[Doombird Sees All]

lock this useless thread already, there's no value in what's basically just a link to a spreadsheet

[Doombird Sees All]

Thank you for the help, you may never know how much I appreciate it

[Upper Tier Tracking Thread]

Commentary

Props to 2 new nations that have entered into war mode in deep space (120k+) for Equilibrium. One comes from front 1 while the other hails from front 2. It will be interesting to see how fast they get picked up and knocked down. For now though congratulations to Arianna of The Order of Righteous Nations and Chiles of The Apparatus. 

 

I'm guessing not very long at all :) :gun:

[Graphing the War (Because numbers suck)]

except instead of crying I'm laughing, but way to read.  No one in Umbrella is crying about this, it's comedy man!

[Graphing the War (Because numbers suck)]

None of you find it funny that it took 2.75x the nations to pull this off?  I'm all for a fair and fun war, but the sheer size of the coalition EQ had to put together to even attempt this war is really the saddest part about the entire war.  Obviously the stats aren't gonna change dramatically from what you'd expect from a 3:1 advantage, but good god man, talk about some dominance and inspired fear!

[Amazing Nukes]

over a month into the war and I STILL GOT IT!!

 

 

Your nation has been attacked with nuclear weapons by CubaQuerida. Your fallout shelters have limited the damage caused by this attack. You lost 40435 soldiers, 6294 defending tanks, 2 cruise missiles, 774.362 miles of land, 376.767 technology, 1,130.300 infrastructure, 50% of your aircraft, and 18% of your nuclear vulnerable navy force. In addition to these losses your nation will experience several days of economic devastation.

[Upper End of the War]

So if the overall coalition stats in the other threads are to be believed, a number of you seem to think that 30-50 super tier nations - some of whom probably don't even have anyone in range anymore - are going to outweigh the approx. 90 mil. NS difference in coalition stengths. [b]Am I getting that right?[/b] That about 5 mil. NS worth of large nations are going to make the difference there? I guess there's no accounting for the psychological or political impact that winning the 100k+ or 120k+ range will have, but some of you really seem to be ignoring the context in which this is occurring.

Yes you are getting that right.  This thread is not about how the whole war will go, but "Upper End of the War", so yes 30-50 super tier nations will end up making a huge impact, moreso than the 12 nations that comprised it two weeks ago.

[Upper End of the War]

The upper end is shifting downwards from the original 120k mark.  Whereas the super tier can eliminate very quickly any threat above 115k, we are growing rapidly stronger in the rest of the upper tier as well.  The prediction earlier of 30+ nations in the upper tier is coming to fruition, so congrats to whoever posted that.  As this number swells you'll see more and more pressure applied to the top-most portion of the "EQ killzone grinder of inevitable death" until it's limited to either just Peace Mode nations or low-threat, nuke-only types.  What Timmehh spoke about is extreme, but there's enough "pudding" there to make it at least a possible outcome, albeit improbable.

[Graphing the War (Because numbers suck)]

This "grinder zone" of which you speak is collapsing more and more every week.  As DH is expanding its downward push across pretty much all 3 fronts, the upper end will soon move down past 110-120k into the lower reaches of the 85-90k plateau.  Meaning that at some point, despite the huge presence EQ claims to have at this level, there will be a pretty definitive edge on both sides of this alleged "kill zone".  It will never be squished completely, because the nations have to reside SOMEWHERE in the NS spectrum.  

 

But if EQ would like to amend the victory conditions YET again to "we can dominate your mid-tier at will", it would make the most sense as an achievable goal.  The rest is fading quickly.

[Upper End of the War]

Thank you for your dedication Vasily, it's a tremendous task to objectively parse that much data without drawing too much bias.

 

As for the nuke situation, I'd like to add that you don't always need a nuke to be successful in heavily damaging your opponent, and on the flip-side, just because you land a nuke doesn't ensure heavy damage.  Nukes are great tools, and probably overpowered once you get enough tech behind them, but they are far from the end-all-be-all of military damage doing.

[Upper End of the War]

Personally, I would settle for an admission that using Ai as a shooting range for bored Umbrella members is actually a really bad idea :P

 

Isn't this pretty much what Umbrella is doing currently?

[Mushroom Kingdom Official Sanctification]

Even when MM came out, he still got wrecked :)

[Graphing the War (Because numbers suck)]

Can we PLEASE stop with this outnumbered versus teaming nonsense? It's [b]much[/b] more preferable to be on the triple team side than the underdog side and the damage differential is [u]ENORMOUS[/u]. A well coordinated 3v1 is devastating and renders the opponent crippled within a very short period of time. Statistically speaking, even though only one nuke would land, all the ensuing successful attacks do so much damage, that even if the underdog manages to land his 3 nukes (which is almost logistically impossible for 7 days), he still may not win anything other than a handful of air battles. Under these circumstances you would expect to see the underdog side getting HAMMERED, not putting up equal damage numbers. Here's the problem: This is not a tremendously well-coordinated effort and there are NOT as many 3v1's as you think there are. The closer these damage graphs get to 1:1, the bigger the failure by the swarming side. Sure, Week 1 is explosive because everyone can land all their nukes, but that's over and done with. Now is the time we SHOULD be seeing huge shifts in damage output, but it's [i]just not there[/i]. You can say "we're winning" or "you're losing" but the fact is the damage graphs show equality, which is NOT a favorable outcome in a dogpile, regardless of these nonsensical "we have more nukes than you" arguments.

[Upper End of the War]

I'm still not seeing the endgame for EQ here. The DH side was more proactive before the war in securing tech deals, building NS correctly and coordinating most aspects of the game. As both sides drag each other to the bottom ranks of the list, it's just going to be a rebuilding race again, and all these suicided nations aren't going to be coming back ever. As soon as the war ends, you'll see a huge surge in NS from both sides of the war and I'm fairly certain everything will have returned to about where it was before, except for the neutral AA's, but they've proven they're no threat to anyone. EQ wasn't focused on tech then, and why would anything change after they proclaim "Mission Accomplished" and go back to having a ton of 85k nations with 8k tech. [b]Better question[/b]: What's to stop a nation like Timmehh or Oyababy from coming after all of your Perma-Peace Mode 150k nations once the war ends? Especially now that you have zero nations to stop them and have shown that you can only make a war fair if you bring 3x-4x the number of nations the other side has??

[Seven Years of Neutrality!]

What an awesome announcement. I think my favorite part was the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Make War not Love]

Let this be a shining example of what happens to your top tier when you bring inferior firepower to a big gun fight.

[Letters from the front]

To: CubaQuerida From: Matasumouri

Date: 1/31/2013 11:35:09 PM

Subject: sooo... Message: I MAY have been given the wrong link and accidently declared on you... you willing to call peace since it was a bit of a misclick?

[Upper End of the War]

I

 

Umbrella

 

CubaQuerida

To begin with, Umbrella's largest nation and king of the massively overpowered nuke, CubaQuerida is in peace mode.  Well at least until he ends up with 11 nuclear weapons.  In fact Cuba is not all that interesting, he's big, he's mean, and he just finished up an extremely destructive war with BubblerNation. For EQ though it isn't a great sign that Cuba was allowed to hop into peace mode and restock his nukes. Anyway, moving on to the war mode nations.

 

Cmon man, I'm plenty interesting, why you gotta go there?

[Umbrella-AI Propaganda Thread]

...both sides have people with RL obligations. That type of propaganda is retarded imo. 

 

It feels wrong to agree with Kaskus, but a very good point.

[Upper End of the War]

To be fair to Bob, you lost 40k NS in the time period you were fighting that guy.  If you were at the bottom of a theoretical DMZ, it would be plenty to drop you low enough that others could jump in.  Your performance against one nation was extremely impressive and you probably gave more damage than you took overall but in the end the goal wouldn't be to avoid damage it would be just to damage you enough to get you below the line.

 

I'm not saying the overall strategy would work but your reasoning for why it wouldn't is flawed.

 

To be exact, I lost a total of 39k NS while fighting the absolute strongest nation the EQ side had to offer at me, 10k of which was recovered during the course of the war.  There are no other nations within 8000 tech of Bubbler Nation and he was the most competitive fighter I've faced, probably ever.  

 

The strategy of updeclaring with the intent of nuking and doing moderate damage to bring a nation into range of other nations is one I fully understand.  It's quite successful at certain NS ranges.  Here's the problem: the tactic of getting a smaller nation to do a kamikaze declare, drop a token nuke and hopefully win an air battle here and there and hope to ding the NS of super tier nations is a whole different beast; and what I've been trying to explain for 8 pages now, is that nation will be decimated in the process, especially if the NS was from high infra.

 

I don't feel compelled to argue this with words that just come off sounding arrogant, take a look around, and see for yourself.  The war will probably not be won from the super tier alone, but if <100k is considered the EQ shark tank, you might as well consider over 100k the EQ graveyard.

[Upper End of the War]

Not being biased here, but the same way you said that you could factor other AAs that helped you from time to time, there are many other alliances that you could factor on the Eq side. In fact, there are multiple alliances from the Q side that havent joined yet. While some of them are not particularly strong (except one), all of them have a handfull of nations above 100. Some alliances that might eventually joing Q: Apparatus, UPN, House Baratheon, Alpha Omega (despite umbrella ties) etc.

I think the war is too early to call, however as I said earlier, the biggest advantage of Q side is the capacity of rotate nations and even alliances. On the other hand DH side nations will need to be either in PM or engaged.


Added: By the way, The order of the black rose has a treaty with Sparta. If I was Sparta's MoFA (I was in the past but I not even in the AA anymore) I would be talking to Hime Themis everyday trying to convince them to join. They are not very fond of DH and While the possibility of they joining the war is low , if happens it would be a major blow against DH.

It's already the most lopsided dogpile in CN history, yet you still feel the need to add more AA's to the mix! Are you not seeing what is happening?

Speaking for the Upper Tier of the war, as this thread is titled, there will not be a single EQ nation over 110k when all is said and done. This is not propaganda or idle threat, this is a certainty. I'm not sure how many different ways it must be spelled out, but that spells disaster to me, as the 120+ range is my playground as it is for many of my allies.

The guy who posted about bring up a nation "just in range of the top nations" made my year by the way. See my war chart vs zangetsu if you need a preview of how that goes. I just fail to see how this current upper tier scenario wasn't envisioned by the EQ war planners (if such a job exists).

http://www.cybernations.net/war_information.asp?ID=714399

P.S. - I am dearly hoping one of the 30k peacemoders comments about how I'm currently in peace mode...

[Upper End of the War]

100k nations will get declared by our 133k nations. Your 75k nations will be declared upon by our 100k nations etcetera. Our nations will be selling of infra, decomming planes, tanks, cm's and be at 20% troops while the defending EQ nation is inflating his NS with max militairy. So there will be some brutal downdeclares. With a proper downdeclare, you will win all spy attacks, most of the navy attacks, you will win most GA, and most AC.

Also the top 250 bar keeps getting lower. It's 135k now and I expect it to drop down to 125k at least. The topnations will be ghosting and hitting any EQ nation in range and will shed NS that way which keeps them in range of other targets. 

Personally I am willing to sell a lot of stuff to get in range of some targets :).

 

He's on my side, and yet I still find myself frightened by this...

[Upper End of the War]

 
This. The main goal of the war is to stop the cycle of DH beating down the rest of CN's upper tiers. Just because NPO/DR has allies on both sides does not detract them from the original aim of the war.

It would seem that this goal will not be coming to fruition.

[Upper End of the War]

That's cool and all, but: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AljpRsRmfwjmdDUwbGo5LW1sam5uVmYzTmo0LW42UXc

 

Not to mention, GATO/NG/NoR are only semi-engaged.

 

Yes, your Timehh and oyababys (cue joke) will reign relatively unchecked, but that is not enough to give you victory.

 

A world where Timmehh runs unchecked is not a happy world for anyone.  Not sure anybody wins under that circumstance :)

[Upper End of the War]

Let's imagine that things went perfectly to DH and they manage to decisively win the war in the upper tie and put all the Equilibrium nations bellow the 100k NS barrier, would Equilibrium be forced to surrender in this case? Or wouldn't they care? Afterall they still would have the massive advantage on mid/low tiers to keep DH side on peace mode or/and severely damage those who exit it. So, upper tie is really that crucial to decide a war despite all the other factors?

 

It's not even imagining at this point d34th, it's the way it has gone.  

 

It all depends on what EQ would consider victory.  If making most DH nations lose some ground against the neutrals/rest of bob at the cost of every EQ alliances nations over 100k being crushed is considered acceptable, then the war will go on for a long time.

 

However, if reason and rationality set in, and EQ starts to worry about how losing all those top nations makes it hard to stay relevant for the future, you may see fringe AA's peel off.  It's been a very ugly war, both from a coordination standpoint, and from sheer brutality of destruction.  There's a chance that not everyone signed up for that.

 

Obviously I have a DH bias, but there's only so many times you can see months unravel off your nation before you start to consider what you're fighting for.  

I hate ending sentences on a preposition.  Sorry CH