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An open letter to The International


Frost
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As you may guess, I won't answer each of you individually. But there are some things I want to add. I have been thinking about this letter for about a month or so, more or less the time I've trying to voice internally my opinions. They fell on a holed sack. I even had the hope that my resignation thread would make some people change minds. Instead, I found me demasked in like 5 minutes after my resignation was done. No farewell, no 'let's discuss this further'. The decision was already made before I posted my resignation. I didn't voice my intention, but I guess it was somewhat clear.

So in the very end, I decided to take a step ahead and make public my opinion. There has been clearly an attempt to silence it before. That's what you call democracy? I do not.

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Seems there are two conversations going on at the same time, with neither of them going anywhere.

Is this discussion about someone who left the International and now wishes to share his sour grapes with the rest of the world, or is it yet another of those tiresome discourses on the reasons for the NPO-DH War?

I'm almost 100% certain it was the former. However, if I'm mistaken and this is some sort of 'free for all' chat, I would like to bring up a third point that is surely as relevant as any other made thus far:

[center][size="6"][b][color="#FF0000"]Cake or Pie?[/color][/b][/size][/center]

Choose carefully, gentlemen. The fate of the world rests upon your making the correct decision.

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1299290697' post='2652979']
What on bob is a "microleftist" and why should we care?
[/quote]

Top scientists at the Greater Order of Grand Logic Enthusiasts (G.O.o.G.L.E., for short) have conducted a thorough investigation of this matter, with the following results:

[center][IMG]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/DonaldDouglas/Americaneocon/palin-stormtrooper_trig.jpg[/IMG][/center]

Now, I'm not sure I understand this, nevertheless I share these findings with the world as a token of my goodwill toward all Bobians, big, small or, yes, 'micro'.

Edited by Ashoka the Great
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I can't remember you...

But I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I had thought that the CPCN was too into real-politik for my tastes actually.

As for whether or not this should have been an internal matter because of "democratic centralism" (a very amusing thing for an anarchist like Craig to defend, that's for sure), in my experience leftist groups on the decline hide behind bureaucratic maneuvring with cries of "democratic centralism" in order to ignore the substance of the actual political argument being waged. I don't, however, know the context of Frost's departure to be sure of that.

But if you think this will actually help you win your argument in INT Frost then all power to you. People have the right to organise themselves separately. I worry you might be doing this to "bring down the house with you" though.

Just my thoughts as someone who supports the left in the cyberverse.

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[quote name='VladimirLenin' timestamp='1299318255' post='2653387']
If he cared as much about INT as he says, he would have stayed and [b]actually voiced these concerns earlier.[/b] Or better yet, he could have made a real run in our elections against the people he claims are taking us in the wrong direction. Neither happened, and thus I bare no sympathy.
[/quote]
Sadly I think it's obvious from the OP that he doesn't really care about INT. He is upset that people didn't follow his vision and is trying to take revenge.

Vladimir outlined the steps you should take if you are serious about what you are saying, and I encourage you to take them.

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I'd be a liar if I said I read the entirety of this thread. I did get the general stench of butthurt and weeping emanating from the thread though, so I can make some powerful assumptions as to what's going on here.

The International are probably one of the finest alliances I have dealt with in my time here. When I was tied to them in Dark Fist they were always ready to come to bat for us, no matter what the circumstances, which they proved during NEWs idiotic attack on the remaining members of Dark Fist when it disbanded.

Long story short: Hi FC.

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[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1299318485' post='2653388']
Congrats on being the new Hegemony, you sound exactly like them.
[/quote]

Seriously -- a 3.6 million NS alliance that has been beat down to a 2.3 million NS alliance over the course of two concurrent wars is somehow hegemonic? There are individual nations with more clout than our entire organization.

You should consider a career in stand-up comedy. You've got major potential.

-Craig

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Shame it had to come to this public airing of grievances Frost, I always figured you were above such moves -_-

I was going to write a long response to the points you brought up but in the end I don't really see what good would come of that. I am sure you already know what most of us think.


[quote]Long story short: Hi FC.[/quote]
Hi :frantic:

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[quote name='Frost' timestamp='1299269818' post='2652656']
The other current asked for a more practical focus. They supported a more firm growth and a stronger position on the CN-verse, so INT was able to defend with more power the leftist ideals. [/quote]
I would prefer a logical and pragmatic approach over the lofty ideals and political naivety you seem to be asking for....and I say this as someone who helped the CPCN in its embryonic stage, who was rolled in the ICP reformation, who helped forge the merge between the ICSN and ICP back in the day. I have seen where the course your advocating has led the CN-left time and time again since 2006; defeat and ignominy.

[quote]Let's go back to the events. LEO was disbanded, and INT was free to take their course of action for the first time on their history. It was well connected, so the security was less of an issue. Some of us defended: it's time for a jump. It's time for a leftist bloc. But fear was spreaded amongst the ranks of the alliance. The spectrum of Nordreich has always flown over The International. Let's get real. NoR has never been a threat to The International. In practice, INT and NoR have fighted most of their common history, in the same side. But there were other options: an aproximation to SF or to C&G. The latter triumphed, and it was the biggest mistake of the history of The International.[/quote]
More !@#$%^&* :rolleyes:, NOR and the Left history had $%&@ all to do with the FA discussions that took place back then. CnG was sought because it offered INT so much more than just being on the sidelines, the chance for INT to grow and participate more fully with CN and global politics. You know full well why SF was not seen as a viable route and your willingness to pander to a generalized and biased view seeks to gloss over the facts.

[quote]So I call the comrades of The International to think and to decide if they want this Committee to rule them.[/quote]
A committee voted in by the membership, your really beginning to sound like a sore loser compañero...it really is quite tragic man.

[quote]
To stop realpolitik to stand in the way of leftist unity. The International has abandoned its ideals, but I know the membership of The International quite well, as long as I have been MoIA for one whole year.[/quote]
Yet you choose to disrespect them with this publicly aired !@#$%^&*, despite the membership you know so well choosing INT's current direction by a free vote. You have shown scant regard for the members nor have you shown any self respect, had you any self respect or discipline you would have abided by the decision of the majority of your comrades and sought to change the mindset of many of them over time through discussion.

Edited by Cataduanes
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[quote name='Frost' timestamp='1299329969' post='2653454']
*snip*
[/quote]

Just because not many people agree with you doesn't mean that your words are falling on deaf ears. It means, no more (and no less), that people just didn't agree with you. It happens.

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1299335223' post='2653483']
*snip*
[/quote]

A+ post, would read again.

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[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1299386942' post='2654116']
It's interesting to see the analysis of the International-SLCB relationship given by the OP. Seems pretty accurate.
[/quote]

..NVM...whats the !@#$@#$ point anyhow....

Edited by Cataduanes
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I will just say this - when you resign, you take with you the power to make any difference. Some people choose alliances that are wrong for them and then end up trying to change it to something that it isn't. Internal disagreements happen, you can make the choice to stay in the alliance and attain a position where you actually can make a difference/influence the direction or you can choose to run off and finish your part in the alliance.

You made your choice, there should be no surprise when they demasked you after your resignation. A resignation isn't a place to discuss things or to stage a final turn "debate". You had other avenues of trying to talk to government, working with the decision made or leaving. You made your choice.

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[quote name='Salmia' timestamp='1299415573' post='2654361']
I will just say this - when you resign, you take with you the power to make any difference. Some people choose alliances that are wrong for them and then end up trying to change it to something that it isn't. Internal disagreements happen, you can make the choice to stay in the alliance and attain a position where you actually can make a difference/influence the direction or you can choose to run off and finish your part in the alliance.

You made your choice, there should be no surprise when they demasked you after your resignation. A resignation isn't a place to discuss things or to stage a final turn "debate". You had other avenues of trying to talk to government, working with the decision made or leaving. You made your choice.
[/quote]

Not necessarily true, look at what Van Hoo's resignation from RoK did for RoK's foreign policy this war. A HUGE difference was made.

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Yes, because us joining C&G was totally something done entirely by the Central Committee :rolleyes:

If you look at the vote (well, not YOU, you resigned. Just a hypothetical you), you'll see two things:

1. The vote, which lasted 3 days passed unanimously, 20 Ayes to 0 Nays.
2. You (this time I mean YOU, Frost), never voted.

In addition, I went back and looked through the multiple threads in our Gov and private general forums that were about C&G. Let's have a look at what you said...

"Well, I've been a bit AWOL the last week, but I'm alive again. Count me in for that QnA meeting with CnG. Also, I'll try to find tR govs and get in touch with them to have a talk about all this. "

With regards to our second QnA with C&G: "Sadly I've already missed the first one, and I'll doubt to be available to the second one, but I'll try. Don't count me in, I'm having a hell of a day, today."

With regards to the first C&G QnA: "*censored* you, I have no Internet at home right now. So I had no chance to pass on by, though I was certainly awake :-/"

Wow, some truly stirring arguments against us joining CnG. I'm surprised you didn't convince anyone! :rolleyes:

You had ample time to voice your concerns about us joining CnG. You had ample time to object to our joining the NPO-DH front. However, in the thread about our joining that front, you said "Sure, let's get our piece of Poland." Again, GREAT argument. You then went on to complain about how you didn't think INT's nations could handle the fight, and you made some statement about how the war was unsound strategically as well as morally. That was the sum of your argument against our involvement in this war. All you did was worry that LEGION, of all alliances, would be too much for us, along with the rest of CnG, to handle, and make some vague reference to morality.

Changes of policy are not hard to enact in INT. If you want something changed, start a vote in Congress. Anyone can do so. I did it with the SOS treaty, and FinnishCommie did it with the UED protectorate treaty. We presented our argument, and attempted to sway people to our side. And both of us managed to get some momentum going and enact the changes that we wanted. On the inverse, both myself and FC have watched as INT went a different way than we wanted. FC wanted to change our flag, but the motion never passed. I didn't really want to sign the treaty with GARO, because at the time I didn't really know anything about them, but it passed anyway (and I eventually got to know Chris Kaos a little better, and started liking GARO. Worked out nicely for me). Neither of us quit. Neither of us posted on the OWF.

Everyone in INT has, at some point in their careers, voted Aye on a vote that failed, or Nay on a vote that passed. MOST of us have sucked it up and moved on. Congratulations on being the whiny, immature exception.

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[quote name='FreddieMercury' timestamp='1299421704' post='2654404']
Not necessarily true, look at what Van Hoo's resignation from RoK did for RoK's foreign policy this war. A HUGE difference was made.
[/quote]

You have a fair point there I will concede. Hoo is quite different from the scenario posed, however. He was part of the government for a long time, he gained influence through that which isn't applicable in this situation. This person chose to leave before gaining the power to have that ability. Even in the situation where someone does leave who has considerable influence, you still give up your choice to influence the alliance. The impact of you leaving the alliance is up to the alliance itself but your right to lead or dictate said alliance's actions is done.

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[quote name='Salmia' timestamp='1299422225' post='2654412']
You have a fair point there I will concede. Hoo is quite different from the scenario posed, however. He was part of the government for a long time, he gained influence through that which isn't applicable in this situation. This person chose to leave before gaining the power to have that ability. Even in the situation where someone does leave who has considerable influence, you still give up your choice to influence the alliance. The impact of you leaving the alliance is up to the alliance itself but your right to lead or dictate said alliance's actions is done.
[/quote]

I guess so. I just wanted to make my thoughts public because I was afraid my resignation thread was censored or eliminated before there was ANY discussion. Traditionally it given a grace period of 2-3 days for some discussion. Some people have reconsidered their leave in this grace time. However, I was demasked as soon as I have posted the resignation. So I have no way to know what was done with that thread.

However, your words are wise and I mostly agree with you. This was intended as attempt to make the membership of The International as well as the Central Committee, to reconsider their actions in the last months. However, it seems that at least the Committee has no intention to change their policy. They remind me to bulls leaving the arena in San Fermín: They don't know it, but they go on a course that will end where they have started.

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[quote name='sir pwnage' timestamp='1299421842' post='2654406']1. The vote, which lasted 3 days passed unanimously, 20 Ayes to 0 Nays.[/quote]

You had a vote open for three days and only 22% of your members could be bothered to make a couple of mouse clicks?

I think you have much bigger problems than the ones mentioned in the OP.

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[quote name='Frost' timestamp='1299502225' post='2655367']
They remind me to bulls leaving the arena in San Fermín: They don't know it, but they go on a course that will end where they have started.
[/quote]
By posting your OP and pissing over your former comrades (Govt and non-Govt alike) you are more akin to a bull in the Encierro. Buena suerte Frost.

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1299536996' post='2655812']
You had a vote open for three days and only 22% of your members could be bothered to make a couple of mouse clicks?

I think you have much bigger problems than the ones mentioned in the OP.
[/quote]
FOr that particular thing yes, however other votes (particularly elections) have had far bigger turn outs.

Edited by Cataduanes
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[quote name='Frost' timestamp='1299329969' post='2653454']
As you may guess, I won't answer each of you individually. But there are some things I want to add. I have been thinking about this letter for about a month or so, more or less the time I've trying to voice internally my opinions. They fell on a holed sack. I even had the hope that my resignation thread would make some people change minds. Instead, I found me demasked in like 5 minutes after my resignation was done. No farewell, no 'let's discuss this further'. The decision was already made before I posted my resignation. I didn't voice my intention, but I guess it was somewhat clear.

So in the very end, I decided to take a step ahead and make public my opinion. There has been clearly an attempt to silence it before. That's what you call democracy? I do not.
[/quote]
Everyone agrees with me---->Frost Democracy™
Everyone disagrees with me--->Frost Tyranny™

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