Sefarst
-
Posts
222 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Gallery
Posts posted by Sefarst
-
-
If you expect such a blitz, you should take it up with Pacifica's Leadership, though you might also be rewarded with a similar attack on the members of the Unjust Path fighting against Polaris in the same breath, effectively forcing the New Pacific Order to fight for two sides in the conflict, which is really patently ridiculous.
Don't worry, we know where this is headed.
You cannot reasonably expect a rational alliance to bend over backwards and fight itself to honor conflicting treaties.I expect a rational alliance to honour it's treaties to the best of its ability. As I have all ready stated a dozen times, the NPO is not doing that as they stand in clear violation of the only treaty committment they have left with us (that is, again, barring a midnight blitz
).The New Pacific Order has done the best that it can for you by respectfully bowing out and choosing to honor its committment to peace with you until the treaty expires. The least you could do for them in return is to accept that they may disagree with you, and may yet even fight you, but that they at least respected you enough to end their treaty with you honorably first before engaging you.But they haven't, THAT is the whole point.
-
Interesting point, though I doubt there exists any precedent for forcing an alliance to honor the terms of a treaty it is in the process of dissolving. And, as other posters such as El Bruc have made clear, Polaris's move could also be construed as dissolving the Drinking Buddies agreement immediately by their actions, but Pacifica does not go with that logic, instead choosing to formally withdraw from the treaty.
I believe the understanding in CN legal precedence is that when one is cancelling a treaty, its terms requiring the cancelling party to act in a certain way are waived, but the terms requiring said party NOT to act in a certain way are not. In this case, the precedence would require Pacifica not to engage either GOONS OR the New Polar Order in any way, but the conflicting treaty could likewise not be used to force the New Pacific Order to act for either side either, as that, too, is a conflict of the treaty.
All of this is irrelevant. The treaty is still in effect. I need to find a precedent of an alliance honouring its treaties? What on earth are you talking about?
Pacifica would not be forced to engage GOONS or NpO in any way and they could still honour the treaty. Unless maybe I should expect an update blitz tonight by the NPO on all of the non-treatied attackers on GOONS?
-
Our Emperor has spoken.
Choice about our treaties has been made, respectfully and honorably.
Those long standing members of alliances who fought whit us in previous wars, and shared a bond of friendship whit us, I hope that one day you will fully understand the hardness of this decision and situation we were put in, and I hope that you can find it, some day, to respect our decision, decision which HAD to be made here one way or the other as we respect the treaties held until the end by honoring their notification of cancellation time.
Those who joined alliances here in question, last week, or some other minor time, and never actually bleed whit us or fight whit us, but against us, or pretending false neutrality, your words are empty and your flames are irrelevant as you are irrelevant for this discussion. Please, just leave this discussion to those who actually shared and carried the treaties that are now canceled.
This hurts most coming from you, Branimir. What would La Famiglia say?
-
You are correct about that point about the AoA. Perhaps it is an oversight on NPO's part and they omitted that treaty from their list of cancellations in error. Perhaps someone should point that out to them. However, I was under the understanding that the AoA agreement had evolved into the Initiative, and thereby was dissolved, but I could be mistaken.
Nope, it's still in effect, that was one of the main points in the OP.
And how is the NPO not honoring the timetable of the Drinking Buddies agreement? Please explain this point to me, I may yet concede it to you if you are correct.There's 4 days left on this treaty. They are bound by the treaty to come to our aid. NPO has decided that it will not assist us in that matter because they say they have a conflict of interest after having signed so many other treaties. There are, however, alliances currently attacking GOONS that the NPO has no conflict of interest with, that they have signed no MDPs or MADPs with, but they are still refusing to act on it.
-
I am not making any value judgements as to which side NPO should or should not have supported at this time. I am simply commenting on the fact that, in honorably cancelling their treaties, they have honored their words to a proper, just end, and when those treaties properly expire, they will then honor other treaties that they have signed. My counter - point to you was that that comment about the IRC room was distortion, and should not have been made in this epic thread without proof to back it.
And you seem to be missing the fact that they did NOT honour their words to a proper, just end. The AoA binds them to attack the NTO at this time.
As for Legion's actions, I do believe Moldavi, the author of that treaty, just made a point about them a few posts above this. I will let his words speak to my point about Legion's not honoring their treaties versus the NPO honoring theirs, even if that means having to cancel some to honor others.Having to violate some, you mean. And all Moldavi said was that the Legion did not honour the time table and, as I've all ready pointed out, the NPO is not honouring the time table of the Drinking Buddies Act.
Edit: Wrong middle letter.
-
Pacifica responds to aggression with aggression. It has always been so, it will always be so.
You are responding to the agression of IRON, GGA, NoV, and NTO by failing to honour a legitimate treaty you signed in good faith.
-
The Legion entered a war and broke their treaty with the NPO with zero regard to the cancellation period set up by the Imperial Accords.
There us a marked difference, I know, I wrote the treaty. Many of those commenting on it here and making such a poor analogy were not even a part of the Cyberverse at the time.
And right now, at this very instant, Pacifica fails to honour the time period set up by the Drinking Buddies Act.
-
nice. so by NPO acts NpO supports and vicea versa...NpO completely supported NPO when Moo was placed back over Ivan...wait..wait...nope, NpO turned their backs on em. mirite?
You're wasting your time. There's no honour or integrity left in Polaris or Pacifica.
9/9/07--The Betrayal.
-
How do you know that they were not in that IRC room trying to talk their friends out of fighting Gen[m]ay so they would not have to choose which MDPs to honor and which to regrettably cancel? Were you there? If so, produce proof or stop making baseless accusations to inflame an already controversial topic. We all know if you cannot produce logs, it did not occur.
If there were making such an argument, they should have stuck to their principles. If that's even the case. If they believed it was wrong to attack GOONS and wanted to maintain their relationship with us, they could have shown the strong and true integrity and stuck by what they believed in.
The choice is between whether or not the NPO is unprincipled and weak or complicit in a vile treason. Accept whichever makes you feel better.
And they have adhered to their word, by cancelling their treaties prior to engaging anyone, something that the Legion did not do in any Great War they participated in - if the Legion had done what the New Pacific Order is doing now, I imagine Pacifica would not have ever complained about Legion's lacking honor.They are bound right now, by their word in the AoA, to come to our aid. They do not becaue those words were meaningless to them. Read Daemon Vower's apology thread.
-
I further want to elaborate on just how ridiculous this argument for not honouring their treaties is. It was the NPO who screamed so loudly and never let Legion forget when they broke their treaty and attacked the Orders in GWI. It's the NPO who has always prided itself on its honour and its adherence to its word. Was this the strategy the whole time? Sign meaningless MDPs and MADPS with anyone and everyone so when a fight finally did break out, you wouldn't have to honour a single one of them?
Regardless of what they may try to say, the NPO is complicit in the attack on GOONS. Waiting seconds before your long time ally is attacked to cancel all your negotiations and treaties with them puts the guilt on their shoulders. The leadership of the NPO sat in an IRC room conspiring with other alliances to accomodate attacks on an ally they've had for over a year.
-
So what you're saying is that NPO should attack their other allies and then turn right around and attack themselves for attacking their allies. A choice was made by Pacifica as to which allies they were to side with. Because of the nature of the web, it would be impossible for them to honor all their treaties at once because they conflict. That is why the difficult decision Moo made was necessary. Just because they chose not to back your alliance doesn't mean that their choice is inherently against the treaties or illegal.
And our point is that they broke their word and betrayed their allies to make that choice. And it IS inherently against the treaties.
If Pacifica has signed so many treaties that it prevents them from honouring their obligations, perhaps they should sit down and rethink their foreign policy? At this point, it seems the MDP web is inherently worthless. Any alliance will just sign treaties with anyone and everyone, then when a fight breaks out and they might have to honour some of those treaties they signed, the call a conflict of interest, pick which side they want to be on and then cancel the appropriate treaties, dropping long time allies.
-
If I were behind then Pacifica would be either completely neutral in this or helping keep others from entering the war. However, since Pacifica has cancled the treaties restricting it from assisting Polaris, being honorable enough to adhere to the cancellation periods therein, there must be some degree of truth and accuracy to what I'm saying. You repeatedly claim "WUT TRUMPS ALL", but if you'll look around you the reality is that it doesn't. WUT trumps only what the parties comprising it wish it to trump. I also doubt everyone thought that. Anybody with common sense would know what I've already harped about twice to you.
But obviously if they needed to cancel the treaty, the other doesn't supercede it. There is one treaty left between the NPO and GOONS that still carries weight, the Drinking Buddies Act. And every minute, the NPO is standing in violation of it. Breaking their words. Maybe that doesn't mean anything to you, but it use to mean something to the NPO.
-
nope. read the first treaty canceled. that would be the Drinking Buddies Act. but continue to try. also, it is called discussion. they probably spent a long while discussing the action needed to take. but i guess GOONS and UJP only wanted NPO as a meatshield much like the rest of WUT.
Wrong, Doch. You are really bad at this. The Drinking Buddies Act is still in force for 4 more days. Each of the days that the NPO does not honor it by attacking NTO will be well documented.
-
no, in the first part i said GOONS thought he was a lapdog and in the second part i said he proved you wrong. please try to actually read what i posted. and thanx for ignoring the part about GOONS threatening Pacifican members. seems they just won't recognize their own wrongdoings.
No, you said, "this also brings to mind all those "conspiracy theories" like GOONS did not want Ivan in charge since they believed he would not follow along like a lapdog." Directly implying that Moo WAS following us around like a lapdog.
And when did you say anything about GOONS threatening Pacifican members?
In case you didn't read it, here's your post one more time:
this also brings to mind all those "conspiracy theories" like GOONS did not want Ivan in charge since they believed he would not follow along like a lapdog. so i guess GOONS will try and coup an ally to make sure the ally stays under GOONish thumb. gee, now i truly believe Harry was sent by GOONS to coup ES. and this just pretty much proves it for me since it is now admitted that GOONS couped Ivan.also, don't you feel like fools. Moo is not a little lapdog you can throw treats too. seems he has a mighty big backbone to me.
-
but yet the official story according to you has changed. GOONS always seemed to state that Moo never bypassed the charter since he was couped. now you are saying that Moo in fact did bypass the charter. i think you need to keep your story straight cuz seems like it can be changed whenever needed to fit whatever GOONS needs to do to ensure that it is the only one coming out looking spotless.
Wrong, I even asked Rebel Virginia to PM me a copy of the NPO charter and I said in one of the OWF threads talking about the issue that the legality of the issue definately seems to raise some doubts, but if the NPO was willing to support him despite that, it was not my place to tell my allies otherwise.
and what war were we trying to drag NPO into? one that GOONS started by threatening members of Pacifica because they thought those members were mods?Are you honestly serious? Were you asleep that whole month? You didn't notice that almost no GOONS "welcomed" Ivan in his little announcement thread he made? We knew full well what his intentions were.
i mean go figure that Ivan would protect members of Pacifica against even her allies. but go figure that those allies saw fit to threaten allies in the first place. didn't GOONS loose a treaty with ODN for this very thing?Are you paying attention? He was provoking a conflict with a perfectly good ally.
-
this also brings to mind all those "conspiracy theories" like GOONS did not want Ivan in charge since they believed he would not follow along like a lapdog. so i guess GOONS will try and coup an ally to make sure the ally stays under GOONish thumb. gee, now i truly believe Harry was sent by GOONS to coup ES. and this just pretty much proves it for me since it is now admitted that GOONS couped Ivan.
also, don't you feel like fools. Moo is not a little lapdog you can throw treats too. seems he has a mighty big backbone to me.
So in the first part of this post, you say GOONS wanted Moo in power because he's a lapdog. In the second part you say he's not a lapdog? That's no way to talk about an emperor.
We had no fear of Ivan, he's just belligerent and was intentionally trying to provoke a major conflict with us. Moo and it would seem most of the Old Guard as well, saw better and overthrew him. We liked the NPO and didn't want to have to fight them for the ego of one person.
-
wow. just wow. now that Moo is not your ally, you change tunes. i could have sworn that it was Ivan who couped according to GOONS and friends. my my. how many times must GOONS change their stories to bad mouth former allies. just wait, if someone in the UJP does something wrong, like say Genmay (hypothetically speaking) wonder how quick it will be that GOONS will say Genmay set up the attacks on BoTS to drag Polaris into a war and that it was all Genmay's fault but GOONS being the "loyal and honourable" ally backed them up.
No, I always believed the official story, that Moo was pressured into stepping down in favor of Ivan. Moo came out and said as much. But there's no doubt that Moo's actions were illegal per the Pacifican charter.
seems that GOONS backs alot of wrongdoings in their time instead of standing up and saying no we will not do that. if Ivan was the actually leader and not couped. does this mean that ES and Ivan are now no longer traitors for couping Moo but instead heroes for being couped by Moo?They were traitors, as I understand, for trying to drag the NPO into a destructive war with its allies that would have left it a smoldering rubble.
-
@Sefarst: GOONS are supporting Ivan now?
Not at all. I support Dilber, personally, as he presided over the most successful time I've seen of the NPO.
But Ivan is basically the embodiement of all the arrogance so many accuse GOONS of having. We learned from the best.
-
seems to work otherwise according to this announcement. tis funny how quickly GOONS changes tunes and stories though.
He just switched one back bone for another, the second being pressure from Sponge.
-
Sponge will be remembered as the Emperor stood up to the Unjust Path and told them, No, we won't stand for your kind any longer. Moo will be remembered as the Emperor who stood by our sisters against the Darkness.
Moo will be remembered as the emperor who couped a sitting emperor in violation of NPO's charter, having to rely on his allies to back his return to power because they didn't feel like fighting a pointless war against the NPO for one man's ego.
And Sponge won't be remembered, he will be stricken from living memory in true Orwellian fashion, something that, all things considered, he will probably appreciate.
-
*edit* for Sef: It's more of an attempt to tear down your arguments, especially those about how you think you're so just for holding to your treaties. Our bullets and tanks will lower your morale. Words just add to the bite.
You're not tearing down any arguments, you're screaming "YOU ARE SO DEAD!!" and we're responding "lol, wut?" Arguing with you does nothing more than entertain me during study breaks.
-
It's not an appeal to force or a case of "might makes right". It's an understood fact of life. The treaty binding the Orders trumps all others. Even WUT. Even Drinking Buddies. AoA. All of it.
Just stop while you're behind. Everyone use to be absolutely positive that WUT trumped all. I was told by Bakunin last night that the NPO holds all of its treaties on the same level which is why it is not acting on any of them.
-
I'm a random troll? Hahah, I've been around this game way longer than any GOONS and many members. Please, don't give me that crap. I can't make predicitions and try to lower battle morale? I guess it's against the rules to state my outcome predicitions. My bad, I should of read the rules back in FEb. '06 when I first started. As much as you don't like my predicitions you know what will happen. The odds are overwhelming, more-so than anyother GW before. This isn't just people not honoring treaties, people just don't like you.
You've been around since February '06? You haven't come far, my friend. The very fact that you think random predictions from a troll like yourself will have ANY effect on GOONS morale shows just how out of touch you are.
-
lawlz. yet i could have sworn Moo is on the throne again not Ivan............. how does that umm... house of cards work again?
edit: does not is.
It works when Moo has GOONS and the Initiative to act as his backbone for him.
).
Official Imperial Announcement
in Alliance Politics
Posted
I recall a precedent GOONS set publically with the NAAC that both would honour their NAPs despite being on opposite sides of a Great War. We honoured the cancellation period for a whole five days, if memory serves. I recall any numbe of our former MADP partners "holding us hostage" and having us attack those whom they believed were their enemies.
Yes they could. That's the agreement that signatory alliances undertake when they vow to defend one another and put a time table on their treaties.