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Cripple

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  9. Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

    in Alliance Announcements (IC)

    Posted

    I'm avoiding taking a side on this right now, but anyone worth their salt won't trust anything that isn't explicitly codified in the terms. I would recommend if that is truly the intent, to specifically write out how "what they can pay" is scaled to, so there is no doubt. Then come back and make this claim.

    Not saying the claim isn't made in good faith, but would you trust a bunch of alliances at war with you on their word yourself? Makes everyone's life easier if you put everything about the terms down on paper. Makes the e-lawyers happy, at least :awesome:

    I agree. I'll see what can be done.

  12. Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

    in Alliance Announcements (IC)

    Posted · Edited by Cripple

    Thanks Valashi, that's helpful - I'll take it back to GR.

    However, while I see your point about not being able to send out the cash from the warchests quickly, think about it this way; you can have every nation with over 3,000,000 send out as many offers of 3,000,000 as they can. Over time, this can be replaced by cash from those large warchests. In effect, it's still coming out of the chests, but indirectly, and much more rapidly.

    Also, it would be unfair, given the magnitude of the reps, to demand that they be paid within a short time frame, so I feel confident that unavoidable tardiness will be tolerated to some extent.

  13. Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

    in Alliance Announcements (IC)

    Posted

    Stumpy, a wonderful summary, loled, its so true. except for one part

    I think both sides are saying that, we each just have different definitions of "work it out." Karmas "work it out" is, were huge and winning, do exactly as we demand. NPO's "work it out" is were losing, but we cant do one of the clauses. Please make it possible and we'll accept and give you an extra billion.

    Fair point. It may not look much like it from this topic, but we are discussing whether the terms should be altered. I have to warn you though, there's a lot of people in Karma who won't budge very far. If it truly is impossible, then it won't be asked.

    However, I need an answer; it seems to me that given the massive warchests (which I mentioned last page) that many NPO nations STILL FIGHTING have (we're talking 250 million, typically) I'm not sure I can accept the argument that you can't pay straight away. Even after fourteen days of fighting, there should be enough spare cash to pay the reps (not sure about asking that the tech come from larger nations though. That seems like a kick in the teeth to me, one I'm not sure we should be delivering).

  15. Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

    in Alliance Announcements (IC)

    Posted

    Apologies. It feels wrong to keep on posting this, but at the moment much of this topic is largely superfluous. Let's have reasoned debate. To re-iterate:

    I will admit that I have some limited sympathy with the announcement.

    However, I feel that it is very important that everyone understands clearly that the precedent that the most contraversial term follows was set by Pacifica; if you recall, it is they who in the past have specified that any nation in peace mode prior to the conclusion of war would be attacked for a set period, equivalent to the number of days of war which they avoided, starting from the moment at which the rest of the alliance was given peace. The NPO have had the majority of their high strength nations in peace mode for more than fourteen days, so this is not going beyond anything which has been done before.

    Let us be clear; the fact that 'they did it first' is not a moral justification. However, there is no room here for Pacifica to claim that these terms are harsher than anything previously issued. The reparations are larger than any previous single sum, but this war has been considerably bigger than any that has gone before - increased reparations go hand-in-hand with that. Let us also not forget that many in Karma see these reparations as a repayment for all the damage that Pacfica has done over the course of the last few years, not just for this war.

    Indeed, some of the terms that Pacifica has issued in the past upon conclusion of its wars have arguably been worse; namely, those leading directly to the disbandment of an enemy alliance. Make no mistake, Karma as a coalition has the power to enforce a ZI order - but the line is drawn; that is beyond the pale. The reason for that is that within the ranks of Karma, there is a strong feeling that we must not be hypocrites in victory. The line between justice and excess is one that must be pinned down firmly.

    There are good reasons to be optimistic. The removal of the Moldavi Doctrine is an excellent first step on the path to reconcilliation. That is a path that I want us to follow. Yes, I believe that the cycle of revenge can be broken; it can end right now! The difficulty is that there is a strong distrust of Pacifica. There will not be a repeat of GW I. That is why Karma wants these terms - effectively, we want Pacifica to accept them, and when the terms expire, we'll call it quits. But the feeling is that before forgiveness, there must be penance.

    I've gone on for far too long already: to conclude let us drop the partisan behaviour, and talk frankly about the terms. Both sides.

    Cripple (Senator, Greenland Republic)

  16. Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

    in Alliance Announcements (IC)

    Posted

    You don't understand. The current terms are unfulfillable. Reparations cannot be paid; conditions cannot be met. Refer to the links in my signature for why this is so.

    Our counter proposal should not be misconstrued as an effort to somehow maintain ourselves for a brutally efficient comeback. Rather, our proposal is a generous alternative to demands which are logistically and economically unreasonable. We understand very well that we have lost this war, and we are trying our best to come to a solution agreeable to all parties. Remember, we offered to pay substantially *more* than originally requested.

    There's been a lot of hot rhetoric from both sides as to how this or that is fair or not fair, but the truth of the matter is that the terms as they are are impossible to carry through with. Unless you advocate a complete dissolution of the New Pacific Order, you cannot accept the terms as they are. To reiterate this again: if we were to accept the terms as we are now, there would undoubtedly be righteous outrage as people find that we cannot carry through with our side of the bargain.

    This is good debate. I can see your point, that some of the terms may be mutually exclusive. I can tell you that this exact point is currently being debated by Karma alliances. Some people feel that it is possible, but if it is, then certainly an 'action plan' must be drawn up stating exactly how it is possible - I agree, it's not good enough to say 'just deal with it'.

    o7

  17. Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

    in Alliance Announcements (IC)

    Posted

    To put it frankly...Terms suck, make new ones.

    These terms serve more to perpetuate the cycle of greed, fascism and triviality. Your movement of the people, by and for the people got you... nothing! So just hide behind some lost sense of righteousness, freedom and revenge. These terms are the future! The future of this great world which you, Karma, so arrogantly saved this world for.

    I'm afraid you're going to have to be clearer. I personally think the terms are very near to the line of what's justice, and what's hypocrisy. Which side they really fall on must be a collective decision, taken - objectively if possible - by those affected most by the NPO's past actions. The problem is that in the past, lighter terms have been given, and months later, the spirit in which they were issued was spat back in our faces. There's so much distrust that not issuing strong terms would be unacceptable to many. How strong is the issue that needs to be resolved here.

    The idea is to stop the cycle. Unfortunately, there is a strong feeling that if lighter terms were given, effectively an act of unconditional forgiveness, it would once again be useless, and the cycle would repeat. That may not be the case, but previous experience is an indicator here.

    For those who missed it:

    I will admit that I have some limited sympathy with the announcement.

    However, I feel that it is very important that everyone understands clearly that the precedent that the most contraversial term follows was set by Pacifica; if you recall, it is they who in the past have specified that any nation in peace mode prior to the conclusion of war would be attacked for a set period, equivalent to the number of days of war which they avoided, starting from the moment at which the rest of the alliance was given peace. The NPO have had the majority of their high strength nations in peace mode for more than fourteen days, so this is not going beyond anything which has been done before.

    Let us be clear; the fact that 'they did it first' is not a moral justification. However, there is no room here for Pacifica to claim that these terms are harsher than anything previously issued. The reparations are larger than any previous single sum, but this war has been considerably bigger than any that has gone before - increased reparations go hand-in-hand with that. Let us also not forget that many in Karma see these reparations as a repayment for all the damage that Pacfica has done over the course of the last few years, not just for this war.

    Indeed, some of the terms that Pacifica has issued in the past upon conclusion of its wars have arguably been worse; namely, those leading directly to the disbandment of an enemy alliance. Make no mistake, Karma as a coalition has the power to enforce a ZI order - but the line is drawn; that is beyond the pale. The reason for that is that within the ranks of Karma, there is a strong feeling that we must not be hypocrites in victory. The line between justice and excess is one that must be pinned down firmly.

    There are good reasons to be optimistic. The removal of the Moldavi Doctrine is an excellent first step on the path to reconcilliation. That is a path that I want us to follow. Yes, I believe that the cycle of revenge can be broken; it can end right now! The difficulty is that there is a strong distrust of Pacifica. There will not be a repeat of GW I. That is why Karma wants these terms - effectively, we want Pacifica to accept them, and when the terms expire, we'll call it quits. But the feeling is that before forgiveness, there must be penance.

    I've gone on for far too long already: to conclude let us drop the partisan behaviour, and talk frankly about the terms. Both sides.

    Cripple (Senator, Greenland Republic)

  18. Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

    in Alliance Announcements (IC)

    Posted

    I will admit that I have some limited sympathy with the announcement.

    However, I feel that it is very important that everyone understands clearly that the precedent that the most contraversial term follows was set by Pacifica; if you recall, it is they who in the past have specified that any nation in peace mode prior to the conclusion of war would be attacked for a set period, equivalent to the number of days of war which they avoided, starting from the moment at which the rest of the alliance was given peace. The NPO have had the majority of their high strength nations in peace mode for more than fourteen days, so this is not going beyond anything which has been done before.

    Let us be clear; the fact that 'they did it first' is not a moral justification. However, there is no room here for Pacifica to claim that these terms are harsher than anything previously issued. The reparations are larger than any previous single sum, but this war has been considerably bigger than any that has gone before - increased reparations go hand-in-hand with that. Let us also not forget that many in Karma see these reparations as a repayment for all the damage that Pacfica has done over the course of the last few years, not just for this war.

    Indeed, some of the terms that Pacifica has issued in the past upon conclusion of its wars have arguably been worse; namely, those leading directly to the disbandment of an enemy alliance. Make no mistake, Karma as a coalition has the power to enforce a ZI order - but the line is drawn; that is beyond the pale. The reason for that is that within the ranks of Karma, there is a strong feeling that we must not be hypocrites in victory. The line between justice and excess is one that must be pinned down firmly.

    There are good reasons to be optimistic. The removal of the Moldavi Doctrine is an excellent first step on the path to reconcilliation. That is a path that I want us to follow. Yes, I believe that the cycle of revenge can be broken; it can end right now! The difficulty is that there is a strong distrust of Pacifica. There will not be a repeat of GW I. That is why Karma wants these terms - effectively, we want Pacifica to accept them, and when the terms expire, we'll call it quits. But the feeling is that before forgiveness, there must be penance.

    I've gone on for far too long already: to conclude let us drop the partisan behaviour, and talk frankly about the terms. Both sides.

    Cripple (Senator, Greenland Republic)

  20. We who dream

    in Alliance Announcements (IC)

    Posted

    History is made. What has been achieved over these last few weeks wouldn't have seemed possible mere months ago - but it has come to pass, and let no one forget that Vox Populi have fought for this, suffered for this during their entire existence. I feel it is a truly noble move for Vox to disband, task accomplished - a bittersweet moment for them indeed. There will surely have been a great temptation to remain, and to find new purpose, but Vox had one purpose, and anything that came after its accomplishment could only mar the purity of their struggle.

    Good luck to all the erstwhile members of Vox Populi - you have made enemies through your zeal for your cause, and I suspect that life will not be easy for any of you, but you have proven beyond any doubt that hardship is something you can live with. I think that, if nothing else, deserves a salute. May your future endeavours be blessed.

    o7 - Vox

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