Barron von Hammer
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Posts posted by Barron von Hammer
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Well done!
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Finally MK and NATO take that next step!
This is further evidence of the stability and safety of living within the aqua sphere.
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I am glad to see peace has been achieved.
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Just another reason to love aqua...
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How long have you guys been around?
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Agreed
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This thread is still going on? The way you talk...it sounds like you have been hanging out with Walford.
Diplomacy on CN does not start with an attack no matter how you look at it.
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Just another reason why I love aqua.
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Well done STA.
Opethian, may the PPF prosper as a result of this!
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We are glad that peace has been achieved. You are an honorable opponent WAPA.
DoC: We here at =LOST= do not really know you that well. Introductions are in order. You really must drop by sometime now that we shared the same trench.
Shower first.
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WAPA does never surrender.Would think you would know that by now
Not by the requests we have received to either:
1) surrender
2) negotiate
or in a remarkable display of a symbiotic relationship of the aforementioned (3) negotiate their surrender
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We are proud to stand next to our Aqua brothers and hope to reach one mil soon.
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Fact, fact, fact, fact, blablabla. Here are some facts
1) Neither you or I where there so neither on us knows the the truth
2) According to the no of trenches, size of the trenches and the water table of Auschwitz no more than 60 000 people could be buried there, a far cry short of the 4 million claimed.
3) 20% of SS members were Jews.
Dumbest comment I have read here in awhile. First you tell us that no one knows anything about the past concerning that period of time, then you tell us concretely that 20% of SS members were Jews. Other than the fact you contradicted yourself, I really want to see the sources for you making that 20% claim. Good luck.
Not even going to discuss number two; utter stupidity.
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Communism is the belief in a certain economic system. Nazism is the belied that "non-Aryans" should be wiped out.
I would wish for people to stop using the "omg commies killd moar" argument, they are two entirely different beliefs. One is belief in an economic system, and the other is belief in extreme racism.
Not quite. While communism, for the most part, did not act within the parameters of racial prejudice, they did murder millions based on class distinction. Pol Pot, for example, in enforcing his agrarian collectivization, destroyed an entire class of people (mainly city-dwellers) and handed out execution sentences to intellectuals (which to Pol Pot included those who wore eyeglasses or had any semblance of an education) as well as the crippled and lame, and ethnic minorities like ethnic Chinese, Laotians and Vietnamese.
Millions of Kulaks, land owners, (basically not anyone viewed as a member of the proletariat) were exterminated by communist regimes. One exterminated mostly along class lines, the other race (though there were exceptions on both sides). Victims form a composite along both ideological lines: a Jew, one who had an education, one who owned a small amount of property, one who was near-sighted and wore eyeglasses. Utter madness.
Gheorghiu Dej, the leader of Stalinist Romania, targeted and murdered great numbers of Hungarians. While the Nazis certainly had racial policy at the forefront, they were rivalled in their stupidity by communist decrees as well, such as Enver Hoxha banning typewriters or Nicolae Ceausescu's persecution of the Tsigan race, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands.
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You notice something there? All of their estimates vary wildly, ranging anywhere from 22 million up to over seventy million as you note later. If there is a consistent source, a series of documents one can consult from which to draw estimates, why is it that there is such discrepancy in the final tally? The fact is because there are no records, none available anyway. The figures these people have come up with are in fact based on conjecture and anecdotal evidence provided by people fleeing China to gain sanctuary in the west and were inflated by western propagandists to raise public sentiment against communism by comparing it to Nazism. It also blames every famine death in a country with a horrible agriculture system on the leader of the country, which is also stupid.
You lost a lot of credibility claiming R J Rummel is considered one of the best in the field, the fact is he hasn't for a very long time. His estimates of Soviet deaths in particular completely discredited him when the Kremlin fell and their records opened up to the public, which showed a much, much lower estimated death toll, the one stated. In fact, once a Russian census was opened to the west, it became clear not only were the death tolls claimed by Rummel wrong, they were flat out impossible. Had he been correct, the population of Russia by 1945 would have been a scant 30 million between the purges and death related to the Second World War. Starting from that 30 million they would have need to multiply their population five times over by the time the USSR fell in order to match the Russian Census estimates from 1991. The interesting thing about this is you would assume a non-sovereign Ukraine would have access to more thorough records, more accurate records, than Moscow did despite the fact it was Moscow keeping the census and Moscow receiving the taxed. Their records indicate a much, much lower figure. Further, those numbers include the famine which was induced by the Kulaks, not, in fact, Stalin and the collectivist policies he implemented. Between the Kulaks and the weather, in some years as much as a full quarter of livestock in the Soviet Union was destroyed, not to mention their hoarding of grain, destruction of farmland set for collectivization, etc. You want to place the full weight of the deaths that occurred in the Soviet Union on the Soviets including the deaths caused by those who attacked them. No disrespect but that is the pinnacle of historical revisionism.
Yes they did, and others who have had the same access have estimated much, much lower numbers. Wheatcroft, Coclanis, Getty, Huston, Raeff, Rittersporn, Schroeder, Strikwerda, and Zemskov all reviewed the same documents and came out with the numbers I am presenting.
They claimed 93 million was the absolute possible maximum. In actuality they thought the number was close to the lower 65 million. I also never touted their integrity, and by claiming such you are being dishonest. What I said was they considered the project ideology driven instead of fact driven and so sought to distance themselves from it. That is simple fact. I disagree with their assessments as they still fall prey to old information and anecdotal evidence as opposed to using the now available hard facts from Soviet archives. The point though is they felt the project leader was obsessed with getting that magic 100 million mark and was disregarding any evidence that contradicted it.
As I said, I copied that reply to someone else and posted it here. And, if you would like to look up this post, you fill find a number of historians who will claim exactly that because Hitler killed a hell of a lot more than you give him credit for. If you believe that Hitler is number 3, behind Mao and Stalin, I return to my original statements to you. That is ignorant crap built on anecdotal evidence and propagandists trying to claim communists are worse than Nazis and nothing more.
Concerning the charge of consistent discrepancies, you will notice that I gave figures for forced collectivization and not the Maoist civil war, the repressions, or the victims of the Cultural revolution. I specifically state Maoist famine statistics, which in some degree or fashion, is within the range of thirty million and up and are accepted by the vast majority of Western historians. Concerning your attack on the use of anecdotal evidence, you are ignoring that anecdotal evidence on a mass scale is beneficial. In fact it was exactly this defense that you employ that caused Chomsky to entirely dismiss anecdotal evidence concerning the Pol Pot induced purges that clearly killed millions of Cambodians (a stain that to this day on his reputation). He was shown to be wrong as anectdotal evidence presented on a mass scale accurately predicted the mass murder totals that were released.
Your claim that "You lost a lot of credibility claiming R J Rummel is considered one of the best in the field, the fact is he hasn't for a very long time" is also without merit as he has received the Lifetime Achievement Award in 2003 from the Conflict Processes Section, American Political Science Association; and in this year was awarded the prestigious 2007 International Association of Genocide Scholars' Award for Distinguished Lifetime Contribution to the Field of Genocide and Democide Studies and Prevention. These are hardly the marks of one who has lost credibility.
Your statement that "numbers include the famine which was induced by the Kulaks, not, in fact, Stalin and the collectivist policies he implemented" is pure revisionism and held in the minority of academic views, if at all; since the the recent de-classification of files by Ukrainian authorities this year in which their own census figures as well as records simply remove any doubt concerning the effects of Stalinist collectivization. President Viktor Yushchenko, just last month, estimates 10 million Ukrainians died directly from Stalinist actions. As Yushchenko stated, "There is now a wealth of historical material detailing the specific features of Stalin's forced collectivization and terror famine policies against Ukraine." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1196029281...=googlenews_wsj
I find your assertion that the Kulaks to have caused their own famine to be simply and politely put, ludicrous. Both the vast majority of Russian and Ukranian authorities, who are certainly the experts in assessing their own history, simply disagree with the view you have proposed. In fact, there is not a single Ukranian historian or political scientist who agrees with you concerning the Holodomor. However, I will concede that one cannot place the entire death toll caused by famine on the Soviet actions as certain natural variables played a minor but influential role (weather, etc).
As far as death totals accumulated through the actions of the three leaders. I will grant you that certain historical estimates concerning Russian victims from internal political purges can be exceedingly high (such as Ol'ga Shatunovskaia's nearly 20 million deaths figure). However, once again, academic concensus puts forward the proposal that Hitler did not exceed Mao or Stalin in accumulated deaths.
Here is a useful and interesting composite of our argument below: http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~zeppelin/russianrev.htm
The only real meaning one can derive from these numbers is the incredible range of historical opinion and, if the higher numbers are anywhere near the truth, the Soviet hellhole was without question the greatest tragedy in recent human history. By way of comparison, the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews is generally accepted at some 5-6 million victims. Below are various estimates by historians concerning deaths as a direct result of Stalinist policy:
Solzhenitsyn: 60,000,000
Rummel: 51,755,000
Medvedev: 40,000,000
Brzezinski: 25,000,000
Pipes: 23,000,000
Conquest: 20,000,000+
Cohen: 10,000,000 - 20,000,000
Nove: 9,500,000
Volkogonov: 3,500,000
Thruston: Cites figures in the 2,000,000 - 3,000,000 range.
Getty: 799,455
Rogovin (taken from World Socialist Website): 700,000 - 800,000
Considering the population of the USSR in 1937 was around 164,000,000 - Stalin had his original census takers shot when they reported an unsatisfactory low number - caution should dissuade acceptance of the top three figures. As this would represent over 1/4 of the Soviet population, a genocide of Pol Potian proportions, that is difficult to believe would leave enough stamina, let alone Russians, to successfully fend off the Germans in 1941. The lower figures either reek of propaganda and apologia or only count those documented as shot (Getty) and should similarly be rejected. Stalin himself admitted to Churchill that he liquidated 20,000,000; I see no reason why this should be treated as dubious. Deliberately starved, shot, worked to death in frozen wastelands, beaten unmercifully by thuggish cronies, driven to the point of suicide, or killed by neglect/exposure - tally them all and the median value of 20,000,000 becomes fathomable.
Having written this rebuttal, I think we must realize that the two of us part ways on this subject matter and that our differing views do have scholarly consensus, though we disagree with each other concerning the merits (and academic acceptance) of our quoted respective studies. However you have earned my respect in presenting an argument (however wrong I think it to be) based on studies done using the evidential criteria at hand (though we disagree as to what is proposed as evidential criteria).
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Aqua just gets better and better...
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Z'ha'dum:
I agree entirely with your post #265, in response to borgeater.
I have no patience with national socialists apologists such as him...
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OOC: You are incorrect. Firstly, there are absolutely no reliable figures to come out of China. None. China has been so tightly sealed that no records even remotely useful in determining something like that have come out of there. The 60 million figure came from "The Black Book of Communism", an analysis so terrible two of the authors writing the book wanted their names taken off the finished project because it was a crappy analysis written by someone with an ideological ax to grind, someone determined to get as large a number as possible with no regard for accuracy.
Your analysis of Stalin isn't much better, there are some reliable records to come out of the Soviet Union, however, the number they indicate is much, much lower than yours. Ten million at the absolute maximum, including famine deaths which were in large part caused by the fight against Stalin. Of those Stalin actually killed, records support roughly two million and the flaws in the Soviet record keeping system allowed for roughly two more, maximum. The higher numbers were pulled from defectors trying to gain asylum in the west and as such told western officials what they wanted to hear and what would get them in. What better way to do it than compare them to Nazis? That's the thing though, those highly touted figures of communism caused death are all BS put together by propagandists trying to stir up anti-communist sentiment by comparing them to the Nazis.
The irony is you vastly underestimate the number killed by the Nazis, which is actually closer to 32 million after you count the atrocities committed on Soviet cities under siege as part of their experiments. Operation Barbarossa and the resulted in roughly 20 million soviet deaths outside of acceptable wartime strategy, including the death of nearly four million Soviet POWs in captivity, holding cities under siege until food supplies ran out to observe the effects of mass starvation, and countless other atrocities committed in Nazi occupied territory.
In summation, it is entirely possible that Hitler and the Nazis killed far more than all the "Communist" dictators combined, though we won't know for sure until China liberalizes and opens their borders and record vaults.
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From another thread.
Absolutely no reliable figures out of China? I disagree.
Mao's killing quotas written by Li Changyu from Shandong University details an enormous amount of mass killing. Even Liu Shaoqi, stated on record in 1962 at the Seven Thousand Man's Assembly, that the enormous death toll was 70% per cent Mao's fault (he was later killed by Mao). Li Chengrui, a former minister of the National Bureau of Statistics of China, estimated 22 million deaths from Mao's collectivization policies alone. Cao Shuji (who heads the Government run Political Science dept at Fudan University, Shanghai, China) estimated 32.5 million through Maoist induced famine alone. None of this takes into account mass executions, repression and the Cultural Revolution. Journalists such as Zheng Yi are now granted access by Chinese officials to records of the collectivization policies of Mao, granted access in the waning days of Deng Xiaoping (who also persecuted by Mao). Joeseph Becker has done a good job accessing Chinese cencsus records as well as interviews with various party officials including Minister of Defense Marshal Peng Dehuai's letter detailing how many were dying. Judith Banister's article in China Quarterly also set Chinese deaths from the effects of collectivization at thrity million alone.
And of course, R.J. Rummel, whose work is considered to be the best estimate puts the deaths at 70 million. What has helped enormously in the last five years are the opening of Russian files detailing Chinese atrocities as well (they were closely allied at the time). Jung Chang is only the latest to confirm this figure. On November 26, 2006 the Ukrainian Parliament declassified their own documents and claimed recognition of perpetrated genocide on the Ukraine by Stalin and his cronies. This year the vice-speaker of the Russian State Duma, Lyubov Sliska, when asked in Kiev when Russia would apologize for its repressions and famines in Ukraine, replied, "why always insist that Russia apologize for everything? The people whose policies brought suffering not only to Ukraine, but to Russia, Belarus, peoples of the Caucasus, and Crimean Tatars, remain only in history textbooks." The Ukranian politician Stepan Khmara, who has access to Ukranian and Russian records claims in the Ukraine alone, the figure is seven million. In November of this year, Ukranian officials released their own communist records from the forced collectivization during the implimentation of the Ukranian Congress in 1930 by Pavel Postyshev and Lazar Kaganovich, in which ten million were declared killed by Stalinist action. This of course is just the Ukraine. Georgia, Chechnya, Armenia and other ex Soviet provinces have now opened their files leading to figures almost double what you claim for all of the Soviet Union. I have not even covered immediate Russia which adds millions more.
Additionally, the Soviet Union allowed Simon Montifiere access to immediate de-classified Soviet files concerning the purges and collectivization, an unheralded action awarded to the Oxford historian. After meticulous research, he claims the figure to be twenty million. The Russian historian Vadim Erlikman who was granted access to Russian archives recently, states a figure of nine million (NOT counting an additional 5 to 10 million deaths from collectivization).
Also, you are being dishonest about the Black Book of Communism. You state that two authors left (out of 12) because of terrible analysis concerning the attribution of the figure of 60 million deaths to China. The two authors you are referring to, Nicolas Werth and Jean-Louis Margolin, disassociated themselves from statements in the INTRODUCTION of the book (not the book itself) about the scale of Communist terror. They disagreed with the number being 100 million victims, as presented in the introduction. They instead estimated that Communism has claimed up to 93 million lives. Not quite the shabby analysis you seem to imply as the disagreement is over seven million deaths. Nowhere did they state they disagreed with their own personal findings in which they state that the figures are 65 to 93 million deaths caused by communism alone. By the way, these two authors, whose integrity you tout, claim deaths in China from communism at 65 million.
You also state that "The irony is you vastly underestimate the number killed by the Nazis, which is actually closer to 32 million." Exactly where did I state that? I stated nothing of the sort. Also, you will not find a single historian who will claim that Hitler killed more than, as you claim, "all the communist leaders combined." Hitler is number three on the list behind Stalin and Mao, backed up by the vast majority of historians and researchers.
You did not provide a single shred of evidence for your claims. I would like to see the research and academic criteria you used to come up with these figures.
(No insult is implied my friend).
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Oh please, not this ignorant crap again. Can we have one of these threads without someone making ill informed comments about who killed who?
I suggest you provide evidential criteria to dispute this fact rather that ambiguous statements about something being ill-informed with absolutely no evidence to back up your statement.
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But then again, we dont see communists hunted...
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uh anyone forgetting stalin? stalin was jewish and did genocided far far far more people than hitler. an example of one of these little incidents is in the link below.
No Stalin was not Jewish. He was Georgian. However you are correct in stating that Stalin was a greater mass murderer. However they are both surpassed easily by Mao. The greatest mass murderers in the history of this planet have been for the large part, overwhelmingly communist.
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Israel never struck first? Err, 6 day war?
I also recall the Jews were Egyptians, and as such have no claim to the Palestinian lands except what is written in some parchments. Oddly enough, exactly the same excuse used by the Christians and Muslims...
Still, totally off-topic so I apologise, I was a student of International Relations and Politics and can't help myself when faced with blind inaccuracy.
Oh they struck first allright. They had to after the Egyptian embargo (closing the Straits of Tiran to Israeli vessels in complete violation of International law), expelling the peace-keepers so they could move in over 100,000 Egyptian soldiers to the Israeli border (including every division they had), damning up the Banias stream entering Israel, therebye decreasing the fresh water resource to Israel by 11%, etc.
Also dont forget the comments made in May of 67 in which the Syrian defense minister, Hafez al-Assad, stated, "The Syrian Army, with its finger on the trigger, is united... I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation."
Before the Israeli strike, Jordan and Egypt, in May of 67 signed a defense pact in which Nasser announced to the world that, ""Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." This occured ten days before Israel struck.
In late May of 1967, the Jordanian armed forces were then given to the command of an Egyptian General Abdul Munim Riad (gee I wonder why). Later that same day, Nasser stated, "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations." Zaid Ibn Shaker, the Jordanian commander in chief, stated on record that Egypt planned to attack and Jordan was forced into it. He also confirmed that Soviet military equipment and two whole command units flown in by Egypt three days before the war with the express task of invading.
And of course, Abdel Hakim, the Egyptian Field Marshall went on record stating that Egypt planned to attack on May 27th. It was so bad that Dimitri Pojidaev, the Soviet ambassador to Egypt, personally warned Nasser about starting a war with Israel, delivering a message from the Soviet Premier Alexey Kosygin.
My apologies for being off-topic. I completed my post-graduate work in International relations and am now teaching Political Science and International conflict at one of the local schools. I cant help myself when faced with blind inaccuracy.
=LOST= 1Million NS of WIN
in Alliance Politics
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This was very important to us. Our thanks go to Ragnarok, the Atlantic Empire and UNH for being steadfast allies...
Special thanks goes to the Mushroom Kingdom with whom we have strong and inseparable ties with. Your kindness to us in the past will not be forgotten.