[NADC Withdraws from BLEU Econ]

The fact that Dilber himself confirmed the logs later lends them credibility.

Secondly, it's exactly what ended up happening. There's no reason to take it sarcastically at all, how is there this magic rule that everything Dilber says that looks bad is sarcastic?

Look, I don't see you combatting the actual point at all, but merely trying to poke an irrelevant hole in my argument. Even without the logs, as soon as Polaris's relationship with the NPO became strained, you jumped ship and Echelon followed suit. That's blatant opportunism. Even if you claim that there were other factors, that overshadows anything I could think of and those "other factors" are merely a weak rationalization that it wasn't the root cause.

There's really nothing wrong with opportunism here, the pragmatic survive, it's that simple. There are, however, those that value things beyond pragmatism, those that wish to exude a sense of honor and loyalty and be admired for it. THOSE are the people that find your move despicable.

Lol...if you must know, our relationship with NpO soured a long, long time ago. The way things had been going since before the new year, we had inklings in the backs of our minds that we'd wind up unaligned with them before the next year.

NPO had no part in our desires to distance ourselves from Polar. I can't speak for Echelon, but judging from the responses of Echelon members (particularly their government) that are laughing at your speculations, I feel confident assuming it was similar for them.

And I don't recall Dilber confirming anything beyond that's what he said, not necessarily how he meant it. Nor did I ever say anything negative that he says is sarcasm on his part. He's human, and I'm sure he makes mistakes, but that was not one of them. But hey, he can speak for himself if he feels the need to grace you with his presence.

And if you don't see how the context of the "evidence" of your claims affects your argument's validity beyond being an "irrelevant" poked hole, then you really are far more lost in the sauce than anyone could hope you to be.

The timing of the announcements means nothing without the timing of the ideas being proposed to the bodies in power. The opinions expressed regarding the moves mean nothing out of context. Your lack of knowledge of these things, or more appropriately your lack of willingness to accept the fact that we're not NPO puppets and can and do think and act for ourselves and therefore unwillingness to recognize those factors as being important in determining honor in this situation damages your ability to debate this intellectually.

All the information you have are a few out-of-context quotes that have been misused for purposes of defamation, and the timing of the announcements. You weren't part of the groups that proposed, discussed, and decided on the moves. Therefore, your input and opinions are hardly anything significant to be considered in determining the honor of the moves, as they are full of huge, huge holes that you filled with assumptions of what you've been trained to expect by other detractors of ours, and further warped and altered by your own personal existing bias against us.

Your persistence in pushing your biased analysis is laughable considering it's based on nothing but your dislike and third-hand information.

[NADC Withdraws from BLEU Econ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those statements in a public context would be construed as sarcasm, but they were from a PRIVATE context and were log dumped (De Profundis if I'm not mistaken) and thus if we go THAT deep into context it ends up being more beneficial to my side of the argument.

If you were referring to the fact that people like you and Dilber like to make fun of me and others behind closed doors, I really couldn't care less. This post makes near no sense, so I'm not sure exactly how to take it as a response to mine.

The reason it doesn't make sense to you is because you think location of the comments when they're made matters.

I'm sorry but no one informed us of your magic rule that said no one is allowed to be sarcastic behind closed doors. That's just a stupid notion to even suggest.

And the fact that De Profundis revealed them doesn't prevent them from being misrepresented either. It's called propaganda: you know...things any schmo with an agenda will twist and warp to suit their political needs regardless of their original intended implications.

The fact that you're ignoring all of this is more damaging to your own argument that they mean what you suggest than anything I could ever bring forward.

Edited

[NADC Withdraws from BLEU Econ]

Just to clarify my statements earlier into the context of the current discussion that thread this has devolved into: Those statements were directed at LoSS and NADC, they both were only part of the economic treaty.

MCXA and Echelon, on the other hand, were obviously playing the follower. They saw disunity between the Orders and wanted to jump on the stronger side who welcomed them with open arms. That was made clear from the logs that Grinch posted above (view them in their entirety Grinder, the context doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the content and implications in this discussion.) That was just pure and simple opportunism that weakened BLEU into its current state.

Yeah it does. It's called sarcasm. If you think public attitudes towards NPO escape Dilber or the rest of NPO, you're kidding yourself, and if you don't think that translates into him and others making sarcastic comments ridiculing the ludicrous public defamations you're more clueless than advertised.

And yes, that cluelessness coming to light will only add to the lulz behind closed doors.

[NADC Withdraws from BLEU Econ]

If you do not mind my digressing off topic for a second, but how good of a protecting job will MCXA be doing when the NPO decides they want to roll =WE= because they don't like Master-Debater. And yes, you may quote me on this.

I fail to see a need to answer hypothetical questions aimed at trying to create a rift between MCXA and her allies that it is no mystery a person such as your lowly self are trying to weaken.

I'm not here to play faux populi's reindeer games. Get back on the non-existent topic at hand or don't bother wasting the calories to type.

[NADC Withdraws from BLEU Econ]

wow what rock to you live under?

As this war shows, BLEU is hardly offensive, heck most signatories dont even follow the defensive part of the treaty. If anything its just an economic treaty. And this isnt the only war in which BLEU was involved but signatories didnt jump in. Nice try though at the propaganda

As a former signatory of Bleu, I feel it is my place to tell a member of one of MCXA's protectorates when they're wrong and have no idea what they're talking about. The only protectorate that knows any better than you what happened in Bleu is EDEN because their founders are former heavyweights of the MCXA government scene.

The funny thing is though that they seem to be the one protectorate we have that doesn't butt its head into business of ours that isn't also theirs.

[NADC Withdraws from BLEU Econ]

^^^An out-of-context word and an out-of-context quote prove nothing.

So, you and Echelon leave BLEU and create this "lack of unity", but then use the lack of unity you just created as justification for leaving BLEU? You remind me of a dog chasing it's own tail.

And seriously, you're not fooling anyone. We know why you left BLEU. Your best argument in this case is "we didn't want people to think we were puppets, so instead we removed all doubt."

You may think whatever you want, but the bottom line, hizzy, is that you were not there at the time of legislation made to resign from Bleu, nor to join 1V, and have no idea of when either occurred in relation to the other, nor the reasons used to come to the decisions to do both by either the MCXA or Echelon.

You can try to paint us into a corner all you want, but eventually the paint will dry and we'll just walk out anyway.

I suggest you take your emperor's lead and stop focusing on defaming anyone and start focusing on rebuilding your glory.

[A Mostly Harmless Birthday]

What kind of towels are acceptable?

I prefer bathmats to towels...but MCXA already knows that...

[NADC Withdraws from BLEU Econ]

The NpO has no puppets, I hold no strings and to suggest otherwise is an insult to the other puppets.

The NADC is free to do whatever suits them best. Their membership of BLEU was something they sought and now no longer value, their call to make.

I agree with your second paragraph as it applies to anybody. I just said what I said as a matter of perspective. NpO may have not seen it that way, but it felt like it on our end.

[A Mostly Harmless Birthday]

Party on, MHA.

[NADC Withdraws from BLEU Econ]

Considering not even all of Bleu came to defense of Polar in this last war, and 2 major signatories leaving since the war started, one can hardly be arguing any sort of true unity within. The lack of unity should be apparent in the moves by both Echelon and MCXA to leave. A group that is united doesn't see 2 of its 3 most powerful members leave within such a short period.

There was friction there, and anyone looking for the source should look no further than the 2 former members' primary target in this last war. It's many of the same fools calling foul on MCXA and Echelon now that, prior to their departure from Bleu, were crying about how every Bleu alliance was really just an NpO puppet, and NpO certainly wasn't making any true effort internally in Bleu to quell such sentiments.

So it's either stay with NpO, being treated like a puppet and be trolled for being a puppet when we're not puppets, or leave Bleu and stand up to NpO doing wrong by us and get trolled for being "bad allies."

Damned if you do, damned if you don't in this situation...I'd rather keep my dignity: it's better to be called something you're not than to be called that and treated like it on top of it.

[Imperial Announcement]

Grub said the third-party opinions don't matter, Coalition leaders have said third party opinions don't matter. The terms are what they are, and Polar is quite capable of upholding their end, and I trust they will, just the same as the Coalition is able and willing to do on their end.

Third-party persistence in this thread is purely for the lulz at this point, as is their armchair quarterbacking about what should have happened and what they predict/assume is happening.

So, with that in mind, I'd like to call upon all Coalition members in this thread to join me...

[Imperial Announcement]

You were certainly willing participants, seeing as you were in BLEU until you left when the NPO called. You only didn't help in the management and planning because you didn't have the capabilities to do so.

The truth, my little faux populi, is that the MCXA really had no interest in any of those wars. Our only relation to them was that we were in Bleu, and that had we not participated, the NpO would have targeted us with whispers of "bad ally." We rarely had a hand in planning anything, and often times found out we were going to war the day of the war when NpO handed us a target list without consulting us first on anything.

It's one of the reasons we left Bleu, which occurred before we were invited to 1V. I know: I was on the High Council that voted on both moves.

However, your claim that we are guilty for managing curb stomps as NpO is accused of having done, and then saying we were left out of managing them because we were incapable of doing so is a contradiction. If you're going to launch false claims our way, please pick a story and stick with it. It's less fun when you disprove yourself by catching yourself in a lie.

[Imperial Announcement]

I remember MCXA in many of those.

Ah, yes, but how many did the MCXA initiate, call for, or carry out the planning for? NpO managed and coordinated a large chunk of their side of every one of those conflicts.

I have not and will not argue the surrender terms ever. Almost every post in this thread since it was started is irrelevant and almost every opinion on the fairness, reasoning, justification or otherwise is merely chest thumping by various groups.

The reality is this, one group believes they are right, another group disagrees, third parties rarely matter.

Starfox and doitzel: told you so.

[Imperial Announcement]

Vandel if you are going to talk about curbstompings of a whole alliance I think you better look at some of your other allies for examples of that. Polar has not organized a curbstomping on an alliance. And don't come back with what about NADC? When they violated terms only those that violated the terms was attacked with the exception of Emperor Charles due to the lack of compliance of the alliance. Polar may have taken part in curbstompings because some of Polar's allies asked for Polar to come along but Polar didn't organize one.

While they may have not been the ones to produce the CB for all of their wars they've fought, they did plan and manage almost all of their own wars, especially in Bleu.

FIST, GUN, CSN/IAA/GATO/USN, FPI, NADC (both times despite what you want to think), FAN, UJW, and CIN.

That's definitely not all their wars, but all of their wars have been total curb stomps. Most wars are, though.

[Imperial Announcement]

This could be amusing.

[Imperial Announcement]

You both seem to be under the impression that I'm worreid about the damage caused to my nation in the war. I'm not. The only reason I cited the damages inflicted upon my nation was to point out that the value of my share of the reparations will be far less than the value of the infrastructure and technology lost. The same applies to almost all my comrades who fought in this war, whether they lost more than me or not. What you should've taken from my previous posts in this that Polar has gotten off pretty easily in terms of reparations, not that I'm worried in the slightest about the small amount of damage caused to my nation.

http://www.mcxa-cross.com/index.php?showtopic=17678

Stay off of here.

[Imperial Announcement]

This is not the MCXA that I know.....

You can rest assured we're kind of miffed at those gloating and whining in this thread from our ranks too. They're being dealt with behind closed doors.

This kind of bad form isn't what we're about.

[Imperial Announcement]

Hahahahahahahahaha.

You've made my night. A member of a One Vision alliance saying this to me is just too rich. Oh, the humanity!

Not a statement as a 1V representative.

Just advice from one person to another.

[Imperial Announcement]

Sorry, but no you did not kindly tell us that our opinion's didn't matter. You discouraged us from posting saying this thread was only for proof that the terms are agreed on, and that our opinion's don't matter at all. I don't know, that doesn't seem like it's saying we should be speaking.

I don't recall being offended that my opinion doesn't matter to your side, either, as you guys generally don't care what anyone thinks, as long as they get free tech out of it.

That is the only practical purpose of this thread that has any impact on anything. Opinions expressed are allowed, but are insignificant.

Unless I explicitly say that no one has any right to speak or tell people not to speak, then I have not discouraged anyone from speaking.

By pointing out the happy fact that no one's opinion here really matters or impacts anything, I'm pointing out what amounts to merely a coincidental truth, and am in no way denying anyone's right to speak.

Point out where I said anything but that your opinions are moot, in regards to your speaking and your rights to do so. It hasn't occurred.

My lack of encouragement does not equate to discouragement. There is a null center of indifference there between the two.

Your venomous last sentence is also moot.

[Imperial Announcement]

I like how you whine about others putting words in your mouth then do it to me.

I said that unless you're claiming authority in a party affected by these terms, your opinion is moot. You continued to disagree that your opinion is moot, but made no denial that you're claiming said authority for the leaders of MK or NpO.

Either your voice is moot or you're claiming authority for these parties. Pick one. Either one is moot to me.

Voices matter. Opinions matter. I state them to point out inconsistencies and inequities to sway the opinions of others. That is the point of discourse. If you cannot argue my points based on their merits then we have nothing further to discuss.

That's your opinion that they always matter, and it's your right to speak as such. I never denied any of that, nor did I ever attempt to.

My opinion is that in some cases, yes, opinions do not matter. Again, it's my opinion versus yours. Opinions are neither right nor wrong.

Well I'm glad you acknowledge you're not much of anyone.

Cute. The fact is I'm bored and have insomnia. I could go let the dog out, which would eat up about 10 minutes because I have to be out there with her to keep the nocturnal mountain predators from thinking she's an easy prey (they don't like to risk fighting 2 animals even if they could easily win...dunno why, but whatever), but really I do enjoy a good meaningless debate. I like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Why would I do that? So you can demand their expulsion and ZI? They're private for a reason. I say they have and either you believe me or you don't. Any proof I offer you'll just dismiss as fake anyway, I'm tired of playing that game. I've demonstrated my integrity sufficiently that anyone with an open mind will acknowledge I am probably not lying. That's good enough for me.

Don't claim things you refuse to prove when called on.

Anyway, the aforementioned pup is walking cross-legged, so I should go let her out, and then head for bed, myself. It's been fun arguing semantics with you gentlemen.

Have a wonderful night, and try not to take yourselves so seriously.

[Imperial Announcement]

How the hell can an opinion even be moot? Shutup for a minute, please.

Anything that is inconsequential is moot, be it a tree, a book, a television show, a color, or yes...even an opinion.

Opinions are incapable of being wrong, but they are perfectly capable of being moot.

Show me where I said you demanded or ordered anything. You asked someone to not post, and discouraged us of voicing our opinion multiple times, saying they don't matter. Let me share something with you, every voice matters.

You said I was telling people they had no right to speak, specifically your protest to me was "just because it doesn't matter doesn't mean I'm not allowed to use my voice." I said no such thing in regards to anyone being allowed to do anything.

I said opinions being expressed were moot, as they often are. I don't understand why, when you admit yourself that your opinion doesn't matter, this is so offensive for you to be told the truth.

Arguing semantics is fun when the definitions of words are on my side.

[Imperial Announcement]

You've discouraged our postings multiple times in this thread alone. I don't really have to put any words in your mouth when you do it yourself.

Show me where I demanded or ordered anything. I made one request in regards to propaganda. No where have I said no one could express an opinion, nor have I requested it. I merely pointed out the fact that your opinions are moot.

Again with the putting of words in my mouth that I did not say.

[Imperial Announcement]

1: there is a difference between expressing an opinion and making false statements to a member of my alliance's protectorate that mislead them into thinking something that not only isn't true, but you have no say in.

2: I asked, I didn't demand.

Justice and its bastardisation by you and your ilk, however, is my business. MK has no bargaining chips and cannot speak up on their own behalf, just as Polar cannot. And so I speak for them.

It is interesting how many people are unable to say what they wish who contact me with thanks for saying what they cannot. I take great pride in my role as the international community's collective conscience.

So...you are claiming sovereign authority over them? Because that's the only way in which your voice on these or those terms matter.

You can stand on your soap box all you want. It doesn't mean anyone's listening.

And as far as people thanking you in private, I doubt it. Proof please.

[Imperial Announcement]

Doitzel, if MK has an issue with the terms they were issued and the people that issued them, they can feel free to take it up with them. You're not MK. Your input into that, as this, is meaningless unless you intend to claim sovereign authority in either case. I was not at war with MK, and I'm merely aware that terms were agreed upon. I don't know what their terms were, nor do I really care, as it is not my business.

I do not recall saying my opinion mattered to the New Polar Order, or your Coalition. However, just because it doesn't matter to them does not mean I am not allowed to use my voice.

You have no right to tell others to not speak.

I never said you or anyone else couldn't voice your opinions. I just pointed out that they are moot.

Feel free to put words in my mouth anytime though. They make it easy to discredit your statements.

[Imperial Announcement]

Everything that is public is the business of everyone. The fact that you discourage public discussion of peace terms disgusts me.

The only thing this should serve for anyone besides the NpO and Coalition are to let everyone know that the war between the two is over, and so that neither side can, at a later point in time, claim that the terms are different than what was agreed upon.

Like it or not, your opinions of the terms are moot. The only opinions that matter are those of the parties that agreed to the terms.