better With or Without?

[TehChron]

If you would so kindly look at which I first pointed towards the development of behavior in another "world" before Pacifica's existence there, I think that would fit the definition of history, no?

As you will also notice, my hypothesis clearly described a situation in which a force would "eventually" arise to take NPO's place, after the establishment of LUE. Perhaps if you would read my posts rather than scan through them and then post nonsense not even in context of whatever of mine you quote you would make yourself look less like someone lurking for something to defame (and you're quite poor at it). Looks like you need to try harder next time. But keep going by all means, your struggle to find valid attacks is quite amusing if nothing else.

Oh?

"I don't think any major alliance allows tech raiding anymore (correct me if I'm wrong)."

"I base this theory on this observation:

OOC: Outside of CN, nation rulers are still civilized human beings within relatively similar communities in terms of basic conduct and rules. I doubt there are many, if any, people who can truly create and act in a different character from theirs in RL."

"I put forth the notion based on natural tendencies exhibited by everyone, whether you like it or not. Maybe the barbarity would have taken over, maybe not. You cannot put forth an absolute statement unless you have a time machine and went back to prevent NPO from ever being created in order to see what happens"

"It's not like devotion to an alliance or off-site forums are only inherent to NPO. Just because NPO did it first here doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened eventually. Many other alliances also came from off-boards eventually and some had pretty good orginization from the get-go without even knowing the existence of NPO."

"Time does wonders. You are assuming LUE would have kept an iron grip and set the tone of Bob for an indefinite amount of time in the absence of NPO. Who is to say another off-board invasion (there are plenty of other boards) wouldn't have happened and established a similar set of order as we have today? Once again, you assume because NPO did it first, it was the only one capable of doing so. Although, I'll say that spying may have been viewed differently but it's still condoned by more people than you think.

What the hell did spying have to do with anything, by the way? And all my posts said no such thing about LUE having some kind of "Iron Grip"

.

If we had not, there would have been no one to do so by the time LUE arrived, and by then, the gross-happy folks wouldn't have been needed to be kept reined in in fear of pissing off Pacifica and instigating a war before they were ready. The forums would have been shut down due to invisionfree violations, and the healthy forum conversations you and I are having now would never have happened.

Focusing on something that is clearly off-topic is an indication of your own failure.

"My point is that someone else could have also done it if NPO never existed. My point is (directed towards who I originally quoted but you may have lost sight of) someone could have seen what LUE was doing and come in after wards, pulling an NPO of sorts. You speak in absolutes as if there were no other possible outcomes in lieu of NPO whereas I'm just putting forth other possible happenings. I'm not even arguing with you about the history of events"

"Once again, to reiterate for the 2nd time, I'm not talking about the other alliances at the time doing what NPO did. I'm talking about a hypothetical alliance who would have basically filled the spot NPO had after the situation you put forth.

"Some unknown individual may have arrived and changed everything. WE MAY NEVER KNOW!?!?"

"You realize you were the one replying to me at first right? I was answering a hypothetical scenario an NPO member put forth. You're the one stupid enough, looking around for arguments, to try to make one out of my posts which has nothing to do with you."

"I've pointed out historic evidence, something you grip dearly to, explaining that NPO started in a "world" generally like ours but that she didn't establish such culture there."

"2. My point: Evidence points towards the probability that a similar culture to ours would have eventually developed in CN with or without NPO. How long it would have taken is relevant to NPO."

And that's all the "evidence" you cite in the last page.

Tell me...What of any of that is historical evidence of anything save that you don't know what the hell you're talking about?

[John Michaels]

The impact the NPO has had on the politics of this game are undeniable in pretty much every major world affair that has taken place since its existence. Much of the current conduct of alliances in this game have been influenced to one degree or another by the Order. The question that lies before us is whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. While there have been some positive changes made by the Order, which will be laid out, there have also been many negative ones, which we should also endeavor to cover.

Firstly, the good. Claims that without the NPO tech raiding would be the norm is hyperbole. Memory fails me but plenty of alliances, GPA in particular, were opposed to tech raiding throughout their existence. Once again if memory serves, GATO was pretty much the only major alliance that allowed it. Furthermore, it is important to note that many of NPO's allies, such as \m/ and I believe GOONS were amongst the most vociferous practitioners of tech raiding. Nonetheless, The NPO did play a role as an adamant opponent. They have also established the precedent of following treaties to the letter (if not necessarily the spirit) and that espionage was an offense that would cause war.

That said, the number of nations in this game has stagnated since the Third Great War, and no doubt in my mind it is because the political aspect of the game also stagnated, which was directly relatable to the Initiative, and as the dominant political force of that group, the NPO deserves the lion's share of blame. Many of the alliances who were part of the rich tradition of politics in this game were forced out in the Third Great War and the ensuing conflicts the New Pacific Order waged against any prospective enemies. They surrounded themselves with a cadre of bullying sycophants who attacked anyone they didn't like and forced any major alliance that wanted to survive to bind itself to the NPO, and even then safety was not assured.

They have arrogantly strode the world and forced those they dislike to either surrender or face annihilation. The last two years have been a cavalcade of victims of the Order's paranoia, its insatiable desire for submittance, for conformity, that has stunted the growth of this community as a whole. They eliminated anyone who espoused views distasteful to the alliance and have lowered the level of discourse to an endless stream of stupid, thoughtless hails, the parroting of empty "Francoist" ideology, which is frankly nothing more than a load of Sophist !@#$%^&*. A few positive accomplishments sandwiched between the bloated corruption and petty vendettas of a selfish elite who have made the excitement of this game available to only the alliance leaders. Nations could not longer express their opinions on the forums for fear of reprisal.

In the early years when there was a degree of balance in this world, the NPO made an interesting villian: They were a Machiavellian group of ruthless, arrogant thugs that anyone could hate. But when they won, we saw what their idea of how Cybernations politics should be: a stream of alliances to amuse the Order's hunger for war. I believe that a complete dissolution of the alliance will detract from this community, for the reasons previously espoused. But I think I speak for the rest of us when I say the last two years, compared to what came before, were !@#$@#$ boring. I hope that we don't go back to the status quo because it's high time for change from the dull slog of the Order's rule.

[Matthew Conrad]

Once again, I'm not the one who brought up spying. You're the one who brought it into the conversation so you can hardly blame me if I responded to it.

You quoted yourself bringing up something you call off topic and blame it on me? I also didn't bring up the subject of the forums but hey, whose keeping record right? Anyways, the forums are part of the political process as it allows for easy discourse among the public. The way people converse in the forums indicates the general attitude of the people. How you see this as off-topic is perplexing. What's more amazing is that you blame me for it when you, once again, brought up the subject. Either way, anything I've said that's not directly tied to CN or this topic was used as an example to reinforce my hypothesis.

Also, if you don't remember what this was all about, as you suggested in your post previous to your last, I'd suggest actually going back to what I originally quoted so you have an idea of what's going on.

[TehChron]

You make excellent points, John Michaels, but let me tell you something.

the parroting of empty "Francoist" ideology, which is frankly nothing more than a load of Sophist !@#$%^&*

That is what it was reduced to. A fact I am disgusted by to no end...It originally meant something, but you know what? The NPO no longer has any right to claim that legacy for themselves.

@Conrad

LOL, you got served. I think we're done. You didnt have any historical evidence, if you did, I'm sure you are more than capable of going back and quoting it, like I just did.

When you do, then maybe we'll pick up again, until then, have fun. And I hope this was a learning experience for you.

Edited May 10, 2009 by ReturnOfChron

[Matthew Conrad]

You make excellent points, John Michaels, but let me tell you something.

That is what it was reduced to. A fact I am disgusted by to no end...It originally meant something, but you know what? The NPO no longer has any right to claim that legacy for themselves.

@Conrad

LOL, you got served. I think we're done. You didnt have any historical evidence, if you did, I'm sure you are more than capable of going back and quoting it, like I just did.

When you do, then maybe we'll pick up again, until then, have fun. And I hope this was a learning experience for you.

Wow you don't even make sense. So your only response to my pointing out your hypocrisy is "LOL I WON". Try harder next time lol

Maybe learn to remember what you say.

[TehChron]

Wow you don't even make sense. So your only response to my pointing out your hypocrisy is "LOL I WON". Try harder next time lol

Maybe learn to remember what you say.

Hypocrisy is new.

So...where be those Historical Evidence quotes you were referring to earlier?

[Matthew Conrad]

Spying? We beat the !@#$ out of alliances we caught doing it.

What the hell did spying have to do with anything, by the way? And all my posts said no such thing about LUE having some kind of "Iron Grip"

Edited for irrelevant parts of quotes.

As you'll notice, I made no mention of spying before the first quote as seen above. Thus, I don't see how you can try and call me out for talking about spying when you brought it up. Next time try harder than what simpletons use to win arguments. I know you're better than that lol

EDIT: For clarification

Edited May 11, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[TehChron]

The morals became generalized because through sheer force of personality, we enforced them.

Spying? We beat the !@#$ out of alliances we caught doing it.

Being "!@#$%bags" to others in general? Beat the !@#$ out of them too. If you wanted to talk trash about an alliance pre-GWI, you needed to do it off-forum or in PMs.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1514665

Re-edited for intended tone. As I said before: Focusing on a single off-topic point while ignoring the larger point being made is evidence of your own failing at making an argument.

Sad but true. Context is everything, and you, frankly, don't have any context of anything to support you. We're done.

I suggest you quit embarassing yourself.

[Matthew Conrad]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1514665

Re-edited for intended tone. As I said before: Focusing on a single off-topic point while ignoring the larger point being made is evidence of your own failing at making an argument.

Sad but true. Context is everything, and you, frankly, don't have any context of anything to support you. We're done.

I suggest you quit embarassing yourself.

It's completely irrelevant to your cause as my quotes were to prove your hypocrisy and nothing about my hypothesis. I beat you at your own game and you're just too stubborn to admit failure.

[TehChron]

It's completely irrelevant to your cause as my quotes were to prove your hypocrisy and nothing about my hypothesis. I beat you at your own game and you're just too stubborn to admit failure.

...What did you beat me at...exactly?

So you're admitting that you don't even care about the topic of this thread anymore, and are just trying to troll me?

That's low, man. I quoted your previous posts to disprove your claims...But you're doing nothing more than flame.

I'm pretty sure that's against forum rules.

[WarriorConcept]

What in the bloody world are you guys arguing?

A community, precedents, and anything of the sort would've been put in place regardless if it was NPO, or anyone else.

As for the original topic I'd have to say that at this point in time the world might be multi-polar enough to be fun enough without NPO needing to be around anymore. That does not mean, however, that I wish for their disbandment.

[Matthew Conrad]

...What did you beat me at...exactly?

So you're admitting that you don't even care about the topic of this thread anymore, and are just trying to troll me?

That's low, man. I quoted your previous posts to disprove your claims...But you're doing nothing more than flame.

I'm pretty sure that's against forum rules.

It's funny that you bring up flaming again. Who was the one at first trying to remain civil and who was the one coming in and calling everything "stupid"? I pointed out your hypocrisy but I don't think many people call that flaming. I'm all for proper communication but if you're just going to insult my character and my posts like that you might as well stop before you post.

FYI: Calling someone a troll is also against forum rules.

[TehChron]

It's funny that you bring up flaming again. Who was the one at first trying to remain civil and who was the one coming in and calling everything "stupid"? I pointed out your hypocrisy but I don't think many people call that flaming. I'm all for proper communication but if you're just going to insult my character and my posts like that you might as well stop before you post.

FYI: Calling someone a troll is also against forum rules.

Dismissing your baseless arguments isnt a character attack.

If you point out my hypocrisy, please do. Im waiting. I am also waiting for that "historical evidence" you cited so often.

Im waiting for a lot of things from you, actually, like knowing when to quit.

[Matthew Conrad]

Dismissing your baseless arguments isnt a character attack.

If you point out my hypocrisy, please do. Im waiting. I am also waiting for that "historical evidence" you cited so often.

Im waiting for a lot of things from you, actually, like knowing when to quit.

Edited for irrelevant parts of quotes.

As you'll notice, I made no mention of spying before the first quote as seen above. Thus, I don't see how you can try and call me out for talking about spying when you brought it up. Next time try harder than what simpletons use to win arguments. I know you're better than that lol

EDIT: For clarification

My arguments and hypothesis were very much backed by valid information, but I don't know why I keep trying to prove it to you as you're the only one who can't see it. But, I suppose calling them "stupid" is much easier right? Honestly, your first two sentences have been answered a thousand times so browse through the previous few pages at your heart's content.

[TehChron]

My arguments and hypothesis were very much backed by valid information, but I don't know why I keep trying to prove it to you as you're the only one who can't see it. But, I suppose calling them "stupid" is much easier right? Honestly, your first two sentences have been answered a thousand times so browse through the previous few pages at your heart's content.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1516511

I believe that post is enough of a purview of what transpired over the past couple of pages to satisfy any curiosity as to what your claims were.

If they "were" (love the past tense), then surely you wouldn't mind linking or quoting the relevant parts for everyone to see? I mean...you even let me get away with pointing out how you hadn't even posted a single opinion up to that stage in the thread.

If you can't properly defend your claims, why are you still here? I gave you the chance to back off when your claims were utterly defeated. I gave you a chance at some dignity. No one can say that what you're doing now is improving your rhetorical standing in any way at this point.

[John Michaels]

Frankly Chron and Conrad you need to start over because neither of you are making a shred of sense at this point. It's just post after post of "I won" "No I did" etc. etc. and it doesn't mean a damn thing.

[TehChron]

Frankly Chron and Conrad you need to start over because neither of you are making a shred of sense at this point. It's just post after post of "I won" "No I did" etc. etc. and it doesn't mean a damn thing.

No it doesnt. After I threw his quotes back at him I thought we were finished. Guess I'll start ignoring him, then.

[Matthew Conrad]

OOC: NPO originated from another "world". She was not present when it was first created and that "world" had established civilization and morals that are at least similar to ours. NPO was definitely not the first alliance there and it developed just fine. It's not like devotion to an alliance or off-site forums are only inherent to NPO. Just because NPO did it first here doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened eventually. Many other alliances also came from off-boards eventually and some had pretty good orginization from the get-go without even knowing the existence of NPO. Our culture here, in general, is not much different from others. Such needs and morals are bred into our nature.

I let you post that because it was so obviously "stupid" that it was hardly worth answering. I put forth my thesis (in my first post of course), which if you would like me to repost the definition of an opinion I can, about the likelihood of another alliance replacing NPO. That would be an opinion my friend. If I answered every baseless attack you've launched against me I'd hardly have time to sleep.

FYI: I believe it was my second post provided evidence in the form of human behavior and some historical context in the form of how behavior developed in NPO's original home.

Frankly Chron and Conrad you need to start over because neither of you are making a shred of sense at this point. It's just post after post of "I won" "No I did" etc. etc. and it doesn't mean a damn thing.

I really don't care about winning this futile war Chron has decided to take into every other direction, but I don't care to stand by and let him throw baseless accusations at me. I mean, it was him who kept bringing up the fact that I somehow fail whereas I was trying to put forth an alternative scenario to the person I originally quoted. But no, apparently he feels like I'm breaking forum rules by calling ME a troll lol

[TehChron]

OOC: NPO originated from another "world". She was not present when it was first created and that "world" had established civilization and morals that are at least similar to ours. NPO was definitely not the first alliance there and it developed just fine. It's not like devotion to an alliance or off-site forums are only inherent to NPO. Just because NPO did it first here doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened eventually. Many other alliances also came from off-boards eventually and some had pretty good orginization from the get-go without even knowing the existence of NPO. Our culture here, in general, is not much different from others. Such needs and morals are bred into our nature.

For the record...What the hell are you even referring to? If its OOC, you dont have to say "Other World", and frankly, you didn't even give examples of anything, and just made a broad, generalized claim based off that simple inferred "fact".

[Matthew Conrad]

For the record...What the hell are you even referring to? If its OOC, you dont have to say "Other World", and frankly, you didn't even give examples of anything, and just made a broad, generalized claim based off that simple inferred "fact".

I believe even OOC this certain place is banned from being spoken of. I think you realize what place NPO has it's origins in. If not, pm me and I'll tell you. I gave examples of what commenced there and of basic human nature present to all of us today and how it affects our playing style no matter what "character" we try to portray.

[TehChron]

I believe even OOC this certain place is banned from being spoken of. I think you realize what place NPO has it's origins in. If not, pm me and I'll tell you. I gave examples of what commenced there and of basic human nature present to all of us today and how it affects our playing style no matter what "character" we try to portray.

...No you didn't.

Those forums are nothing like these...I said that. Several times.

Are you delusional, or something? If so, that would explain soooo much. In fact...I destroyed that "human nature" argument, because it had no factual basis...in anything. At all.

What were you thinking, saying that? Seriously. What you said, and the reality, are completely unlike one another.

[Matthew Conrad]

...No you didn't.

Those forums are nothing like these...I said that. Several times.

Are you delusional, or something? If so, that would explain soooo much. In fact...I destroyed that "human nature" argument, because it had no factual basis...in anything. At all.

What were you thinking, saying that? Seriously. What you said, and the reality, are completely unlike one another.

Like I said earlier, those forums were civilized before NPO's birth (be that by mods or by some other entity). I also used the word "generally" so that excludes the fact that it has to be exactly the same (such as the fact they are more RP heavy).

Are you serious with your second "argument"? How many RP boards do you see that has completely alien traits? They all have people who play characters but they still do so with basic human traits such as organization and the need to be the best. Those two traits alone cause the rise of "internet empires." Everything we build has a hint of human nature in it or would you argue that human nature doesn't exist? Competition and the dominance of the superior is present in everything humans do and build.

[TehChron]

Like I said earlier, those forums were civilized before NPO's birth (be that by mods or by some other entity). I also used the word "generally" so that excludes the fact that it has to be exactly the same (such as the fact they are more RP heavy).

Are you serious with your second "argument"? How many RP boards do you see that has completely alien traits? They all have people who play characters but they still do so with basic human traits such as organization and the need to be the best. Those two traits alone cause the rise of "internet empires." Everything we build has a hint of human nature in it or would you argue that human nature doesn't exist? Competition and the dominance of the superior is present in everything humans do and build.

(OOC)These arent RP boards...they're discussion boards for a nation simulator game. What occurs here has actual repercussions with how things occur in the game itself. In that other game...They dont. At all.

Those forums growth or lack of it had nothing to do with the existance of the NPO. At all. They were completely divorced from the politics of the Regions and their off-site forums.

And pulling a "human nature" defense as justification for your beliefs smacks of the inability to properly articulate a justification for your arguments. And even then, the NPO was exceptional to the point where it was their values, literally, which defined interactions on these forums.

The fact that things here dont fit nicely and neatly into your claims is why you are wrong. The fact that you insist that you are right despite evidence showing otherwise makes your posts a waste of everyone's time. Stop it.

You have no evidence. You claim to, but you don't. You have inferrences, but you dont have evidence of anything. At all. (/OOC)

[Matthew Conrad]

(OOC)These arent RP boards...they're discussion boards for a nation simulator game. What occurs here has actual repercussions with how things occur in the game itself. In that other game...They dont. At all.

Those forums growth or lack of it had nothing to do with the existance of the NPO. At all. They were completely divorced from the politics of the Regions and their off-site forums.

And pulling a "human nature" defense as justification for your beliefs smacks of the inability to properly articulate a justification for your arguments. And even then, the NPO was exceptional to the point where it was their values, literally, which defined interactions on these forums.

The fact that things here dont fit nicely and neatly into your claims is why you are wrong. The fact that you insist that you are right despite evidence showing otherwise makes your posts a waste of everyone's time. Stop it.

You have no evidence. You claim to, but you don't. You have inferrences, but you dont have evidence of anything. At all. (/OOC)

OOC: The subforums are indeed in-character as RP is one of the defenses against EZI because a person's character is deemed dead once the nation has been deleted. The discussion boards are for the general discussion of game mechanics whereas this place is for discussing politics. Regardless of the repercussions of the boards (although I would argue only the game browser itself has a direct, pure form of effect on anything of true value) the culture there is still reflective of their characters. I mean you can talk all the !@#$ you want on here but that doesn't mean you'll actually do anything in game.

My human nature argument has more merit that you dare admit because you are too stubborn to concede when you're wrong. It is present and the many communities of the internet are my evidence of naturally developing civility (though there are a few exceptions of course). The morals of the NPO were gained through what individual members came to gain from their experiences (not some divine gift handed down to them) and aren't much different from other board communities. Thus, it is entirely possible for some other group to emerge and do what NPO did.

You speak as if that NPO was significantly different from other "dominant" groups throughout history. Look at other great powers both in virtual and real life and see what tactics and morals they employed. Many aren't much different from NPO.

[TehChron]

OOC: The subforums are indeed in-character as RP is one of the defenses against EZI because a person's character is deemed dead once the nation has been deleted. The discussion boards are for the general discussion of game mechanics whereas this place is for discussing politics. Regardless of the repercussions of the boards (although I would argue only the game browser itself has a direct, pure form of effect on anything of true value) the culture there is still reflective of their characters. I mean you can talk all the !@#$ you want on here but that doesn't mean you'll actually do anything in game.

My human nature argument has more merit that you dare admit because you are too stubborn to concede when you're wrong. It is present and the many communities of the internet are my evidence of naturally developing civility (though there are a few exceptions of course). The morals of the NPO were gained through what individual members came to gain from their experiences (not some divine gift handed down to them) and aren't much different from other board communities. Thus, it is entirely possible for some other group to emerge and do what NPO did.

You speak as if that NPO was significantly different from other "dominant" groups throughout history. Look at other great powers both in virtual and real life and see what tactics and morals they employed. Many aren't much different from NPO.

(OOC)No...it was not possible. Thats my point. You don't understand what it takes to actually impose your will on a large group of individuals in an online game. A game where their real live selves are unaffected by any possible threat, and they more or less can act as they please without repercussions to their real life selves.

You don't get what it takes to be a hyperpower in this game. Not just anyone can do it. And the opposition wasn't a bunch of brainless chuckleheads either (Though many of them were).

Your inability to understand the scope of the NPO's accomplishment back then is indicative of just how wrong you are. Take note here:

No one is agreeing with you. No one. At all. Because everyone reading this thread right now knows for a fact you have no idea what you are talking about.(/OOC)