[Joint IRON/MHA/RoK/PC Announcement]

Please, take your ignorant preaching elsewhere. I love my alliance I do not wish to see it destroyed. Guess that is why you are in Vox and I am not.

By all means pay those who attacked you for no good reason and hope that this will not encourage them to do the same to others soon -- and you again later.

It's not as if the rest of us don't have a stake in what sort of environment you and others are subsidizing by paying extortion to criminals. So of course I shouldn't say anything. Tell you what, I have some war slots opening up soon, why don't you send someone to try and shut me up, then?

Maybe it will work this time.

[Joint IRON/MHA/RoK/PC Announcement]

So your saying we are being punished for your Unjustified attack on us?

It is called might makes right.

Are you complete morons? How exactly do you expect to get 2500 tech and 475 million from an alliance you repeatedly nuked, CMed, and blockaded? within 90 days?

I suppose you didn't get enough cash and tech? Considering we have sustained damages totaling over what I would estimate a Billion CN. How, do you call that Honorable?

It is called might makes right.

For complaints--> go to your own Gov. They agreed on it.

What government is worth following that would agree to such terms? If you subsidize something, you tend to get more of it.

Meh, I'm in NV and I don't care about the terms. I lost 3k infrastructure and 300 tech or something, but that's worth it to help keep my alliance alive. 400 and some odd million dollars and some tech is not worth as much as my alliance is.

What alliance is worth preserving that would agree to such terms? When your government agreed to pay extortion in exchange for no further unprovoked violence, they sacrificed their remaining honor for false safety. You have agreed to let them have anything of yours they want for the questionable promises of criminals. You will be attacked again, that is a guarantee.

Everything your alliance previously stood for died when they agreed to terms.

Each member of this and the other alliances that surrendered their honor on the altar of might-makes-right have a choice to make:

- Remain in your alliance and pay extortion to thugs, depending upon your attackers for false promises of safety as your nations lay defenseless.

- Consider your nations to be bent swords that need to be discarded and replaced. Reject these vile terms and take up the cause for freedom.

[Joint IRON/MHA/RoK/PC Announcement]

Reparations, totalling $475m and 2500 tech, payable to the following alliances in this amount:

5a. IRON, PC, and RoK: $150m and 750 tech to each alliance.

5b. MHA: $25m and 250 tech

5c. Reparation payments must be made in full within 90 days of the date of this agreement.

These are considered to be lenient terms these days when thugs demand payment for damage their victiims' teeth did to their knuckles. Sickening.

Each time someone caves to criminals like this, it only whets their appetites for more. There is no instance when terms like these were accepted when the victim was not attacked again later. It's like giving spare change out of fear to an aggressive street bum. Once they know you will submit, they will come after you again, demanding more.

I would just as soon allow my nation be deleted than reward hoodlums for their violence.

And so it shall be.

[Vox Populi and the Poison of Success]

Don't worry, the righteous thievery and wholesale violence done by the World Police who ruthlessly enforce might-makes-right shall continue unabated soon enough. This is a mere distraction, no?

[Vox Populi and the Poison of Success]

NPO and their allies practice theft by stealing from smaller alliances in war.

Indeed, and it goes a great deal deeper than that. They have inspired others to emulate their example.

The massive theft that is done when it is deemed a smaller group's turn to be beaten and robbed is only a small part of the enemy's far more egregious crimes. They trump up excuses to attack an entire alliance for the real or imagined offenses of a few. No evidence that refutes the typically weak casus belli is paid any attention. Sometimes the aggressor openly acknowledges this and says "what are you gonna do about it" and "we do it because we can."

Oftentimes, no terms are even given to the victims at first, so that the aggressors can have a chance to loot tech and cash for a sufficient amount of time. Once the victims have had their nations beaten to the point wherein there isn't much left to steal and are getting so small that they are no longer in range of the aggressor alliances' leadership, then terms are offered.

These terms typically include coerced apologies, payment for the damage that the victims' teeth did to the aggressors' knuckles, military emasculation, purging the rosters, root admin control of forums, etc. And when a significant proportion of the vanquished alliances' membership leave the game for good, the imperialists say good riddance, without a care as to the effect that the loss of these nations have to the community.

So who are the criminals here? If we are a virus, the enemy are a plague of locusts laying waste to the entire world.

[Vox Populi and the Poison of Success]

Listen up, buddy, just because you choose not to have leadership doesn't mean nobody is accountable. You are wearing the alliance affiliation. That means you WILL be judged by other alliance-mates' actions. You can't just pull the "keke we no have leaders" card every time that a member does something stupid. I mean you can... but people won't listen and why should they? If you cannot control your members without leaders... get some leadership. If your goal is purposely to let your members go nuts and do whatever they want... people will hate you. Who gets to decide who gets booted etc? You can pretend that there is no power structure but kingzog and doitzel etc clearly hold somewhat favored positions.

I have said it before and I will say it again: there is a reason alliances need leadership.

EDIT:

Aim, high! If this is the mission of Vox Populi (and I am mostly convinced it is) then essentially your very reason to be is baiting/trolling and it makes sense why people want you destroyed, no?

For one thing, I'm not your buddy.

You don't get it, do you? 11 people founded a small group to do a small part to fight against might makes right.

In less than a week, they nearly reached sanction numbers and have several Senators, including one who broke the 2-year deadlock on the Red Senate. Nearly all of these joined together knowing full well that they would be sacrificing their nations to to near certain bill-lock/deletion, because military victory was of course seen as a near impossibility.

What is significant about this is that so many from such disparate backgrounds would be willing to make such a sacrifice with no planning or recruitment. All of this spontaneous.

Vox Populi will die as will our nations. The desire for freedom will not no matter what your numbers, no matter how many weapons, no matter what you do.

That is a guarantee.

[Vox Populi and the Poison of Success]

I'd like to point you in the direction of another member who was ghosting NPO and sending aid scam requests as well, and is still showing VP AA. Still not as good as the one that sent messages telling our members that we had merged with FAN. That was just classic.

I could swear that I just said...

...When freedom is criminalized, the freedom fighters will then be pirates and guerrillas. They will conduct themselves as such and sometimes attract unsavory characters. Making people desperate will make them do desperate things.

Before blaming them for for their tactics and expecting them to be chivalrous, remember that they have suffered considerable damage personally and had many good friends and allies driven from the game all in the pursuit of "play the game my way or GTFO."...

All of this feigned outrage is so much crocodile tears. There was no organized campaign by Vox leadership to get their membership to do such things. For one thing, there is no leadership and no orders given. People from all walks of Planet Bob, disgruntled in various ways, are doing whatever pops into their heads, some advisable, some not. Look at your your own activities to see what would precipitate such desperate behavior.

We have members guilty of offenses that pale in comparison to an enemy who has turned the open forums into a cesspool of hails and driven thousands of nations from the game.

[Vox Populi and the Poison of Success]

You're not the first one to realize they're just a bunch of trolls trying to go out with a bang. When I first saw them, I was impressed, and thought they were really making a statement. Then the daily spamming of achivement topics, blatant topic trolling, and ghosting AAs to get senate seats in green/red made me wish they would just get banned. Also, like most other alliances, we lost people who jumped ship to Vox, who are just going to be perma ZI'd.

Those who are criticizing the idea and means of Vox Populi apparently need to be repeatedly reminded that our group arose spontaneously and is but one manifestation of outrage against might makes right. There was no planning and no manifesto to guide us in purpose and method. Let us assess the current situation.

We suffer in a period of darkness that has been in place since between the Second and Third Great Wars of early 2007. Prior to that time, there was a multipolar world. Wars were generally started for less frivolous reasons and terms set by the victor were far less punitive -- and less likely to drive people from the game for good.

There was no open season upon the non-aligned, and prior to that time, there were non-aligned nations that reached significant size for nearly a year having seen very little combat at all. It was possible for individuals to safely slip into the ranks of the non-aligned and be perfectly safe so long as they didn't start anything. There were hidden alliances amongst the non-aligned that would pop up out of nowhere and sink back into obscurity once their mission [bad or good] was completed. It made for a very frustrating, challenging and exciting relationship with the independents. They were actually quite aggressive in those days, believe it or not. It was fun.

During GW3, we lost nearly half of our then 11,000 non-aligned non-aligned nations and with it, many trading partners. Several democratic alliances were lost in the aftermath of that war and with it most of their membership left the community for good, taking with them not only their trade resources, but interesting personalities and robust dialog. Most importantly, we lost the balance of a multipolar, competitive world.

I look at the aftermath of GW3 as if the Axis had won WWII.

The tyrants concentrate all energy on keeping power and couldn't care less about the anarchy that reigns outside of their fortress. Bands of thugs rove the countryside attacking civilians and each other. There are numerous internal purges as the shifting factions jockey for position at the top while the ruling junta plays them against each other to keep the threat at bay. The previous democracies split up and form into new groups that look to the junta as the model for success -- ruthlessness and no care as to how many are driven away due to these cruel policies.

Some decide to "work within the system" and collaborate with the junta. Their hope is to preserve their nations, minimize the violence and perhaps reform from within. They look the other way as the non-aligned and small alliances continue to be victimized as unfortunate casualties.

Much to their dismay groups of Partisans arise, some of them organized and well-planned, some of them not. They are usually small, but create unease for the collaborators and the junta alike.

Not all of the malcontents are going to quit the game and go quietly into the night, surrendering the world to tyrants. The junta is going to be thwarted in their aim to have the world left with nothing but them, their appeasers and a pool of easy victims. The partisans are not going to be satisfied that the collaborators will be successful in reforming the dictatorship from within.

When freedom is criminalized, the freedom fighters will then be pirates and guerrillas. They will conduct themselves as such and sometimes attract unsavory characters. Making people desperate will make them do desperate things.

Before blaming them for for their tactics and expecting them to be chivalrous, remember that they have suffered considerable damage personally and had many good friends and allies driven from the game all in the pursuit of "play the game my way or GTFO."

Again, Vox Populi is but one group that spontaneously arose. It is composed of widely different characters who are vaguely united around outrage at might-makes-right and presuming to forcibly decide who may play the game and how.

In the aftermath of this war, how Vox Populi arose and how it conducted itself will be reviewed extensively. The enemies of peace and freedom -- and their appeasers/collaborators -- will use Vox Populi as proof positive that direct resistance is never legitimate; that there is no problem and going along to get along is the only way. So they will be more resolved to instill more oppression, violence and intimidation.

Others will look at this and decide that spontaneous resistance indicates a larger problem that must be addressed by multiple means. The heirs of Vox Populi must have organization, planning and a code of conduct.

Regardless, so long as the root causes remain, so then various forms of resistance shall arise.

[Jamahiriya: the Muslim Homeland!]

I would tend to agree. Although I consider the organization that your imagery invokes to be personally repugnant, I cannot in good conscience presume to have you and your group driven from the game before you've committed any offense as some would like:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32326

We may face each other on the battlefield someday, but it will be done on our terms, not those set by those who wish to serve as World Police to decide who may or may not be here.

Welcome and good luck.

[Andromeda Annnouncement]

* ButchA is satisfied that what needed to be said has been said. By all means, continue with your 'hailing' with my compliments. But I will be monitoring this thread and if something else is raised about what I've said, it will please me to entertain it.

[Andromeda Annnouncement]

ButchA, Bleau, come on. Leave it alone.

What's done is done. I haven't forgiven or forgotten what was done to LoFN, but there's nothing we can do about it now. They wanted LoFN gone and it's gone. The fact that York's in Andromeda and still has a level head on his shoulders means his influence will do some good. That's really all we can hope for.

I can't say I like you much, Ephriam, but I'll admit that the game's not quite as fun without having to look over my shoulder all the time. Take care.

I'm sorry, but with all of this hailing and so forth, I think it necessary to explore who these people are, what they have done and what they stand for. This is not merely re-hashing a dead issue. Their current and future behavior is deeply rooted and merits exploration. Likely many of those expressing this praise and good wishes are not aware of this history. It certainly stands at the ready to be refuted.

I don't care where he came from; York is both competent and loyal, and that's all Andromeda asks of him.

Well, this is the question, if he got his training and experience from arguably the most hated and incompetent military commander in the history of Cyber Nations, one would wonder at his competence and why those who knew this would select him. And insofar as his loyalty is concerned, if he would join the enemy while his comrades were in the process of being exterminated from the game altogether, his loyalty would be a question as well, don't you think? Perhaps this loyalty has a limit.

At Butcha:

The nuke was not the main reason I left LoFN, even though it ruined the peace talks that I had been working on for a while, and even though we had agreed not to use nukes at the beginning of the war. I understand why the nuke was fired, and I don't hold that against anyone. But the nuke made me realize some things, and I saw that LoFN was no longer the place for me. There are a number of reasons why I left, none of which I'm going to go into.

From what I understand this agreement to not fire nuclear weapons was something you unilaterally offered in negotiations [in exchange for the enemy to stop spying away your nukes] and was not agreed-upon by the LoFN, which reportedly formulated policy by consensus. Then it pleased you to announce to your comrades that the war of 'subjugation or extermination' against all of them was therefore just. Ouch!

It would seem that those with the largest nations in LoFN were the most likely to look for a compromise, given that they invested so much in building them. The others were willing to sacrifice all rather than submit, much less join the enemy while a war was ongoing.

So I decided to join Andromeda temporarily, under the condition, of course, that I would not be participating in any way in the LoFN war. My plan was to stay in Andromeda for a couple of months and contribute in ways I could, then leave on good terms to start a new alliance. But in joining Andromeda I found that I liked where Andromeda was going, and I felt that I could make a positive difference through Andromeda. So I decided to stay long-term. And now here I am.

It would seem that you, fred22 and Scyrcio heartily approve of what Andromeda stands for. The three of you either recently or are currently gleefully taking part in yet another war to defend might-makes-right, hence my interest in this matter.

I and my comrades are sacrificing our nations so things like what happened to LoFN would not continue -- or at least not without a price. No one has the right to decide who may play the game, with whom they may associate or how they may organize each other. And yet, here you are curb-stomping nations who did nothing to you to see to it that this very thing continues.

For shame!

[Andromeda Annnouncement]

Lol. York isn't afraid to share his background. Nor are we afraid to have him share it. I did not go into details because it's something I feel he should share. But if you're going to push, so be it.

Sgt Alvin C York was one of Walford's top people in LoFN and NONE, and was a member since the creation of his nation. He joined Andromeda during the ending of the LoFN war.

I trust York completely, and I have done so since he first joined my alliance. That trust has paid off.

He did not leave LoFN easily. He didn't run at the first sight of trouble. He stood and fought with his group for more than 3 weeks, and he certainly bled a lot.

You have selected as a senior military official and say that he is "among the best military commanders I have met on CN" someone who got all of his early military training and experience under one of the most hated people here? Isn't walford considered to be the posterchild of military incompetence and is widely regarded as the most responsible for bringing his alliance GATO and their allies as 4-time Minister of Defense to absolute ruin and basically messing up everything he has ever done?

And a bit of research on this League of Free Nations you talk about and York's relationship therein is very interesting.

Apparently, they were a group of alliances that "stands for sovereignty, freedom of association and the right to the defense of self and others in a manner of our own choosing. We resort to military action only when diplomacy fails and only for defense.

For that we are designated a terrorist organization that is forced to operate in the shadows. All we want is our sovereignty and we are willing to sacrifice everything to win it and keep it."

So yours and a coalition of other alliances decided to attack the LoFN and anyone who had even the remotest connection to it, again, mostly because it was allegedly associated with the hated walford. In the thread that is linked above, the members of LoFN pledged to "continue to fight, inflicting as much damage to our attackers as possible as we claw our way down to ZI, bill-lock and deletion if it comes to that and will settle for nothing less than unconditional peace."

They offered extensive and documented refutations of the reasons that they were attacked. They alleged that you and your allies intended to dictate to them by force with whom they may associate and what sort of structure their group may have. And they were good at their word apparently, because if you review the list of signatories, only a handful of them still exist in the game.

One of the surviving signatories is none other than Sgt Alvin C York.

Reportedly a couple of members [in their desperation, knowing full well that their nations were going to be lost anyway] fired nuclear weapons at their attackers, so York and a couple others were so offended by this that they resigned from LoFN while combat was still ongoing and joined those who were grinding their comrades' nations into dust.

I find most of this hard to believe to be honest, so there must be a better explanation. Please do not think that I am trying to detract from all of this goodwill, but there are apparently some unflattering stories going on and think that you and the community at large should know.

EDIT: fixed wrong link; now goes to correct thread.

[Andromeda Annnouncement]

Sgt Alvin C York is a new face to Andromeda; once our enemy, he has risen through the ranks of our military in a short time. I can safely say he is among the best military commanders I have met on CN.

What is his background? Where did he get his training and experience?

[Vox Populi and the Poison of Success]

Who'd have thought people who couldn't cope with being in a large organization in the past, found they couldn't cope with being in a large organization in the present. I'm shocked, shocked I say.

On the plus side, I know a store selling long knives at a discount. Open after dark. Group rates available.

Given The Legion's illustrious history, I think most of us in Vox Populi will opt to being in an eclectic group that will doom our nations to destruction instead. In comparison, that is more attractive.

[Vox Populi and the Poison of Success]

...With our influx of members also came an influx of different attitudes and different moral codes, outward trolling and attacks of our enemies personal character became more and more frequent. Efforts were made internally to quash this behavior but it continued none the less.

It also seems that many joining the ranks of Vox are not doing so in order to join a movement they believe in but instead to use Vox as an instrument to enact revenge against those they feel have wronged them in the past...

Allow me to excerpt what I posted in someone's resignation thread in the Vox Populi forums:

Let us remember where this movement came from; it was founded by 11 people who found themselves swamped by others from very different backgrounds who shared outrage at the might makes right mentality that allows a minority to hold sway over the entire community by fear, violence and intimidation...

...We have commies and German Nationalists, anarchists, libertarians, conservatives, liberals, etc. ...we are united by our pursuit of sovereignty. Later, we can compete with each other rhetorically and on the battlefield, but we first must remove the yoke that hangs upon all of our necks -- including our current opponents.

Stay in Vox Populi or leave as it continues to evolve. The larger issue remains. Might makes right is a cancer that affects everyone and these crises will continue to emerge.

Vox Populi is but one manifestation of the outrage that the status quo feeds. Just because a group that literally came from out of nowhere is not always the perfect role-model does not discredit the Cause. It does not discredit that reform is essential. It does not mean that things should stay the way they are.

In the aftermath of this war, I strongly encourage those on all sides of this conflict to search their souls for how they contributed to bringing about this situation. If you take from this that those who would presume to decide who may or may not play the game and how were not violent or oppressive enough, you are part of the problem.

If instead you think that things can be better, by all means do something about it. I have offered very specific recommendations for reform here. That is what we should be concentrating on, not on minutiae about what small group that spontaneously arose may be doing or saying.

[Despotic Primitivism: Idealism in Decay]

...So you found yourself alienated and rejected by international structures exactly as I said. As I have replied every time this has come up in this thread (must be at least a dozen at this point), we are saying the same thing. The only difference is that I am stating the simple fact of the situation while you are trying to put a moral spin on it and blame someone so as to relieve responsibility from yourself. While I could argue with you about why you found yourself in the position it is ultimately irrelevant -- the fact is that you did. I also said the majority of the founders and a number of the membership found themselves there (note alone how many banned members and you have attracted in just a couple of days), not everyone, so your list of three names is also irrelevant.

This goes for your post too, ButchA. And your post also demonstrates the sort of idealist roots that I was talking about quite well.

My previous post is anything but idealistic. It explores in detail what is wrong here and offers very specific and practical remedies. You have given no indication that you have even read it, much less presented a coherent counter-argument.

As is typical with the rhetoricians on your side, you are telling people what they should think of a perspective you would rather not have others examine too closely.

You either stand for the status quo or for reform. It is obviously the former for you and thus you have expended considerable effort in mis-characterizing those who have given their all in pursuit of the latter.

You deny that there is a problem except with regard to that which people do not blindly accept the status quo. You do not own your side's role in creating this latest in a series of crises. The crisis in your eyes obviously is that there is not enough oppression, not enough violence and not enough intimidation.

Very well. Continue on your merry little way doing things as usual. Good luck with that.

[Despotic Primitivism: Idealism in Decay]

You will note that neither of these were answered as the enemy continue to present lawyerly debate designed to hide the truth and evade their responsibility in creating the conditions that ignited this war. Each outrage they commit stands as another stick of kindling that is ready to be ignited.

The dominant faction is keenly aware of the resentment that it creates, and rules over the world as a minority not by respect or achievement, but by fear of a ruthless, violent, sociopathic abomination. They have repeatedly attacked their own allies to make sure that there is no possibility that their hold on power will be challenged from within or without.

So this time the resistance movement emerged with little or no planning, so there was nothing for them to infiltrate and betray.

Likely they will take nothing from this but that they should be even more oppressive to prevent the possibility of this happening again. All this will accomplish is creating still more enemies where they previously had none, seething and brooding at first, then....

This song and dance is getting old. This rhetoric is no different from that which was spewed during GW III, the Unjust War, the FAN War, the GPA War, and the Electron Sponge incident. We've heard it before, no one cares enough to make one lick of difference in your fate.

And we get it, we created you because of this, that, and the other thing. This is hardly a profound or unique. Guess what? The formation of WUT indirectly created The League. Our attack on GATO, setting of GW III, indirectly created AEGIS. Do you remember what happened to them?

And yet here we are again and the dominant faction and their hangers-on are not only facing enemy from those wars, they are facing new enemies they have created since then because the policies of hegemony continue.

THAT is the problem, not failing to blindly accept how things are w/o complaint.

Let me spell out for you what can be done to break this cycle, because becoming increasingly oppressive is simply not effective. No matter how effective you are at quashing dissent by means of force, you will never succeed in anything but creating more. It doesn't matter how good you are at infiltrating potential opponents, trumping up reasons to attack them, devastating them militarily, etc.

All you are doing is making things boring for yourselves and miserable for everyone else.

And this is not just addressed at NPO; it is at anyone who has policies in place that tend to drive people away from the game and renders discussion on the forums dull because people are self-censoring out of fear of retaliation of being too candid -- and revulsion at the low quality of discourse that typically reigns amongst the dominant faction's sychophants. [You are only hearing from me because in 10 days my nation will cease to exist.]

• 1. Frivolous warfare - some are saying that it is "boring" because there is not enough war. There is plenty of war. Before this major one started, there were 1700 active wars. What we need to do is consider using the Tournament Edition for wars for fun and have warfare in the Standard edition be a risk that accompanies diplomacy. It is OK to have a few wars of plunder, conquest, eliminating rivals, quashing contrary views, boredom, sport, etc., but these should be a lot rarer than they are now.
  2. A return to diplomacy - Let us see if we can upgrade the rhetoric here, hm? The best way to do that is to remove the fear of self-expression. Why don't we consider not attacking someone and their entire alliance just because they say something that annoys us? Why not instead, dismantle his argument using better rhetoric? This alone will go a long way toward improving the quality of discourse here as more spirited, robust debates are able to take place.
  3. Proportionality - Why don't we consider responding to provocations in a more sane manner, rather than going all-out? If some dummy says something stupid in a OOC chat, why do we need to look at the size of his alliance and decide that it is safe to attack everyone? Maybe you could just scold him and kick him from the chan. Maybe you could contact his alliance and ask them what they think of this WITHOUT threatening them or demanding immediate expulsion. If some n00b attacks one of yours, give the alliance a chance to deal with him. And let's be realistic. Don't expect the other alliance to handle it the way yours would simply because it is smaller than yours. Let us respond proportionally to the provocation.
  4. Collective punishment - The only time an entire alliance should be attacked is when they are all guilty. Most of the time, when an alliance is attacked, the vast majority was not even aware of the offense, much less did they have any part in it. And make sure that this offense is provable and again, that the response is proportional. And if they deny any guilt because you did not provide sufficient proof and failed to take your word for it, that is not casus belli!
  5. Excessively punitive terms - If there is a war that is simply one of competition or rivalry, why not consider just beating the crap out of the loser and sending him on his way with no further requirements? Demanding exorbitant "reparations," insincere apologies, decommissioning militaries, accepting Viceroys with root admin powers on the vanquished alliance's forums, etc. is almost always uncalled for.
  6. Give the non-aligned and small alliances a break - There was a time when the non-aligned were largely left alone unless they actually did something. The open season on the non-aligned is killing our ability to get and keep trades. We have got to stop imposing our way of playing the game upon those who don't want to be in an alliance. I know that it is not realistic to eliminate tech-raiding the non-aligned, but the 50-100 new wars that are declared upon the non-aligned each and every day is excessive. Perhaps the alliances on each color team can set up a trading sphere similar to the Citadel Trading company, so that any non-aligned that is trading with an established alliance can put in their bios that they are protected. That way they can still be free and enjoy some protection.
  7. Permanent ZI – Why don't we consider driving an individual from the game to be the equivalent of Capital Punishment and thus be imposed only for a good reason? OK, so he goes nuts and nukes everybody, that's a good reason. Him being annoying is not.
  

All of what I suggest is not to limit anyone's sovereignty. It is not goint to hurt the dominant faction to adopt these policies. It is offered as a means to cut back on that which is not only making a group like Vox Populi arise out of nowhere, it is driving people away and hurting us all.

Try and put yourself in the shoes of someone experiencing one or more of these 7 conditions as they are now. Wouldn't you rather quit the game altogether rather than pay money to people who beat up you and your friends? Wouldn't you rather quit than be forced to choose between expressing the truth as you see it or having you and your friends attacked wholesale just because your group is smaller? Would you care if another player loses his resources because you would rather not be faced with the choice of joining an alliance or be continually attacked?

Those who say good riddance when they drive hundreds if not thousands of players away from the game are the ones who need to go, don't you think? What is the logical conclusion of what they are doing? We are seeing it now, aren't we? Can't we do a little better than that? The people who are satisfied with the status quo are the problem, not the ones who are trying to change it.

Let's say you don't like my suggestions, fine. Then why don't you offer some of your own with the object of encouraging people to stay and to express themselves.

I for one would like to get a trade with a non-aligned and not have to worry about him disappearing because he got sick of being attacked all of the time. I would similarly like to be confident that another trade partner will not quit because his alliance was attacked for BS reasons and he didn't want to pay "reparations" when he did nothing wrong.

How about we think outside of the box and try something different, because the way we are doing things now is not working.

Can we at least agree on that much?

[Despotic Primitivism: Idealism in Decay]

The enemies of peace and freedom continue to search for ways to explain away the existence of the latest and largest resistance movement. They say that we are the losers of the game coming back for a last hurrah or perhaps we have been hypnotized by the smooth rhetoric of demagogues who have fomented unrest amongst people who don't understand that they should be happy with the status quo. So we have the original poster creating this elaborately constructed Straw Man that is supposed to be what we stand for, then dismantles it.

Or perhaps it is a lot simpler than that:

Maybe, just by chance, this wouldn't be a problem if NPO hadn't destroyed other people's "structures." You turn more and more people into radicals every day with your heavy handed tactics.

Without these destructive tactics, of course, there would like be no need for a Vox Populi. Those of us with former alliance homes might actually be able to have some stability and, *gasp, order!

Instead, people become marginalized, radicalized, and come back to haunt you. It's a perpetual cat and mouse game, it is, and I think enough people have been killed by NPO to realize it's time to reorganize.

Things have changed.

Eloquent. And here is another:

Read the article rather than assume. It will blow any arguments you have out of the water, in the end you've created Vox through your heavy-handed diplomacy and by the way you play. You have no one to look to but yourselves. As I said, we are the ghosts that haunt you now.

You will note that neither of these were answered as the enemy continue to present lawyerly debate designed to hide the truth and evade their responsibility in creating the conditions that ignited this war. Each outrage they commit stands as another stick of kindling that is ready to be ignited.

The dominant faction is keenly aware of the resentment that it creates, and rules over the world as a minority not by respect or achievement, but by fear of a ruthless, violent, sociopathic abomination. They have repeatedly attacked their own allies to make sure that there is no possibility that their hold on power will be challenged from within or without.

So this time the resistance movement emerged with little or no planning, so there was nothing for them to infiltrate and betray.

Likely they will take nothing from this but that they should be even more oppressive to prevent the possibility of this happening again. All this will accomplish is creating still more enemies where they previously had none, seething and brooding at first, then....

[The Reformation, and a Declaration of Vox Populi]

...I believe that VP chose the "easy" way. It's easy to play the martyr [ooc] (at least in an online game) [/ooc], but it generally doesn't work.

It depends upon the objective. Bear in mind that Vox Populi arose spontaneously. No one was more surprised than the 11 original Founders at how quickly it grew. In a matter of a few days it has grown from zero to over 170 members and has seats in several Senates, including the Red Team, which NPO has held exclusively as a minority by the threat of force for over 2 years.

There are many in our ranks who were bitter enemies only recently and yet they have put their differences aside, participating in a conflict that at best will leave their nations devastated; many fully expect to lose their nations entirely.

This does not speak to how great or brave we are, but how great the outrage that has been simmering throughout the community.

That so many from so many backgrounds would be willing to give so much -- and do so spontaneously -- should serve notice that no matter what the outcome of this war, a continuation of the policies that provoked it will ensure that resistance in various forms is reborn again and again and again.

[Speculations on what would happen if rads were accurate]

I understand that background rads are currently capped at 5, when in reality they may be actually over 10. This war has been full nuclear for less than a week. What would happen if Admin decided to remove the cap and things keep going as they are?

Here is what is doing with my nation now:

Global Radiation: 5.00

Environment: [Your nation's environment is a disaster. It's a wonder that any of your citizens even survive within your borders.] 11.00

Here is what I fear seeing if the cap is removed and the nuclear war continues:

Global Radiation: 15.00

Environment: [Your nation's environment makes Chernobyl look like a paradise. Your citizens' offspring are all born looking like Keith Richards after a particularly long binge.] 33.00

What sort of messages do you think you'll be getting if the radiation cap is removed?

[Despotic Primitivism: Idealism in Decay]

The ideology of our side is nothing more than a desperate slave revolt from people who would rather perish than continue to suffer under their masters' whips. We do not expect to succeed in overthrowing the Established Order. We do however expect to make the oppressors suffer a price. We also expect for this issue to continue to arise again and again as people continue to impose their will upon others by force and expect no resistance.

While I agree with most of the post, this in itself illustrates why such an analysis cannot be done unless each person is examined. It says we referring to the members of Vox, but I being a member of Vox, do not share all the views quoted. Vox is entirely to splintered, open, and and composed of too many different people to have a common goal besides war. It would be rare for an alliance of 50 people to share the same collective views and emotions on a topic as complex as this and yet it is expected that 150 people share the same ideals especially when all that is required to join the group is little more than putting on the tag?

I apologize for appearing to presume to speak on behalf of a movement that you rightly describe as varied in motivation. I was merely trying to make the point that as a group of people who emerged spontaneously, there was no ideology that the OP alleges. That being said, I think that you have over-stated it too far in the other direction. There is a unifying purpose and it is not just war as you allege. I think that I can safely say on behalf of my comrades that war is the means, not an end in itself.

Remember, we didn't start the war; we merely saw yet another war of oppression started and jumped in to defend the victims. There were more unjust wars, but for some reason at this time, it was the last straw. I would say that most of us are hoping make the cost of defending aggression a bit higher this time and to have this war focus everyone's attention upon the larger issue of whether or not it is necessary to tolerate the how often force is used so frivolously. Also, this war is confronting us all as to whether it is proper for players to use force to eject others from the game and hound them even after their nations have been deleted.

It doesn't take any great skill to continue to lord over a pack of horse-whipped dogs.

What we have now is a period of darkness, in which a ruthless junta wiped out a thriving civilization. Savagery reigns supreme as the dominant faction exerts all effort upon maintaining power while gangs rove the world beating and robbing the civilians and each other.

I ask all of you to ask yourself if this is necessary or acceptable. Then decide what to do.

[The Reformation, and a Declaration of Vox Populi]

I was composing a reply to this and when I tried to post it, the topic had already been locked. This thread is as good a place as any.

I figure, ruling the world with an iron fist is a tiresome hobby. Sooner or later they ought get tired of it, or some jokejesters will ruin things from within if the Alliance grows too large.

They don't get tired of it and perfectly happy if things stay the way they are. When told that what they are doing is driving people away from the game, they say good riddance. They would be quite content if all there were left were them, some yes-men and few easy targets to toy with.

The number of nations in CN grew steadily until the late Spring of 2007 when what some call the Third Great War cemented the current Established Order into place.

The reason the war started and terms under which it ended were unusual at the time, but are commonplace today. The practice of attacking an entire alliance because of what one person may have done [proof not needed] became the norm. It didn't matter if the rest didn't know, much less were not to blame. It didn't matter that there was plenty of evidence to refute the casus belli. Once it was decided that it was this alliance's turn, that was it.

As far as how it ended is concerned, all of the defeated alliances were expected to pay the aggressors huge amounts of money, issue false apologies, reduce their militaries, etc. Several long-standing alliances, such as LUE and NAAC ceased to exist and their members left the game for good.

That started a pattern. Because of the way wars start and end these days, part of war's aftermath is a significant portion of the defeated group leaves the game for good rather than pay money to those who attacked them wholesale for no good reason, accept a Viceroy, etc.

Prior to that time, nations not wishing to be in an alliance were largely left alone so long as they didn't attack an alliance member, but part of the new culture was open season upon all non-aligned nations. There are usually about 50-75 new wars declared upon non-aligned nations each and every day. Typically most non-aligned over a certain size are attacked once or twice each month.

They call them tech-raids, but cruise missiles and air strikes are standard procedure. If they fight back, the raider will call in allies to punish the victim. So if someone wants to opt out of being in an alliance, they are punished for it on regular basis. There are currently about half of the number of non-aligned nations in the game than there were then.

Such terms for those defeated in alliance wars and constant war for those not in alliances has served to keep the number of nations flat for nearly a year and a half. New nations continue to be created at the same rate, perhaps even more so, but they are apparently abandoned at a greater rate than before.

One consequence of this is that before it usually took about a week or two to get one's trade slots filled from scratch. Now it is not uncommon for it to take the better part of a month to replace only ONE trade if it is lost.

Things have gotten to the point that if NPO and their allies suddenly disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't make any difference. Their way of doing things has been so deeply ingrained that others would simply fill the vacuum and do the exact same thing.

This is what many of us are fighting against, but we understand that our odds of success are are about nil. But we fight anyway. Go along with it is not an option.

I'm in BAPS, therefore on the NPO side of things, supposedly. Honestly, I don't care much for NPO, Vox Populi or anything. I joined CyberNations but a month ago, and all this supression and oppression fancyshmancy, all this lack of freedom for newcomers... Eh, I'm not seeing it.

So many others who have been aligned with NPO or tried to stay neutral have said the same thing and learned only too late there is no safety for them either. If your group stays small and follows direction to bully assigned targets when told to, you may be OK. But if you grow too strong, they make up an excuse to attack you. There is no other group that has such a history of attacking so many of their own allies.

Some in a larger alliance might simply get bored and attack you for lulz. It doesn't matter. And at the end you will still be expected to pay money, apologize, decom your military, etc.

But look, don't take my word for it. You and everyone else who hasn't had a turn yet keep thinking that you're safe and if you're careful it will never happen to you.

Good luck with that.

[Despotic Primitivism: Idealism in Decay]

Your quote regarding Francoism is regarding !@#$%*, not CyberNations. The origins of Francoism are in !@#$%*, but since classes do not exist here as they did in !@#$%*, that part doesn't apply here.

Francoism is cited in CyberNations by NPO members, so do you pretend to stand for it or not? I will be so bold as to say that here, most if not all of your current and historical opponents resemble Francoists than you do.

[Despotic Primitivism: Idealism in Decay]

This is all too much over-thinking. The enemy has struggled to create a Straw Man of why this movement has emerged. They have said that it is a fad, that some demagogues have hypnotized the masses to blindly follow them. All of this of course betrays their arrogance and how they fundamentally despise the majority.

A group of anarchists did not convene and draft some manifesto with the object of bringing Planet Bob to Utopia. Hope has long been abandoned by most on our side of this war. This is a desperate revolt that emerged spontaneously. There is little if any ideology behind it.

What is important to consider is how players -- many of whom were bitter rivals only recently -- have banded together; that they have found common ground so compelling that they would be willing to not only put their differences aside, they would be willing to fight with the near certainly that they will lose their nations for good.

Perhaps those on the opposing side of this should take a good, hard look at themselves and see what they have done that could bring this on. This is unprecedented.

And when we're considering the ideology that drives our respective causes, let us review Francoism, which Pacifica purports as the foundational philosophy that drives all words and deeds [from the CNwiki]:

...[there] existed two distinct classes, the feederites who lived in the feeder regions (those where nations were born) and the userites, who lived in user-created regions. The interests of these two classes were naturally opposed, as the feederites sought to control their homeland and the userites sought to exploit them for the resources they produced, and this produced class antagonisms that inevitably resulted in open conflict between the two.

With this analysis of the material conditions, Francoism looked at the feeder regions and suggested that all (excluding the post-revolutionary Pacific) were controlled by userite forces who, through exploitation, manipulation and occasionally outright military occupation gained and held power for their own benefit and to the detriment of the feederite class.

It was due to this that Francoism posited that the self-interest of the feederites lay in overthrowing the userites in order to emancipate themselves and gain control over their own destinies. This is what the August Revolution achieved, with the New Pacific Order being termed the 'Dictatorship of the Feederites', as it sought to create a classless society and bring peace, strength and prosperity to the region. ...

I will leave it to all of you to review Pacifican history on Planet Bob and decide whether they are the champions of the proletarian feederites they claim to be or have they long betrayed what they stood for and are in reality imperialist, fascist, bourgeois userites.

The ideology of our side is nothing more than a desperate slave revolt from people who would rather perish than continue to suffer under their masters' whips. We do not expect to succeed in overthrowing the Established Order. We do however expect to make the oppressors suffer a price. We also expect for this issue to continue to arise again and again as people continue to impose their will upon others by force and expect no resistance.

[Hey you, Ghoster]

So uh, what do you have to do to join Vox?

Your Highness, I undertand that Vox Populi is not accepting any applicants from our allies. We do welcome any who are fighting alongside the enemy to join us, however.