[Ravyns announcement regarding Ex-member Fascist Stalin]

To any raiders within range of anyone that small:

good hunting.

[Looking for an old War Horse]

I've been watching this thread with interest but this comment struck me. Isn't Vox supporting people who don't tow the party line? Just because you're allies doesn't mean you have to agree. Not everyone who allies to NPO sells their soul.

There are others, such as those who the NPO have wrongfully attempted to drive out of the game (FAN), those who are just as irritated with the state of the game (as you've mentioned), and lastly people who just want Cybernations' major alliances to change in one way or another.

[Vox Populi and the Global Terror phenomena]

As for your view of Pacifican war tactics... well... you clearly don't know much about Pacifican war tactics. Just because we usually have numbers on our side doesn't imply that that's all we have. As far as I have seen we retain the most sophisticated military structure on Planet Bob.

True, they don't simply have a meatshield.

It's a well funded meat shield, nearly always supported by a few hundred or thousand One Vision and Continuum meat shields.

So, unsophisticated sledgehammer tactics are the ones that come to mind.

As for the 'sophisticated military structure' I'd never have guessed that you would be the only ones who had millitary leaders commanding groups of normal nations. How inventive.

OOC: and of course there's the abuse of the game's programming.

[A Global Alliance and Treaty Organization Announcement]

Congrats GATO, it's a shame you're still celebrating this under NPO rule, but congrats none the less.

[Cybernations Awards of 2008]

Seeing NPO win best diplomatic team really kills what could have been some good awards.

Indeed, none the less I feel that the majority of the awards were well deserved.

[War or Peace]

I prefer war for both it's benefits and also the fact that once in a while you have to shell someone far too $@y or arrogant for their own good into the ground.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

I guess you really didn't have enough straw, President ShinRa -- you had to venture out into completely unrelated subjects to try and gather some more.

In any case, you are, as usual, incorrect.

One... two... three.

Hm, three insults in the into to that post. I guess I hit a nerve.

I named one former LUE leader and one former coalution leader. The LUE leader had already posted in the thread and agreed with my thesis. The coaluetion leader who had been posting in agreement with me turned out not to have joined until after the war -- though he did have access to a large number of documents that he found in agreement with me. An easy mistake to make and an irrelevant one to the correctness of my position. Speaking of irrelevant, that's what this topic is to this thread.

But to my memory you named both of them as being LUE leaders and continued from there.

And considering that you chose to post a paragraph to reply to something supposedly irrelevant and unimportant, well I suppose you do not understand the meaning of ‘quit while you are winning.’

Also, I hardly regard your position as being ‘correct’ as there is not one single paper I have read of yours which does not contain some of the most bias views upon the internet, with the continuing subtext of ‘NPO FTW LULZ’

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

How can you prove that you are really President Shinra?

*Engages Pacifican Logic*

I am because I say I am, there you go it's proven.

Now what about you?

They were originally posted by Electron Sponge out of anger (leads to the dark side, don't you know).

I’m just trying to make sure this doesn’t turn into a repeat of the ‘The Great Patriotic War and You,’

you know the thread, where you posted about things you had no evidence of and gave names LUE leaders, one of whom didn’t turn up, and the other turned out not to have been a member of the LUE at all but a historian.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

My first post was on the previous page, it doesn't take a great stretch of the memory. Additional evidence is provided in said post. The date stamp on the wiki proves it.

What about the logs, can you prove they have not been constructed? do you have screenshots?

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

I'm just going to point out every time one of you guys criticize an argument and the person presenting it without tackling the argument itself.

Rather than attempt any coherent sentence containing any remote form of intelligence or argument, I shall use a point so bold and simple even you should be able to understand it-

IRONY

As far as the rest goes (the 'publicly relinquishing control' ad nauseum), I already debunked it in my very first post in the thread.

I doubt that anyone will actually remember that.

It is also worth noting that the essay was written (including the second edition) before the logs became public, and so as well as that provided within it there is much additional evidence to be acknowledged in regards to the point you made -- most notably the logs I quoted earlier.

Can you produce this attitional evidence? can you confirm in any way that the essay was written before the logs became public?

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

May I ask what the point to this argument is. Vox is an alliance of disgruntled players who feel the game is tipped to far in one direction. They believe the game needs to be rebalanced and that the current power structure is ruining the game. (at least that is what I have perceived if im wrong sorry). Why would you care what day they hold elections on as your alliance tends to ignore them and not recognize them anyway. There here having fun so why 18 pages of a stupid argument.. Just wondering

That... is the first truly smart thing I have heard all day,

thank you.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

Of course if someone makes a point, Vox doesn't care anymore. I thought you guys still live in the state of constant revolution and self-evaluation.

Here and now is the time to do exactly that.

Well, for one thing my AA is Blakes 7 not Vox in case you hadn’t seen it, I’d prefer you not to get the two confused.

Edit for ShinRa:

You walk out of line. You cry about the injustices of NPO. You post propaganda against our allies and for Vox.

Because, quite frankly we have a reason and a right to do so. If the NPO was to stop making ‘injustices’ then I would have no reason to bring them up or create propaganda about them would I?

The Count here meanwhile had simply joined a few weeks ago and has non stop made baseless arguments without references to previous events and has apparently not even bothered to read half the arguments or points made.

He is doing no different. If I tell him to shut up, will you follow suit? At least West of Eden had valid arguments. Calm down dude, have a smoke.

Thanks but I prefer whiskey. As for shutting up, I would have no reason to argue against NATO or him if he was to stop posting would I? now other alliances, I can’t make the promise to other alliances as I know Pacifica would break the ‘truce’ very quickly. But if Count da Silva stops posting in this thread and insulting Vox Populi and it’s allies, then I shall stop replying to his comments.

Ah, well be sure to stop by my new thread where I more fully discuss things.

You seem to be having a slight misunderstanding here, all you’ve done is create one very big flamebait, all of it baseless and referring to points you have not followed up on or even attempted to find evidence of.

Quite frankly I’m amazed that anyone other than Josef Thorne was able to produce such a large scale insult. But for the fact (as much as I hate to say this) the ‘hater’ did his ones with far more style.

Oh my, Vox pumps out propaganda by the boatload, but I come along and turn your media tactics against you and you want me to "shut up." Thats rich.

I quote this post as a defense, as I agree with it for the most part:

Agree with them or not, for the most part the arguments from Vox are at least sincere and defended because they believe them to be true. You, on the other hand, just oppose for the sake of opposing and add a smattering of smug and good old-fashioned brown-nosing to try and hide the fact you have nothing relevant to say at all.

OOC: Indeed, it's one of my favorite shows. Unfortunately, Vox Populi is not much like the browncoats.

OOC: Let me understand this, you can find absolutely no comparisons between two groups of individuals who have both banded together in an attempt to retain their freedom against a much larger and better armed force who seeks to “unite all under heaven” by military force for those who refuse to join.

None, what so ever.

Your blindness is almost strangely admirable.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

A good philosophy is advancing civilization and defeating barbarism; If you're alliance govt, protecting and allowing the rulers who trust you with their nations and their prosperity the opportunity develop their nations to the max of their potential -- after all the people of those nations trust said rulers with their lives.

So, NATO is right, and Vox Populi is wrong.

NATO stands for civilization, life, growth, love and prosperity

Vox is an alliance of death and destruction

This is an honest question here, are you the result of twelve generations of very intense inbreeding, related or a man known as Baldric, or simply a reroll placed here in a very strange attempt to discredit a small alliance?

You still haven’t gotten it into your head that no one cares for your opinion anymore.

You walk into a thread, disregard all counter arguments, history relating to the formation of Vox Populi, or apparently any historic event whatsoever.

All you’ve done here and now is state a small paragraph of barely relevant information then state that we stand for death and destruction while NATO stands for prosperity.

Quite frankly, I couldn’t care less about NATO.

If you want to live that way then fine, do it. Just shut up, stop posting propaganda posts for NATO and against Vox Populi, and don’t cry when the NPO finds a reason to curb stomp you when you walk out of line.

Also, that last point is partially true, much more so than your previous statements.

Vox does stand for death and destruction, the death and destruction of those who have wronged it’s members and those who have removed freedom from the game by abusing the MDP web.

OOC: Also, have you ever watched Firefly? the position of the protagonists along with the Unification War might help you to understand one of the many reasons we are fighting against the NPO and it’s allies.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

If course I get the joke, ES. It's you.

B

I believe that the traditional Pacifican response to this would be a few pages of text relating to the theme of 'rubber and glue'

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

Pun intended?

Heh, I'll let you be the judge of that.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

I think that is what Vox wants, a 2-pole cyberverse.

And I can see no reason not to have another superpower within Bob, it would help iron out many issues found today such as the prevention of the bloated government of Pacifica using it’s unrivaled power within bob to do whatever it wanted and find reasons for it later on, promptly followed up by a few rants by various members, insults and more than likely a few essays by Valadimir upon how they were right and the enemy was wrong.

It would also give the opportunity for oppressed alliances such as FAN to at long last start growing again with the possibility of them joining the other superpower, and politics would also become politics rather than masses of trolling, insults and flamebaits.

Much like it was before the NPO Empire (or rather the NPO and it’s ‘allies’) took almost total control of this game.

Of course it would take another hideously powered 'unstoppable juggernaut' to rival the NPO's ability to abuse politics, various 'war elements' (OOC: programming), and it's meat shield of money, nations, and MDP/MAP allies...

OOC: Admin, are you interested in taking on One Vision?

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

Yay NPO, anyone want to see how many negative NPO member responses that this thread generates within 24 hours? My guess is 38.

I'll say at least 42.

Anyway, I'm glad to see Vox Populi is staying in contact with the rest of Bob.

[Serious Question about Francoism]

Long story short, Francoism is like Scientology;

Those outside the order will get bugger all but pain from it, it makes no sense and it's a simple excuse for the Orders to do whatever they want and gain more power.

Those on top are the only people who truly benefit from it.

Those inside the Orders seem consider it to be a religion*. So more or less the same thing, just made up by people wanting to truly feel superior.

*and before any of you start, I consider it to be a fake religion (a cult.) I'm not putting it on par with Christianity or Buddhism.

[Announcement from the Clerk of the NPO]

Well damn that's alot of tech.

Correction, a lot of tech looting.

Very little of it is actually of NPO origin, they’ve just found excuses to steal it.

[Announcement from the Clerk of the NPO]

if the leadership was so talented, why did the Coalition win against Polaris? truly talented leadership wouldn't have put them in a position where so many alliances wanted Polaris dead in the first place.

- Polar and Pacifica begin to have different views

- Polar's allies begin to abandon it

- Coalition makes an all out attack upon Polar

Ultimatly, the coalition answers to one person (as does One Vision,) the NPO. What the NPO wants the coalition does namely because few alliances want to directly be against or face the NPO's army of MDP/MAP allies.

[Announcement from the Clerk of the NPO]

I never troll.

That depends upon your opinion. However, I do congratulate you for not running like Vladimir when being pressed for examples and evidence so that does show you are putting some effort into this.

This allows the government to eject whomever they please, rendering the 'protections' of Article 2 moot.

Yes I am capable of reading thank you.

But you do appear to be over generalizing. This states that any nation may be ejected while the later article is purely focused upon certain stated ones such as Senators and not simply the general public.

If a spy or particularly unsavory member of vox primus is wrecking havoc in Vox Populi’s headquarters I fail to see why the leaders of the alliance should not be allowed to eject them instantly.

#3 is toothless because the 'government' has the authority to remove any one at any time, allowing the government to eject members who would vote to overturn any policy of the Senate.

But by simply ignoring this policy and ejecting the senator it would be betraying it’s own statement and the public backlash from the alliance would most likely be more harmful than beneficial, and would give a negative PR for whoever enacted the ejection.

#4 is an impossibly high threshhold to remove an individual in the leadership, especially given the two month time frame for reelecting Senators. It effectively ensures that a Senator will serve a full term, no matter how unpopular, because it will always be easier to let him be voted out than removed.

Given the number of senators, I doubt that this would be the case. And if you stated as before that they were highly unpopular then would the majority of the senate not turn against them?

#5 is another one trumped by the Article 1 provision that allows removal at any time for any reason. Anyone who offers to second or third a motion could be expelled, rendering their vote moot. Hardly democratic.

You keep coming back to Article 1 as if it is the only real point you have in this. Interesting.

However, Article 1 did state that this would be enacted by the government and as you stated if this were relating to a vote within the alliance then suspicions would surely rise and accusations would most likely be brought to bare.

The Senate can remove those it doesn't like. The Senate can do whatever it wants and can quash any dissent through removal of members. And when a vacancy exists, the Senate - not the people - make the replacement. How hard is it to hold an election?

Why give the Senate that kind of authority, and make it so difficult for them to be overruled?

You seem to simply be throwing insults and blind accusations here rather than having any real basis upon the Article itself. When you are ready to specifically discuss the elements of the article than to state one massive piece upon ‘The Senate can remove those it doesn't like’ I shall debate upon you with this.

I also note that the first section of the article relates to the people a senator would have the most activity and interaction with. Is there any specific reason it should not be their choice?

This is actually the most interesting of the articles, because of Paragraph 5 - the Voice of God has a veto over the Senate on any issue he wishes, and the beto can only be superseded by a unanimous vote of the Senate.

However, the Voice of God, himself, is a member of the Senate. As stated in the Article 2, which says "The Senate shall compose of 5 members, with 1 member being the leader as expressed in Article IV." It seems ludicrous that the Voice of God would veto a Senate proclamation and then vote against himself in order to override his veto.

The Charter is clear, given its construction, that the Voice of God is a Senator, chosen from his "Senate peers" and thus the veto override language is moot. This gives him unilateral control over the alliance for a two month minimum where nothing he does can be challenged. That's hardly democratic.

As I said before, this charter does not embody the spirit of the popular revolution rhetoric I have seen expounded from a number of Vox members.

B

I was somewhat suspicious about that last statement of an unanimous vote myself, but I would suggest that you speak to someone directly relating to this about this article.

Seriously, some examples, please? Something???

As you asked so politely:

The GATO-1V war and the inFANtile war are both major examples of this. Both had little standing military, one was under the protection of the NPO itself (which had become demilitarized) and the other was much more focused upon trying to just get on with their lives (OOC: enjoy the game) than become a threat to the NPO.

On both occasions the NPO had attempted (is attempting) to drive these people out of the game, and in one case where that failed they simply chose to hold the alliance hostage.

[Announcement from the Clerk of the NPO]

Ruin the game for you? Maybe. Ruin the game for me? No. (heh)

OOC: And also every man and woman who wishes to enjoy the game and not turn it into a highly competitive curb stomping competition.

Anywayz, they are cool because they are good at what they do, and they are funny. Straight up G kinda cool.

They are cool because they beat the living !@#$ out of random communities on whims.

I’ll have to remember that’s how you regard them in the future.

Not sure what u mean. Don't they offer new members protection, order and growth? How is that playing them for fools?

And then they use them as one very big meat shield in wars, and kick a few of them out when they are of no more use.

Playing people for fools is like pretending to be a revolution when u arent.

People fighting against a greater power who they believe are wrong, and that there is a far better way of doing things… are not a revolution.

Interesting.

Went off point to make a shot at NPO. I'm startin to see tha pattern here!

No, I went of to state a fact. Had I wanted to make a ‘pot shot’ I would have quotes Blackadder.

[Announcement from the Clerk of the NPO]

Actually, I'm mo confused than anything. I've yet to see those beliefs defined or backed by rational discourse.

Some of us don't require sledgehammer tactics to prove our points and ideals.

You also appear to be ignoring or missing the key point of the alliance he is part of.

[Announcement from the Clerk of the NPO]

Whoa, hold off, I am a member of NATO. I just got the NPO flag thar cause they are so cool.

I recall being threatened with perma ZI for that once. I'll be interested to see if they take the came action against you.

I also fail to see how wannabe stalinists who quite happily ruin games they join are 'cool.'

Ambitious and backstabbing !@#$%^&*, perhaps but not 'cool.'

No, difference is they are honest about it.

So, they've admitted for playing all of the NPO as fools?

What makes it better? The fact that an "illusion of freedom" makes peeps feel better about it? All that does is consolidate power less efficiently; as someone said its a step toward full authoritarianism.

That depends upon your perspective. An added bonus of an illusion is that you don't have to prove you're authoritarian by curb stomping an alliance incapable of fighting back (with I might mention, half of the armed forces of Bob holding their hand) and will allow a few people to simply get on with their lives.

And you don’t have those rather annoying patrols boot marching along every street in ‘Francograd.’

Cute.

If you say so.

[Announcement from the Clerk of the NPO]

The Vox Dei is basically able to control tha outcome of the elections, since he has both admin forum status and electoral oversight responsibilities.

The same could go for any actions of your Viceroys within GATO should they actually decide to ask the general public of their personal tech farm about any decisions, or try to make any apparently democratic governmental actions.

And are you denying that none of your leaders within the New Pacific Order forums have admin status?

Not one single person with an opinion upon who should win a pole with an admin status?

All that really stops him is his own personal sense of ethics n morals,

I fail too see how this changes anything. Any decision within the NPO, GGA, IRON or any other alliance is ultimately decided by the “personal sense of ethics n morals” of a few people.

In essence, all you are suggesting here is that Starfox is betraying his own beliefs.

I'd say that was an insult.

but he has tha ability to perpetrate and secure his power and appoint tha equivalent of Imperial Officers who willin to obey his word,

At least it would be an illusion of freedom, even IF he was to betray every single thing he stood for and every last member of the alliance he helped found it would ultimately be better than any dictatorship lead alliance giving it’s general populous no real voice in matters.

see what I sayin?

No, I see what you are slurring.