[TPO]

parent teacher organization??????

oh no! the teachers have come for us, run for the hills

That is not what our acronym stands for. I haven't thought of it yet Will tell you in good time.

[TPO]

But why do the secret societies insist on announcing themselves publicly?

And I can do it to!

I am the founder of the PTO. We orchestrate you all, pawns! Fear us.

[doesnt seem like anyone noticed]

Um, Vox is pretty open...the shadowy hand of control would be noticed.

[So, I'm a "Terrorist"?]

I wonder, why aren't you banned?

This.

Also, Good luck in RL, while I understand your reasons, I must agree with some in this thread that terrorist(IC) does not equal terrorist(OOC).

[A New Alliance]

I like anything Irish based, so o/ Erin Go Bragh!

[Stroopwafels]

If anyone can show me incontrovertible proof of an serious OOC attack perpetrated by a Vox member who was not instantly kicked out of Vox I will personally seek to remedy the situation and failing that, resign from Vox. Any takers? Pm me.

[The Corps exposes a Terrorist]

Wow. 'grats on this PWC! Lol@GTN for failing at editing.

[Stroopwafels]

Is this another Doitzel thread not worth reading?

Actually, this is kind of important.

Innovative use of in game mechanics=good.

Noninnovative OOC attacks=bad.

[Yep. Another One]

Dear Mr Kelly,

With regards to the bolded portion, you are incorrect. Interrogating a prisoner =/= spying under the definitions of our charter.

With regards to everything else, I agree completely (including the part where the is no point in following this thread further.)

Perhaps we could get together for a nice refreshing beverage?

Sincerely,

ALdbeign

Despite my attempt to leave this thread...here it goes again.

It seems that we have irreconcilable differences in our defintions of spying. Thus there really is no way for either of us to convince the other. Perhaps we can agree to disagree? And I'd gladly take you up on that refreshing beverage sometime.

-JK

[Yep. Another One]

So vox considers having a government "sensitive information". Makes sense since having a government would mean you're not a true anarchist movements.

We consider everything not in the public eye sensitive info.

And we really, truly do not have a government besides all of us. We are all government, we are none of us government.

This entire thread really serves no purpose anymore and is going to boil down into senseless flaming soon.

Essentially, if you go by admin's definition of alliance, GGA violated their charter. If you believe alliances can dictate what determines a recognized alliance, they did not. If you just came in to post "Vox is fail lolololol." then you are a mindless troll.

Jackkelly now leaves this thread forever. Unless I decide to come post in it again.

[Simple Guide to not being Simple]

I like this list. If more people took part in courteous, intelligent dialogs Planet Bob would truly be a better place. To many of the participants in these discussions merely mimic the party line rather than evaluating what is being said, or just pop in to a thread without reading to post an irrelevant trolling of one side or the other.

[Yep. Another One]

There are four other Elders besides Ironchef that had already decided without her that it was infact okay. There's no simpler way to lay this out. Spying is infiltrating an alliance (which as has been stated more than once in the last week Vox is not) to gather sensitive information.

Spying is not asking who the govt. is.

Go into any sensible IRC channel and simply ask if there's any govt. available. Chances are someone within that alliance is going to point you in the direction of a govt. official.

How that varies from what ironchef had asked misr is beyond me.

Can't...resist...posting one more time.

It has been stated several times that vox is not an alliance. And disproven. You may not recognize us, but we fit all of almighty admin's criteria.

Ironchef deliberately sent Misr back into Vox after he repeatedly told her he had/wanted to leave it to gain information that was kept out of the public eye. That is spying. Claiming he held "dual membership" is a crock.

@ironchef: the bolded sections in your logs do not prove Vox is not an alliance. They prove we have no government(not one of admin's requirements) and the show we do not give up national sovereignty(except for the no OOC attacks thing), rather our alliance is subordinate to our nations. The other log...pretty much shows you getting misr to spy. Seems rather clearcut to me. But then I am a mere mortal, prone to mistakes and errors in judgment.

[Yep. Another One]

Fact is, ironchef, as long as you and you alone are deciding, it's an embarrassment to GGA. At the very least, the other Triumvirs should have you stand down for a bit while they investigate it. Personally, I'd strip you of rank at the very least. Even if they conclude that your action wasn't spying as such, it was certainly borderline enough to question having you in a leadership position. Sorry if this comes off as an attack, but I can't see a way to word it where it isn't going to sound hard on you.

This man speaks truth. However, it is really to much to ask of an alliance such as GGA and would be seen as admitting defeat in this matter. They see that as a sign of weakness.

It takes a strong person to hold inconsistent views against overwhelming evidence. It takes a stronger person to admit wrongdoing.

Not all Vox is the villainous GGA-haters you probably think we are. Some of us merely seek to point out wrongs and injustices. Look at it as a chance to strengthen your alliance through our fiery purging of your chaff.

edit: OOC: I'm going to bed now. I look forward to continued verbal sparring in the morning mebbe. I guess that could be in context too. whatever.

[Yep. Another One]

Actually Jack, no I wouldn't.

I would (as DJ already said) consider said member to be in violation of their blood oath and they would be attacked.

We wouldn't be accusing the alliance they went to of spying unless we had reason to believe they only joined us to acquire said info.

What if the government of another alliance sent the defector back before he lost his mask to retrieve more info? see logs

[18:41] <Misr[ZI]> <ironchef> who are they

[18:41] <Misr[ZI]> <ironchef> you still have a mask and I want to know how they are

[18:41] <Misr[ZI]> <ironchef> Vox said they dont have a Gov I know they do

[18:41] <Misr[ZI]> <ironchef> that is the gov

[18:41] <Misr[ZI]> <ironchef> what i need to know is who is in each one

[18:41] <Misr[ZI]> <ironchef> get me that

[18:41] <Misr[ZI]> <ironchef> have them take your mask

[18:41] <Misr[ZI]> <ironchef> and go to your new allaince

From what I see here I said if you see me as a spy then so be it, I would never tell you what to think.

I never admitted to spying or anything of the kind. If I said you had pretty eyes even if you don’t think you do I would still feel that way.

I have just come to accept the fact that Vox think that because I asked some people that are part of the Vox movement who is in chard of various departments in this movement that I have spied on them. Think what you like I think you are wrong.

As for Vox Populi not recognizing the GGA as an alliance, I say good for you. Think what you like, we don’t care what you think or how you feel.

The movement that is Vox Populi in our eyes is insignificant at best and not worth our thought. The only worth Vox has is as a tech far for our members and will continue to remain as such as long as the Vox movement continues to oppose and tries to oppress the beliefs of the GGA and our allies.

As for the argument, is Vox Populi an alliance? We don’t see you as one and you don’t see us as one. What you think you are and what we think we are is really all that is important to these two groups and our respective allies.

DerekJones said earlier something to the effect of, "We don't consider Vox to be an alliance, so her spying didn't violate the charter." I'm not motivated enough to wade through the 33 pages in these two topics to find it though. That sounds like an admission to me. You sent Misr back into the forum to find information after he purportedly left vox to seek "forgiveness"

Vox populi doesn't really not recognize GGA Or at least I still recognize them, and I'm as much government as anyone in Vox. This topic's main point is to reveal the ridiculousness of GGA's defense of spying.

You may not see us as one, but the holy writings of admin clearly label us as such. If you amended your charter as I suggested earlier to state that you will not spy on "recognized alliances" then you would enable a looser interpretation of that document which at the moment you seem to hold in so little regard.

edit: Oh and my eyes are pretty.

[Yep. Another One]

So who spied again? I missed it.

I saw logs of a prisoner being interrogated about the location of his leaders.

I've seen no evidence of a member of the gga, through deception or proxie, infiltrating the ranks of vox.

If you had a member leave and come to us with all your guides, documents, plans, lists, and secrets, would you consider it spying? This is essentially the same thing, though on a smaller scale. The spying has already been admitted. The only question now is if GGA accepts admin's definition of alliance.

Sorry for being a one trick pony here, but it DOES really come down to that. Your call.

[Yep. Another One]

I am also awaiting a response as to why you recognized us as an alliance as of August 17 but suddenly do not now.

It seems to have become a trend to ignore our arguments. I have been waiting since page 6ish. Derek is trying though. Thierra...not so much.

Intelligent dialogue is key to reaching a solution. Lets have some.

[Yep. Another One]

Or you know, the OPs post was satirical. I mean believe or not people do post non serious posts in this forum.

Dingdingding! We have a winnah!

Unfortunately not everyone is as perceptive as aminea90

edit:spelling

[Yep. Another One]

My question from earlier is why is admin's definition coming into play? Admin did not create alliances, merely the tools for running them. The use of those tools does not constitute being an alliance in my opinion. A single nation can use those in-game tools if they so want, but are they an alliance because of it?

The point I made earlier is that alliances were created by people like you and me who crafted alliances into pretty similar form of what we see today. Admin's definition in my opinion is just an interpretation of what he saw us doing, but hardly something that he defines. Alliances are what we've made them, and the reason Vox's allianceness is a question of debate is that they fall pretty far outside what we've come to know as alliances.

IC: Jackkelly likes this side of DerekJones

OOC:This makes much more sense. However, precedent has been validated by admin in his defining of alliance in the game information index. While before his defining "alliance" could be defined differently, now it cannot. IMO, all that would be needed to resolve our(by which I mean mine and yours, not Vox's as a whole, as they can be ornery) disagreement would be for you to amend your charter to say any "recognized" alliance. As long as you condemn spying on all alliances you are in violation. Expelling Ironchef woul be though.

[Yep. Another One]

But Vox Populi's definition is different then admin's.

Admin's definition has precedence.

But Vox's entire argument on this thread rests on Admin's definition.

Double standards from the people who whine about double standards... that's what, a double double standard?

-Bama

No, my argument rest solely on his definition. Other Vox may hold other views.

[Yep. Another One]

I believe Mr. Kelly might have been the only person out of all the people who voted, who voted against giving this announcement, but I may be wrong. Here's why Vox is an alliance, and GGA is a colony. Vox Populi does in fact have a government. That government is the people. Once you sign up for Vox, you are a member of the government. It's self ruled, with the founder's there to help keep the peace. We support world anarchy, but we are more of a direct democracy if you will. We want anarchy on Planet Bob so all are equal and the game is fun. That does not mean we ourselves are an anarchy, as stated earlier.

GGA how ever is not governed by anyone in GGA. NPO makes the decisions for GGA. It is a puppet, with no ability to think for it's self. It's actually quite pitiful.

Admin's definition of alliance does not require the alliance to be autonomous. GGA may be a colony, but they are still an alliance.

[Yep. Another One]

Given your quote, I assume that line is the only part of my post that you read. Honestly, I often wonder why the rest of us bother waste our time on you.

And to address your first sentence, if the GGA is as much an alliance as Vox is, this announcement (like so many of your alliance/group's threads) is completely obsolete, and the OP is a liar.

I read the entire post, but I assumed most people would find it slightly irritating to quote the whole thing. You have still failed to address the central tenet of my argument: admin has defined alliance, and it is us.

And yes, I believe GGA is as much of an alliance as Vox is. I believe the principle reason for this thread is the exposure of the ridiculousness of the argument that spying on Vox is not a violation of GGA's charter because of Vox's "nonallianceness."

The rest of you bother to waste your time on us because you still have a vestige of honor, even if you supress it to protect your infra.

[Yep. Another One]

Fine.

In reference to this thread (if that's what you mean), Vox Populi is an alliance by some definitions and not by others.

Vox is an alliance by admin's definition. So is GGA. GPA's supposed neutrality is irrelavent. Once again, evasions.

[Yep. Another One]

That is all, fool.

Well, here we have another great contribution to the (generally) civil and intelligent dialogue going on here.

We are an alliance. This has been demonstrated in my previous post. If someone from the opposition could address my argument, rather than demeaning and ad hoc attacking Vox, I would be overjoyed.

[Yep. Another One]

Well you did refer to it as the VOX DoW, not nation so and so DoW. Could you clarify which you were refering to.

He could just be DoW'ing anyone under Vox AA. This kind of thing has been done before. Not that I agree with that, but they could.

[Yep. Another One]

Will you fail already Vox? We are getting tired of exercising our optional defense clause on you.

Brilliant response. Practically ends thread.

I am gaining a little more respect for you, Derek, in your last couple responses. However, this still really comes down to a simple argument:

GGA claims they do not spy on alliances, it is forbidden in their charter.

GGA admits to spying on Vox.

Either GGA is violating their charter by spying on Vox, OR Vox is not an alliance.

Either we accept Admin's definition of alliance, which Vox fulfills, in which case GGA is clearly violating their charter, OR GGA claims to be able to apply reconstructionist interpretations to clearly defined terms.

Q.E.D.