[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

You could also fairly add that their leader and the person you were responding to attacked you because you were argumentative with him here. Interesting response to criticism given the stated goals of open and frank discussion.

Weren't you NATO at some point or something? In either case, it helps to know about what you're talking about. NATO declared war on Vox when we formed.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

The check is actually called voluntary membership. Membership is not compulsory, thus, no checks and balances are needed against "abuse" because members are free to leave. This in itself is a check on the leadership; they do not want to lose their membership by alienating them.

Your argument regarding law can hold no water because, technically speaking, there is no such thing as a noncompulsory or noncoercive law. Which is also why alliance "governments" are a misnomer.

OOC TL;DR: RL law =/= CN "law." /OOC

The vast majority of countries have open borders, ie, voluntary membership. The rule of law has a specified definition, don't try and change it. And by the way, USBR was the one to bring it up, according to him Vox doesn't respect the rule of law. Too bad NPO neither knows what it means nor follows it. Classic case of "know what the word means before you try to use it."

The problem with Vox is I have seen no coherent reasons or explanations or definitions of much of anything, whether regarding Vox's effort or the eebbil continuum.

What would you like an explanation of? PS: We're still trying to get a definition of Francoism, even Ivan has been unable to provide one.

Nor have I seen explicit goals, or how these goals can or will be accomplished. Or any indication that they are even remotely possible. All I see is "we're doing it because it's fun and were 'good guys.'" Which basically makes Vox a "lulz" alliance now doesn't it?

I thought NPO didn't go around destroying alliances randomly? Or have "lulz" alliances been outlawed again?

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

The concept of rule of law does not mean checks and balances against absolute power. It means that no one is truly above the law. The Emperor has the closest thing to plenary authority that exists in the Cyberverse, but even he is subject to the terms of the Charter. It just happens that our Charter is vague enough and he is given sufficient authorities to allow him to do nearly anything he chooses to do, with the exception of amending the Charter itself.

Ok, I think you need to check the definition of the rule of law: "The contrast between the rule of men and the rule of law is first found in Plato's Statesman and Laws and subsequently in Aristotle's Politics, where the rule of law implies both obedience to positive law and formal checks and balances on rulers and magistrates"

As I said, there are no checks and balances in NPO, thus there is no rule of law. As you can tell by the above, you cannot simply write "This is law: the king can do whatever he wants" and say you respect the rule of law.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

So you are contradicting the Voice of God?

I am pretty sure elections were held early (I was not actually there for the first election though), think Nintenderek is wrong on that count. But we all get stuff wrong, right? Like that time you were complaining that you think we do not follow the rule of law and then I made you eat your words because NPO definetely does not follow the rule of law. Remember that, or did you just forget to reply how NPO has checks and balances against absolute power (the very meaning of "rule of law") when your charter states your Emperor has the final word on everything.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

Well, Starfox, you have to admit...it's been a sausage fest for awhile now, with the exception of Kiroky. Now she's gone. We scared all the wimmenz away.

Don't fret, Doitzel is getting a sex change :lol: We have MyValentine too, he's practically a woman.

[Serious Question about Francoism]

There are probably several other conflicting and yet completely correct definitions of Francoism floating around. That doesn't matter. Francoism, as has been stated ad nauseum by some, is not a concrete dogma. It may very well be a dogma of a sort, but it is fluctuating in nature.

I do not propose that I am some great philosopher on that particular subject. I do believe I can speak intelligently and knowledgeably on the concept of Pacifica and the underlying philosophy of the Order as a whole. I can only hope that my attempts to infuse the dogma of Francoism, which is subject to the actuality of the other two, do it some manner of justice.

I'd like to see at least one complete definition. "Francoism is a way to analyse the world" is not a definition unless Francoism and the scientific method are synonymous. A definition applies to one word only (+ synonyms). "Francoism strives for peace, strength and prosperity" is also not a definition. If I said the scientific method strives for accurate predictions of physical phenomena that wouldn't really tell you much beyond its goals. How does the scientific method propose people make accurate predictions, how does Francoism strive for peace, strength and property - and why. I'd like to see a definition where after reading it, I can at least start to predict what Francoism would say on a particular matter. That is a definition. Everything else is vague. If you read a book on the scientific method and then were told to apply it and you did not know how and it was not specified, you would not say that you know what the scientific method means.

[Serious Question about Francoism]

No, what you said was "And the wars that are a direct consequence of what happened in WWII? Like the two wars in Chechnya? Those were not caused by WWII?"

You stated that the two wars in Chechnya were a "direct consequence" of what happened in World War II. I refuted your point by noting that Chechnyan independence has been an ongoing struggle for over a century. There is no way that the two wars in Chechnya you noted were a "direct consequence" of World War II when the fundamental issues that caused them had been occurring at least half a century before World War II.

Each war caused the next. I believe I already explained it. That's generally how wars go.

As amazing as it may seem, neither myself, Vladimir, or any of the other NPO members who like to debate on the forums are able to give 24/7 attention to them. If Vladimir decides that he wishes to respond to you, he will. Otherwise, he won't. Given your unwillingness to accept even the most basic logic from me, I can't imagine he'd want to waste his time trying to explain more to you. He doesn't have the patience and tolerance for nonsense that I do.

Oh, so sorry that your doublethink doesn't fool me. I am sorry to tell you this but I doubt it fools anyone. Do you seriously think that anyone believes NPO strives for peace? PS: It would have sufficed to say that he ran out of responses and thus he decided to leave. That's a good thing, maybe while he's gone, he'll actually redefine Francoism to mean something.

[Serious Question about Francoism]

I did a two second wikipedia search, and there's ample evidence there that the conflicts between Russia and Chechnya regarding Chechnya's autonomy have been going on over a century - for almost 60 years before World War II, with rebellions happening as early as the Russo-Turkish war in the 1870s.

I would love to hear how World War II caused the Chechnyans to want their independence from Russian rule 60 years before that war, and 40 years before the Soviet Union was created.

Did I say that tensions started with WWII? I said that Chechens gave up Russians to Hitler, remember? And you didn't bother to ask why. Guess you found out when you googled it. WWII increased tensions and the two wars since are a continuation of those tensions but since we're talking about wars causing other wars (including the later wars being a continuation) - the caucasian war actually started everything and the tensions have been going on since then because Chechens want to be independent. So as I said, war leads to more war (I did not want to start with the caucasian war because practically nobody has even heard of it).

Again, as I have clearly stated and argued, your belief that all war breeds war is a ridiculous oversimplification

Not my belief. It's the belief of the vast majority of philosophers. To be honest I am not bothered to argue about it any further, anyone who studies philosophy at all is already aware of this and I don't even think it's necessary in this case. One would have to be a moron to believe that the goal of NPO is peace for its members - being in a state of war for over a year (FAN) is not peace. It's also a fact that NPO has participated in more wars than any other alliance. Generally when your goal is peace, you try to avoid participating in every war. Look at GPA, they've been in 1 war thus far but have existed for a long time. Their goal is peace for their members, that I can believe. NPO? Not so much.

PS: What happened to Vladimir? I am still waiting for a response on what Francoism is. As I've previously pointed out "a method of scientific analysis" is not an explanation. You need to include how the analysis is made, and I'd also like to hear exactly what is scientific about it.

[Serious Question about Francoism]

First, your analysis here is facile to the extreme. And second, to argue that World War II in the aggregate caused the fight in Chechnya is to ignore the decades of time between the events of World War II and the opening hostilities. There were considerable intervening causes that are just as likely to have caused the second war. Your second grade understanding of international conflict notwithstanding, there's no rational relationship between the majority of wars, especially those with decades of time between the two.

I am really not bothered to respond to the rest of your post (as I've already said, you can argue with someone else that NPO is all about peace - nobody is going to believe you anyway), but I will address this. I was born in the Soviet Union, my parents lived the majority of their life in the Soviet Union (and were born there), my ancestors lived in Chechnya. The reasons for the first war are exactly as I said and your vague statements of "intervening causes" are not very convincing. When you get first hand experience and learn to speak the language in which the primary accounts were written in, you can try again.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

Yes, Vox is one to complain. Vox Populi members are rarely seen in generic Pacifican topics trying to derail thm and center everything around themselves.

Typically NPO centers everything around us. We chime in for a quick comment and because it came from Vox a dozen members have to disagree.

[Serious Question about Francoism]

Those wars will end someday, as all wars do. And the entire Order is not involved in the fight. I don't know the exact figures, but I would guess that less than 5% of the Order is involved in either of these wars at any given time.

And we are not constantly in war. There have been multiple month long periods where we have not been engaged in a declared war. The fact that we are constantly dealing with minor attacks from terrorist states engaging in what I stylize suicide-by-NPO

Right, as I said, you're not in war except FAN, Vox and multiple other ZI, PZI and EZI targets. And you start wars every other month like clockwork. NPO is a peaceful alliance. Yeah right.

That's like saying that the discovery of North America by the Vikings lead to the Iraq war. While you can make that argument, the cause is not proximate enough to the final outcome to say that one lead to the other. Wars always lead to peace, because with very few, if any exceptions, wars always come to end. With the end of the war comes the absence of war, which I have already defined as peace.

The discovery of North America by Vikings did not lead to the Iraq war because nobody came here for that reason. Wars do typically end. Then new wars begin, caused by the old ones. Always and without fail. I've given multiple examples now.

I don't see how what happened there can rationally be argued as the proximate cause of the wars in Chechnya. And for the time period between the two wars, there was peace.

You don't know your history then. What happened is that the Chechen's are pissed because Stalin sent many many of them to gulags, women and children included, and settled other peoples in their houses because they gave up Russian's to Hitler during WWII.

Under your standard, no alliance has ever been at peace since the Cyberverse began. Do use your vernacular, what are you smoking?

So every alliance in CN has had either A) a non-ending war or B) someone on their ZI list? Even if we don't define the later as war, NPO has been at war constantly now for over a year. Your ridiculous arguments that NPO is at peace and seeks peace are utter garbage.

Anyway, this isn't worth my time. You can argue with someone else that NPO is a peaceful alliance, I doubt there is a person in existance that would seriously believe that.

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

lol If you have IC issues with the NPO than you can take the same course of action with them as we took with ephriam, granted it might not have the same outcome. But who doesn't like an underdog from time to time.

What IC issues? I thought we were discussing OOC crimes! Ephie and NPO must be punished! Clearly GGA is supporting "OOC crimes" by refusing to help.

That he doesn't care what you think. wink.gif

Arguments for EZI get better every day

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

Ummmmmm........ Why are we discussing the NPO anyways, i simply made that point due to all the "coalition makes vox sign up zomgz0rs" posts. The difference lays in the fact the GGA doesn't randomly hand out admin to other alliances much less ones with hostile relations with our allies. Your point is flawed.

Ummmmmm........ because we're discussing who has committed OOC crimes. NPO is my IC enemy and they have given their new admins access to my email. Do you admit that they have committed OOC crimes same as Ephie? Will you be helping me punish them?

You get what you get I'm afraid. My arguement stands ephriam gets EZI.

Argument? What argument.

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

NPO =/= GGA

Also i realize my signature states otherwise, all Vox Populi propaganda i assure you. >.>

Oh, so GGA never adds admins? Also, regardless of whether NPO = GGA, if Ephie committed OOC crimes by giving Starfox access then NPO committed OOC crimes by giving new admins access to my email too. In conclusion, they must be punished.

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

if Debunked = you posting your email addy for the world than sure we'll talk, until than i bid you farewell. <<< the face has nothing to do with anything, i simply enjoy it

Starfox = the world? I didn't think you thought so much of our leaders.

PS: Many NPO admins now have access to my email who did not when I registered. NPO much be punished for their OOC crimes.

[Serious Question about Francoism]

There's no doublespeak or doublethink required. The NPO is not FAN. We don't fight wars for the sake of fighting wars. The overarching goal of the Order, as per the tenets of Francoism, is to provide peace, strength and prosperity to all our members.

There is no doublethink required to believe that sending your members to never ending wars (like with FAN and Vox) isn't peace? What are you smoking? How do you actually even manage to utter such a ridiculous mantra "oh yeah, we strive for peace for our members which is why we are constantly in war and they are constantly fighting."

That's ridiculous. The American Civil War didn't lead to lasting peace between the north and south?

The American Civil War lead to the war in Iraq and the dozens of other wars that have been fought by the US since then. No civil war = divided America = something different than what actually happened. I said war never leads to peace, I didn't say between the two fighting parties.

World War II clearly resolved the constant state of warfare between the European powers - there hasn't been a land war in Western Europe since the end of the war, while there were dozens in the preceding centuries.

And the wars that are a direct consequence of what happened in WWII? Like the two wars in Chechnya? Those were not caused by WWII? Hence as I said, WWII lead to more wars.

Your definition of peace seems to be flawed. I define peace as the absence of warfare. The vast majority of states within the NPO are at peace, and with the exception of a handful of major, global wars, tend to stay that way.

Oh right, you're so right. The NPO is at peace right now. Except FAN. Except Vox. Except the dozens of other ZI targets. Totally at peace, yep.

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

Archon isn't the only one waiting for a clear explanation from the GGA as to why Ephriam Grey is being Eternally ZI'd for "OOC" "crimes."

Their response goes something like this "because we can, what are you going to do about it?"

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

There's no codified rule of law on the international arena.

There is no rule of law in NPO either. You need to learn what words mean before you use them: "the rule of law implies both obedience to positive law and formal checks and balances on rulers and magistrates." - Please show me checks and balances in NPO. Go ahead.

Here is a line from your charter: "The Emperor is the final authority on all internal and external matters" - and you are telling me that NPO follows the rule of law? Learn what the phrase means first. That line alone excludes any possible checks and balances.

That's what I find most hypocritical about Vox. You work yourselves into a fine lather about how the NPO keeps its members in the dark, ignores them, etc., but the NPO has never violated its charter - primarily because the charter was drafted in such a way that likelihood of a crisis over charter provisions was minimal. Without some document - some written covenant between the members that everyone can buy into, accept and support, an alliance is just a collection of states.

NPO never violated its charter? Highly debatable with the Moldavi Rebellion. There is no provision for overthrowing government in your charter. Regardless, we trust our members and our members trust us, we have no necessary need for being completely formal. You don't sign contracts with your friends rights? In NPO, your members are scared of your government and there is no trust. Your members regularly come into our channel and tell us that they don't want to be seen there so they leave all other channels before coming or that they cannot stay for too long, afraid of being expelled. No atmosphere of trust = necessary contracts.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

Well, there is an old saying: When you bang your head against the wall too many times, you start to enjoy it. My guess is that Vox has the concussion to end all concussions....and they are STILL banging their heads against the wall.

There is also an old saying "when you can't beat them, join them" - a good amount of CN followed that approach, wouldn't you say?

[iFOK, if you suck at Dutch]

This is.... interesting? Novel idea for sure, somewhat resembling that offshoot Virdia was going to have (or did that actually happen).

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

Vox is doomed, with the election of Starfox101 they are destined to get rolled by the Continuum. Give up, it's EZI for the lot of you.

We've been trying to surrender since the war of retribution, they just won't let us, those evil NPOers! :lol:

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

The NPO has always striven for peace. That long-term peace sometimes requires short-term conflict is a hard and fast rule of international politics. But this isn't the thread to argue that point.

Oh, so it is a thread to argue about supposed Vox hypocrisy but any mention of NPO and we're suddenly off topic?

Anyway, I think VE is fine in their ZI and not tarnished by GGA - they can't control the later alliances actions though this does show their commitment to that no EZI policy isn't as strong as they'd like us to think. The reason for this is that if it were, VE would at least state that it disagrees with GGA's actions and I don't see them doing that.

Edit: @ Il Principe: a global despot would lead to a revolution (it's quite difficult to control the entire world, it's quite vast - NPO is having the same problem which is leading to the wars we see here in CN) hence more war. As I said already, wars don't lead to peace but I'd pick that up in the thread about Francoism where we're talking about it already.

[Serious Question about Francoism]

The question is "strive for peace" for whom - and the point is we strive for peace for our membership. Any Pax Pacifica that results for the rest of the world is a bonus, but the NPO has always and will always be focused on our own membership. That is the underlying foundation of Francoism, and the fundamental duty an alliance owes to its members.

Peace for your membership through sending them to war? You must be a big fan of 1984, your doublespeak is nearly as evident.

As I said before, long-term peace often requires short-term conflict. Even if that short-term conflict is "long" in temporal terms, the overall goal remains the same.

And as historians and scholars said many a time, "short-term conflicts" (ie, wars) don't lead to "long term peace." Not a single war has ever lead to peace, wars always lead to more wars. I gave an example with WWII just above.

[An Announcement from Vox Populi]

Vox, as usual, expresses it's disdain for the rule of law. If you had wanted your elections aligned with the beginning of the month, how difficult would it have been to simply write your charter that way?

The "rule of law" has some issues with your war declarations :lol:

[Announcement from the Viridian Entente]

That Doitzel can type this with a straight face is yet another example of the bare faced hypocrisy that embodies Vox.

B

Uh no, if you've noticed, we in Vox also believe there is a time to keep your mouth shut. That would be why we decided there is a need for a loose government. Also, Doitzel was saying that if you don't have an argument then don't step up to present one.

That said, for hypocrisy, see Vladimir's claims that NPO strives for peace. That's not just hypocrisy, it's a direct assault upon the intelligence of players.