Vhalen
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Posts posted by Vhalen
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You know, initially I thought, "Oh, here we go again," but GGA seems to actually have a point this time. I'd urge them to make their point quickly and come to a swift, clean, non-extortive peace, though, as it doesn't sound like there's any malice here.
WOW!!! Let me give this some thought a moment...maybe I will ask the GGA to change it's mind because of the opinion of an HONORABLE and FAIR member of Vox Populi...oooh...wait...I am sorry...I forgot...that is like the tooth fairy...Only exists in imagination.shane, it wouldn't hurt to look at your alliance from an outside point of view before belittling the honor of other alliances. GGA's not exactly painted itself as one of the more upstanding parts of CN in the recent past.
Check, and mate, good sir.1) His alliance membership mask is not OOC... it's based on him being a ruler on Planet Bob.
2) His mask is not a real life possession. It's 1's and 0's.
3) You quote the ToS using the term "real life", then slip in your own "OOC". I assume you did this because you know it's full of !@#$.
OOC: I guess I don't have to explain where 1's and 0's can be actual possessions. We've certainly all installed software, watched a movie, seen a piece of photoshop art, read a novel, or opened a bank account. I grant that a forum mask isn't on the same level as any of those, but your statement doesn't differentiate. However, I do think that, regarding forums, some of the larger alliances get away with way more than should be permitted. I'd say, for instance, that any surrender terms including forum access (especially administrative access), are clearly extortive in nature. I apologize for getting off track, but it seems I can drum up more interest over this one point than the entirety of the rest of this thread.
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I'm hardly an advocate for tech-raiding... but that comparison is a little much.
What do you have against Nintendo?
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Not too shabby. Certainly could have been a looooot tougher.
Well, when one has nothing, it's hard to extort 12.3 million tech from them (figure extrapolated, based on other recent surrenders).
Any terms too much tougher would've likely just been replied to with bird flipping and rerolling (grudges included). As we all know, that's a good way to run things.Take it as granted that some will unknowingly have business with former VP Nation. Besides, this is a weird condition (if they're peaced out, what's the point of forbidding future business among them? Assuming that I got this point correctly, of course: I'm quite unsure.)Other than this, nice set of terms. I appreciate the usage of IRC and CN Board PMs (these last are by the way the best way to be sure of the identity of your interlocutors!)
I also present my personal extra share of respect to ODN, for their absence from point 2.
I agree that it's weird wording. I imagine it had more to do with the time of the writing, and lack of proofreading, than any sort of malicious intent for later, though I do seem to recall that Vox went to war with GGA over a godawful CB that these terms could easily be used to repeat in the future. "Those two guys used to be on VP, but both joined <Alliance X>. Because they're tech-dealing with each other, it's war with you guys!" Because of all this, it's good that later in the thread, they already clarified that such was not the intent.
Lenient terms don't surprise me, though. The "power structure" just wants Vox to disappear, and offering the most lenient terms possible, so long as the members split up and wander off, is the best way to ensure that.
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not to mention this is TE, we don't need treaties, for the lulz is a valid reason, if people choose to have treaties to guarantee someone helps them fight thats cool, but because your mother is fat is a valid reason. Please don't turn this into SE.
I'm confused. I thought these were valid reasons in SE.
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Anyway, tell me, why would they want to harvest IPs? I think it is quite insane a notion to think the leaders of the Coalition want the IP of every Vox member who surrenders. They have no motive to go to such lengths to gain such information.
Well, the first thing that pops into my mind is, later, when a CB is needed, they can always check those IPs and claim "harboring terrorists" or some such, not that anything like that has ever happened, or is likely to...
The fact is, information doesn't have to be true to be used as a CB. I get the feeling we're past that, at this point, whenever necessary. "War were declared," and worry about why later.
quick question.I just re-created earlier today, didnt expect this coming. Since my nation was deleted, and i just remade it, same name and ruler and such, i should still surrender right?
I think you should probably surrender twice, once for the old nation, and once for the new, just in case.
Right. Everything we do has an ulterior motive. We are the true evil scourge of the Cyberverse. We have plotted the destruction of every alliance that currently exists so that we are playing this game in the end all by ourselves. Sounds like a lot of fun, doesn't it?
This was done by The Continuum alliances who were part of the Coalition in addition to us. Oh wait. I guess the puppet master is pulling the strings again. The external site allows for efficient accounting and documentation of who surrendered and who did not. PMs and irc conversations with different alliance leaders can easily result in mistakes being made with nations who surrendered being wrongfully attacked.
Please. Give me and everyone else a break and cut the tin foil theories. You've been drinking too much of the Kool-aid.
It is, as we all know, terribly complex to make a list and transfer/add names to it. Certainly it's painfully difficult to provide people an alternative method of surrender wherein their information isn't put into hands they don't trust with it. Now, don't get me wrong, I doubt there's anything like that going on here, but the fact remains that with CN having such a stellar history about such things, the suspicion's going to be out there.
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you seriously screwed up Orange Juices score. Either that or they lost 5 points in less than 24 hours.
I'd hazard a guess that the 7 and 2 got reversed, and it was actually 12.78 (which would mean a .42 gain), but that's just speculation.
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So sad for you... give us a shout when you decide you like them pixels...
OOC: You must not know who you're talking to. Stryke's a pretty firm "honor before pixels" sort.
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Yet, Vox has found itself on the edge of being a lulzy alliance due to its determination to turn things into a joke (i.e. the spying accusations, the endless threads, Doitzel's spy ring) that has ultimately driven away people who actually want change, in my opinion.
This amuses me, as GGA seems to be saying that Vox is lulzy. Sorry to distract from the Q&A, however. I guess I could ask a related question to make up for it.
Which alliance do you believe is the most embarrassing to themselves in the way they've conducted themselves lately?
Since Vox started a Q & A thread. That's kind of the point of a Q & A thread. I'm sorry if this reality disturbs you.Hailing NPO is the point of a Q&A thread? Where do you get your definitions?
Ah yes puppets. And they eat babies too.Well, I believe I read somewhere that they were out of wheat, so something had to give. It's sad that they've resorted to cannibalism, but I suppose we can look on the bright side. Those babies could've had to put up with the "adults" around them for quite a long time. It's possible they're better off.
I go back to my original point. What if those that are allied to Pacifica ARE thinking for ourselves? What if those of us that are allied to Pacifica are happy to have them as allies because of mutual respect and benefit? How exactly does that make Pacifica and allies wrong?I point out that these questions are all made in the hypothetical. From this, we can assume that they do not reflect reality. (Also, Slayer, don't bother answering me, as I shan't be responding to you. It's utterly transparent that your posts here are largely intended simply to be inflammatory, and I find it extremely unlikely that you have anything to add to the discussion.)
Now back to your regularly scheduled Q&A session.
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why are you guys doing this?
i know you believe that you're doing what is "right", but you will lose and you know it.
the strong established alliances of CN have millions of NS behind them and their members are loyal and dedicated (well most of them).
you will never win.
newer nations will never catch up to the older stronger nations, and your ZId nations will certainly never be able to do any real damage.
when you have lost a game, you just quit, its real life where you have to keep trying when you lose and fight for what you see as right, because you can't quit it and get out of it (well you can... but its not a good idea). so i'm wondering why you keep playing a game that you've lost at, just go for something else.
I'm not part of Vox, and don't speak for them, but I think this is a pretty good question and warrants comment from such a glorious, witty, and charming individual as myself. (Relax, I'm goofing around; I'm not that self-centered.)
I think you have a different idea of "win" than they do. Yours seems to be fixated on the "pixels," infra and such. Theirs is based on thoughts and ideas. There would be those among them who'd say you've already lost.
As for loyal, dedicated members, part of why Vox is here, at least as I've seen it, is to make those very members take note of what they're loyal and dedicated to. Each who becomes disillusioned with the current mess is a victory for Vox. Each who leaves is a defeat for their alliance. Each who speaks up makes the Voice louder, and even if he is shouted down or attacked, he is heard. As I see it, that's why Vox Populi is around, and even if the alliance should disappear, those sorts of effects linger.
(Also, I personally encourage everyone in CN who has "lost" to immediately quit. It'll be amusing to see who gets attacked then...though there would be perilously few players, so I guess nobody'd care.)
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This topic was made for Opethians amusement. He does NOT hold any influence over our decisions. As stated before he can contact us privately.
It seems like he does. It's quite clear that your decision's different because he made this post.
Your problem is you've basically said "do it this way or else", and most people don't take kindly to threats or to little midgets trying to push them around. If you were actually willing to negotiate, things would be different, but you set out, most likely, with two things in mind. 1) to make defcon look bad (which you've failed at) and 2) to get yourself into a war, which you could have done any which way by merely going rogue on people.I wouldn't say he's failed at all, if making them look bad was his goal (which it isn't). Frankly, I think I've only seen one member of DefCon who has replied here and made me feel like they have redeeming qualities. (I leave it as an exercise to the student to figure out which, and what percentage of DefCon posters that is.)
I dont think Vox has a leg to stand on when they say spying on "unrecognized" alliances is bad. I seem to remember you guys doing it to a certain green alliance and then not recognizing them any more.I believe you'll find that the "certain green alliance" (or colony, depending on which text you read) took the initiative on that one, anyway.
Two members once I'm done doing what I do best.Boring him to death?
Most decent alliances are actually still doing alright.OH WAIT! you meant alliances like STA.. hahahaha, you're silly. No one considers them decent.
I've been having a lot of trouble finding any decent alliance at all, to tell the truth. They're probably small enough to not have attracted any attention, though. I know every alliance I've seen posts from on the forums is pretty much worthless.
I'd be saying the same things in defense of my ally no matter who was on the other side.-Bama
Good to see you can think for yourself. I'd hate for you to just mindlessly tow the party line.
I don't think you count as not having a vested interest.Defcon's only options are to fight, or to drop a member.
I'd choose the former too.
I can't say I like Uacyuri, but as a member of his alliance, he's entitled to it's protection even if he makes mistakes.
I'm not saying Opethian should back down, but I don't think he deserves much vocal support in this matter.
I'm reminded of the WAPA issue, and in all honesty, I don't think it was the PPF being bullied when it came down to it.
I think I'd choose option three. Fight, and then boot him.
It's only ridiculously low if he wanted to replace them, but seeing as how he wants war and is intent on wasting his nukes on his own, it wasn't low at all, considering the price of a nuke is, what, like a million bucks?You count using them as wasting them? I think he has a different view of that.
Why would they look weak? They discard a member that steals nukes, disregards orders and says incredibly stupid things instead of keeping him and they look weak?They look pathetic by keeping him. I mean, you keep somebody like that for what reason? To show that you can't get bossed around by a 3-man alliance? Newsflash: you can't! I hope somebody realized this earlier.
Shh, stop making sense. Someone'll notice.
And now for my own nonsense:
This thread is a microcosm of CN lately. Bully pokes, someone stands up, bully has big PR war and (undoubtedly) mauls him. The only thing that worries me is how our protagonist will manage to pay the billion tech in reps, after it's over.
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By your thinking, TOP shouldn't have joined this war then, because as far as I know, the odds didn't reach 10 to 1 until most of NpO's allies had surrendered. Sorry to be nitpicky. Maybe if you said 7 to 1, or 6 to 1, it would have been mathematically defensible, even if logically still not so much.
It occurs to me to point out that a few of NpO's allies had already been strategically dealt with before this war began, in order to insure that the odds would be pleasantly in favor of the hired thugs.
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Not when it comes to Graemlins, classy groups usually don't get curbstomped.
I dunno. People need less and less of a reason nowadays. I daresay they'd tell you as quickly as I am now, that just assuming you're safe is particularly unwise, and probably means you have one foot in the grave already. And it's more of a general rule and a word of cautioning, than a specific prediction, anyway.
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Polar can either see this as "the man" keeping them down and hold a grudge against us, in which case a future conflict may be inevitable (but they wont be able to damage us significantly due to the terms). Alternatively, they can view this for what it is, an opportunity to clear their slate and reach a point where they can begin rebuilding themselves.
It is my hope that, as a by-product of the forced cooperation required in upholding the surrender terms and distributing the reparations, a workable relationship can be built between our governments. It doesn't have to reach a level that we call each other allies or even friends, but hopefully we can at least learn to respect each other so that we may co-exist without further bloodshed.
Because extortion always makes the victim feel all warm and fuzzy inside. And yes, color it how you want, money/tech war terms in CN are extortion. If you were serious about improving relations, you'd be helping them rebuild instead of dismantling them as thoroughly as possible. How can they not see it as "keeping them down," save putting their metaphorical eyes out?
Also, don't hold your breath about that "won't be able to damage us significantly" bit. They could always wait until you're out of favor and join a bandwagon. That tactic seems to work on pretty much anyone, and when it does, the odds dramatically improve, don't they?
Apologies if this derails the thread, and this isn't necessarily a defense of Polaris either, but what a !@#$%* world we live in where the mere discussion of terms is apparently something to be lauded and not just par the courseOh, I wouldn't worry about it derailing anything. I think trains on these forums just careen into the nearest wall and smolder until the flames reach the leaking fuel. I agree, though. On the other hand, at least it shows they're able to conduct adult conversations, which will make their mommies proud.
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The only thing this should serve for anyone besides the NpO and Coalition are to let everyone know that the war between the two is over, and so that neither side can, at a later point in time, claim that the terms are different than what was agreed upon.
Like it or not, your opinions of the terms are moot. The only opinions that matter are those of the parties that agreed to the terms.
If it isn't locked, it also serves as a platform for discussion. As a platform for discussion, it therefore holds that opinions are valid subject matter. And anything anyone says, that someone reads, does have some effect, despite whatever you may believe. What makes such opinions NOT moot is that they serve as signposts for future thoughts and discussions.
Now that it's out in the open that the installation of an NPO-approved Emperor was on the table, I trust nobody except the usual partisans will try to insist that this wasn't an NPO operation from the beginning.No?!? You don't say...but, but...how could this be?
Wow gramlins are paying for their tech?Thats typical of the gramlins, good group of folks right there.
Yeah, they'd better watch it. Being decent puts you in the minority, and minority = curbstomp around here.
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Ugh, no one did an update yesterday? Meh, I'll get on it.
Yeah, diskord said he'd be away for a few days, a page or two back, so I think you may have elected yourself to cover the updates.
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Dear Mr Kelly,
With regards to the bolded portion, you are incorrect. Interrogating a prisoner =/= spying under the definitions of our charter.
With regards to everything else, I agree completely (including the part where the is no point in following this thread further.)
Perhaps we could get together for a nice refreshing beverage?
Sincerely,
ALdbeign
The thing about this is, and I've said it previously, a prisoner can't tell you what he doesn't know, and has to go "back home" to find out. If he can find out, then he's not very well a prisoner, is he? However, if he's under your control when you send him back, he's quite definitely a spy. You can't call it an interrogation if he has to go back to base in order to find something out, thus it's spying, that being the only other option.
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Heck, lately I barely pay attention to my CN:S nation. I've actually been considering just letting it inactivity delete. Doesn't really seem like there's much worthwhile there. So I guess I, for one, am a little more interested in Planet Carl than Planet Bob at present.
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Pick up a new line. You're repeating yourself and making a bigger fool of yourself every time you repeat such silly comments.
I say your alliance is embarrassing itself, and you fall back to, "NO U," hmm? Not surprising.
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Ironchef is entitled to her opinions, but as I've said, ultimately the Elders make the final decision. And the other Elders have not been silent. They have discussed the issue and private and have ruled on it in private. One of our Elders, ALdbeign, has made his opinions on the issue perfectly clear.
Good to know your government condones its members publicly embarrassing the GGA.
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look at the time stamp on the logs with Misr: Session Start: Thu Aug 21 18:59:38 2008
I didnt add the ones with Junka but I talked to him after I had tlaked to Misr: Session Start: Mon Sep 01 17:10:20 2008
Session Ident: Junkalunka
Sorry I didnt get that in there Vhalen, and I would have asked in IRC but was band from that room at the time
Hmm...didn't catch the dates. (Though it is kind of awkward the manner in which you presented them. Made it seem like you intended the Junka log to be evidence as to why you talked to Misr.)
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I asked a member of the Vox movement, and a diplomat, that had signed up on your boards about this information. I was told by one of the past members of Vox you had a Government structure of some sort and anyone with a mask on the boards could see it. Well there was no way I would ever sign up on the Vox boards as I don’t want my OOC: information out there. I limit the boards I sign up on and know the admins of such boards beforehand. As for Vox, I have no clue who they are and for that reason I would never give them my OOC: e-mail address. If you look at my info on the CN boards you will see I don’t have it listed here for all of planet Bob to see. And in no way would ever give it to some amin of Vox I don’t know.
I fail to see how reposting the logs is an argument, but whatever. I do notice that you utterly avoided my point, though.
Also, I noted the boldface, underlined words, and since you presumably mean this to indicate that you took them as gospel truth, your further queries about government make no sense whatsoever.
OOC: Also, isn't part of your ooc information (IP) available on IRC if they wanted it? As for email, I have one I use for stuff like that (internet forums, websites that ask for email and send you silly ads I don't care about, and so forth), that I barely pay attention to and don't expect any important mail to come to. I recommend the practice.
There are four other Elders besides Ironchef that had already decided without her that it was infact okay. There's no simpler way to lay this out. Spying is infiltrating an alliance (which as has been stated more than once in the last week Vox is not) to gather sensitive information.Spying is not asking who the govt. is.
Go into any sensible IRC channel and simply ask if there's any govt. available. Chances are someone within that alliance is going to point you in the direction of a govt. official.
How that varies from what ironchef had asked misr is beyond me.
According to ironchef's quoted logs, just above, she already had information that there was no government. Tell me, if she believed Junkalunka, which she apparently did, why did she continue dubiously prying? The variance is that ironchef was clearly being covert and duplicitous about it. I daresay that had she gone into the IRC channel and asked as you suggested, she'd be far less embarrassed on these forums, but it seems she preferred to privately coerce and threaten.
I do like the new tactic of the past few days, to narrowly define spying and alliance, by the way. It's amusing. I see spying as the use of covert tactics to acquire information that you have reason to believe is not freely available. I'm not going to get into technicalities on defining alliances, because I'm sure I could come up with a narrow enough definition that it only applies to me, and then I'd have to come up with a flag.
I do note, however, that it has also "been stated" that Vox is an alliance, and it's "been stated" that GGA isn't. Just because someone said something doesn't make it fact. If "who the govt. is" is private information, then tracking down that information IS spying.I'll take your word on the rubberstamp of the other Elders, though, as I'm not inclined to put forth the effort of actually tracking them down and asking. I'll let that go, simply saying that they embarrass themselves by their actions, because any "sensible" (to use your term and its implied nonapplication to the subject at hand) government official would be far more concerned with such questionable behavior by a leader.
Our Elders have censured other Elders for their actions in the past. I don't believe that it will be an issue, as Elders and Triumvirs alike have been censured, and some even removed from leadership roles and/or the alliance for their actions. The only thing is that we don't air out our members who are censured as you probably want us to do here (assuming action is taken). But we tend to have the respect enough to not post on the OWF if someone does something wrong (There was never a thread about Jonathan Brookbank getting kicked out of GGA for recruiting from within our ranks).The past, as they say, is the past. The example you use is a relatively private matter, whereas this is a particularly public one. I don't particularly care about a public acknowledgement of it, but I do note that most alliances tend to publicly mention action taken against members who make particularly public mistakes (nonsanctioned nuclear attacks, improper/vulgar posts, etc.)
My understanding is that non-members of Vox have access to these are areas that Misr could have gotten to anyways. Whether it's people who left or people who never joined, membership on your "private" forums seems very open from what I can tell.I think you're of the mistaken opinion that I'm a member of Vox. I actually have not been on their forums, but the majority of my argument has little bearing on the actual information gained (or lack thereof) but rather the manner in which ironchef conducted herself.
There are currently four Elder Statesmen who will make that determination, not one. You seem so keen on passing judgment about my alliance and its future, as well as its morals and ethics, but you clearly have no idea how we operate.That quote was meant to illustrate that ironchef seemed to be making the decisions on spying, and on whether or not she should be punished, on her own. Regardless of how you actually claim to operate, the public perception due to these threads is necessarily that ironchef can do as she likes, and ignore the charter when she prefers. The silence of the other Elder Statesmen implies that they're content to go along with this. As to its morals and ethics, lately, much of CN questions they actually have any.
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I hope this new goverment will end the bad streak of publicity ODN has had the last couple of weeks.
Certainly worked for Polar...oh, wait.
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I did not mean to convey any sort of threat. Merely, I'm pointing out that the Grand Global Alliance charter is written by GGA members, applied to GGA members, and enforced by GGA members. The determination of our Elder Statesmen who enforce the charter goes beyond the court of public opinion about whether or not the charter was violated. In terms of Chivalry, I have felt that my members have been respectful on these forums. If you feel that any posts were anything but respectful, link me to them and I will deal with them (it's possible that I missed them). Also in terms of stooping to Vox's level, we'd have to go a LOT lower
Again, whether or not a rule is broken is not my call. The Elder Statesmen have the final say on whether or not a rule in the charter was broken. They have in the past interpreted the actions of members of all ranks to be in violation, and dealt with accordingly. I have my faith in them that they will make the right call in this case.
I'm sure it's in your Elder Statesmen's best interest to say a rule was broken if they're the ones breaking it. Thus, I expect their stance to remain the same, especially inasmuch as it would be a step in making GGA more respectable, and they seem to be avoiding that at all costs.
And to address your first sentence, if the GGA is as much an alliance as Vox is, this announcement (like so many of your alliance/group's threads) is completely obsolete, and the OP is a liar.Or you know, the OPs post was satirical. I mean believe or not people do post non serious posts in this forum.It seems to me that the original post was intentionally, satirically mocking GGA, and not necessarily serious in its content...though, frankly, the way this back-and-forth has been going, it seems to have more and more validity as time goes on.
I never admitted to spying or anything of the kind. If I said you had pretty eyes even if you don’t think you do I would still feel that way.I have just come to accept the fact that Vox think that because I asked some people that are part of the Vox movement who is in chard of various departments in this movement that I have spied on them. Think what you like I think you are wrong.
As for Vox Populi not recognizing the GGA as an alliance, I say good for you. Think what you like, we don’t care what you think or how you feel.
The movement that is Vox Populi in our eyes is insignificant at best and not worth our thought. The only worth Vox has is as a tech far for our members and will continue to remain as such as long as the Vox movement continues to oppose and tries to oppress the beliefs of the GGA and our allies.
As for the argument, is Vox Populi an alliance? We don’t see you as one and you don’t see us as one. What you think you are and what we think we are is really all that is important to these two groups and our respective allies.
Why should you care so much what we think you are? I know the GGA for one does not need your validation to feel special and loved. I’m sorry if at some point in the forming of the Vox movement you felt a need for our recognition of you as an alliance, and now feel rejected because we don’t see you as you see yourself. In time the pane of rejection will go away and you will all become less bitter and be able to smile again.
Personally, I see both as alliances. Vox is an abnormally chaotic one, granted, and it's understandable that "government level dealings" with them are awkward, which leads to frustration in the more typically-structured alliances. GGA is a moral embarrassment of an alliance, and while I'm sure it has its share of decent members, I'd honestly recommend they start shopping for new homes before this one burns down, because I can't see it lasting too awfully long, even as a puppet, if it keeps embarrassing itself so consistently.
As to spying, the logs (the wording of which you didn't refute) seem to me to read that you were using a mixture of threats and bribes to acquire private information in a devious and covert manner. Regardless of whether you could have gotten this information by directly asking in public (OOC: IRC), this is the manner you chose to employ. Seems to me this is only interpretable as hiring a spy. Some have claimed it's "interrogating a prisoner," but that reasoning is terribly faulty. If the person is a prisoner, how can they freely go back to their base and get information?
Fact is, ironchef, as long as you and you alone are deciding, it's an embarrassment to GGA. At the very least, the other Triumvirs should have you stand down for a bit while they investigate it. Personally, I'd strip you of rank at the very least. Even if they conclude that your action wasn't spying as such, it was certainly borderline enough to question having you in a leadership position. Sorry if this comes off as an attack, but I can't see a way to word it where it isn't going to sound hard on you.
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Yeah, I understand that. My main concern is this bunch of guys called 'Mods' who don't like it when we talk too much about OOC. They scare me.
OOC: Oh, just be sure to put the letters by it, and you should be okay, as long as you don't go completely overboard.
Tressel
in Alliance Politics
Posted
OOC: Well, to be fair, any NCAA team that does any good is immediately overrated, so since OSU has done pretty well in the past few years, they've had little choice in the matter, have they? I'm pretty sure I heard someone on ESPN say Alabama could beat the (NFL) Lions, the other day, which, even as bad as the Lions are, is clearly ridiculous.
OOC: As well as Michigan's doing lately, they'd probably jump at only losing the National Championship a couple of times.