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A Treaty Cancellation from TIO


Dave93

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As the saying goes, sad but necessary

This cancellation of course doesn't cut the friendships I still have with several of you in Athens of course. Don't stop hanging around in #tio ;)

Good luck Athens in the future.

[ooc] hotel wireless + ipod ftw[/ooc]

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297752638' post='2634233']
Friends. What a great foreign policy. I think I'll start signing military treaties with everyone I have a laugh with on IRC and Skype! You hear that Athens, GOONS, MK, Ronin, ODN, NSO--here I come, it's MDP time.

This isn't the !@#$@#$ 5th grade lunchroom. You run your foreign affairs like a teenybopper magazine.
[/quote]

I'll draw up the treaty.

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[quote name='jraenar' timestamp='1297741321' post='2633911']
You still have muffins. Your own little piece of Athens.
[/quote]
Very true. Athenian spais are everywhere :P

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1297743789' post='2633964']
As Emperor of TIO I heartily agree with this decision.

Look for the bright side, Athens and TIO avoided the risk of pay reparations to CSN for using this ODP to join a war. ;)
[/quote]

As Emperor of TIO I'd have canceled the treaty with the alliance with a little p between to large letters. Just sayin.

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[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1297781142' post='2634397']
I'll draw up the treaty.
[/quote]-S-
Schattenmann, Presbyter, Cult of Justitia

This is just one more example of exactly what I Was talking about on the show last week. In what chummy secret IRC channel did anyone from Athens or TIO actually think that a treaty was a good way to show that they are "friends?" They have nothing in common, and as for their FA link IAA, in what world does anyone think that Athens is going to actually defend IAA against the only people that would ever threaten IAA: Athens' other more important allies. Sloppy foreign policy decisions like this one between TIO and Athens are the reason that most treaties have become such [i]jokes[/i], and then are [i]you kidding me [/i]Athens is going to throw a tantrum when the rubber hits the road and reality sets in so TIO cancels? Grow up, what did they think was going to happen?

I should write a treaty for all my friends and post one a day for a month. :negativeman: I have less than 30 friends!

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297782922' post='2634419']
-S-
Schattenmann, Presbyter, Cult of Justitia

This is just one more example of exactly what I Was talking about on the show last week. In what chummy secret IRC channel did anyone from Athens or TIO actually think that a treaty was a good way to show that they are "friends?" They have nothing in common, and as for their FA link IAA, in what world does anyone think that Athens is going to actually defend IAA against the only people that would ever threaten IAA: Athens' other more important allies. Sloppy foreign policy decisions like this one between TIO and Athens are the reason that MDPs have become such [i]jokes[/i], and then are [i]you kidding me [/i]Athens is going to throw a tantrum when the rubber hits the road and reality sets in so TIO cancels? Grow up, what did they think was going to happen?

I should write a treaty for all my friends and post one a day for a month.
[/quote]

Schatt, there was a very valid point in time where this treaty made a lot of sense to TIO, even if it ended up that TIO's FA eventually ended up following a more similar pathway to TIO v1. (this is purely treaty web related)

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[quote name='Sup4l33t3ki11a' timestamp='1297783562' post='2634426']
Schatt, there was a very valid point in time where this treaty made a lot of sense to TIO, even if it ended up that TIO's FA eventually ended up following a more similar pathway to TIO v1. (this is purely treaty web related)
[/quote]
And that's why it made sense to cancel it, so why the piss and moans from Athens? A glance at their wiki clearly shows they have a desire to treaty half the planet, but it is times such as these that show where true allegiance lies, so [i]why not [/i]cancellations which reflect alliances' true foreign policies? I congratulate TIO for their come to Jesus self reflection.

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[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1297777221' post='2634374']
He does have a point rsoxbronco1, for most of Athens life Jgoods was running around signing anything that had a pulse and spoke back to him :ehm:
[/quote]

I think here lies all of Athens FA problems right here in terms of treaties and the rebel hit it right on. :v:

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297784022' post='2634434']
And that's why it made sense to cancel it, so why the piss and moans from Athens? A glance at their wiki clearly shows they have a desire to treaty half the planet, but it is times such as these that show where true allegiance lies, so [i]why not [/i]cancellations which reflect alliances' true foreign policies? I congratulate TIO for their come to Jesus self reflection.
[/quote]

I wouldn't go that far at all. They actually put a huge amount of effort into working with us to hash out our differences, the process was certainly not easy for either alliance.

TIO don't ever sign treaties based purely on political sense, there is a little something called friendship that comes very largely into the discussion process, why sign treaties with alliances you don't like or can't work well with?

Can you honestly say that you have never considered how much you like members in an alliance you're allied to? Or at least considered this before thinking about potential treaty partners? If so you are just as guilty as Athens, just more lonely.

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[quote name='Sup4l33t3ki11a' timestamp='1297786778' post='2634463']
I wouldn't go that far at all. They actually put a huge amount of effort into working with us to hash out our differences, the process was certainly not easy for either alliance.

TIO don't ever sign treaties based purely on political sense, there is a little something called friendship that comes very largely into the discussion process, why sign treaties with alliances you don't like or can't work well with?

Can you honestly say that you have never considered how much you like members in an alliance you're allied to? Or at least considered this before thinking about potential treaty partners? If so you are just as guilty as Athens, just more lonely.
[/quote]
I have very publically stated that, no, I do not go around thinking "hmmmm, who am I friends with" when I decide I would like to sign a treaty. All Justitian foreign policy is rooted in our values, not our flittering personal relationships, and it is because of that that I have never had to tell a friend "sorry, this friend asked for help before this friend, whoopsies! But we'll send some token money after you get your skulls caved in." Where's all that "friendship" today? Gone with your treaty. Do you see anyone from Athens telling the MKers who are spitting on you in this thread to lay off their good friends at TIO? No. [i]Some friends[/i]. Treaties are a matter of policy, and they should be treated as such. Strong bonds shoul be made between organizations with common goals and interests, compatible personalities only factoring afterwards. There are friends I would never sign a treaty with, and there are organizations with common goals I would never sign a treaty with.

The childishness of the mentality that friend=military allegiance is mind-blowing and even with its reality so recently crammed down your throat (or up your butt sideways as the case may be) you use these childish terms of endearment in regards to matters of politics. It's no wonder you were left hamstrung and out in the cold like every other alliance that has signed a treaty with alliances based on chit-chat rather than focus on policy and politics. These treaties are like baby blankets, clung to for security and comfort; they are escape hatches. They make lazy statesmen and complacent militaries dependent upon the charity of friends-in-high-places and the competency of someone else's army for security.
This "philosophy" of friend=treaty is a breach of the alliance-nation relationship which serves the egoes of goverments rather than the interests of members: What has Athens' security--Athens, which has no common goals to TIO--got to do with the security or growth of TIO nations? Nothing. What has TIO's security got to do with the same for Athenians? Nothing! Has one Athenian suffered for TIO's burning in this war? Not one. Would one member of TIO have gained anything if you kept this treaty through the end of Athens' war? No, not one member of TIO would benefit any bit. These treaties represent nothing but footsie and busy-work for alliance governments whose time would be better spent developing internal strength and philosophy.

Yes, I [b]do[/b] reject this Viridian model survivalist mode of existence. And in doing so, Cult of Justitia--and any alliance which does the same--gains the most rare power on Digiterra and that is self-determination and true sovereignty.

Edited by Schattenmann
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Oh lawrdy, talk about pissing and moaning :rolleyes:

I'm sorry you don't like how Athens runs its FA but to be quite honest, too bad. We've lasted this long and managed to bring out your amusing walls of text so it's not like we're flailing around like certain other alliances.

Edited by Fyfe XIV
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[quote name='Fyfe XIV' timestamp='1297789321' post='2634489']
Oh lawrdy, talk about pissing and moaning :rolleyes:

I'm sorry you don't like how Athens runs its FA but to be quite honest, too bad. We've lasted this long and managed to bring out your amusing walls of text so it's not like we're flailing around like certain other alliances.
[/quote]
All glory and honor to Mushroom Kingdom and the Tonberry King, glorious sponsor and guardian of Athens, guiding hand in times of Athenian facepalm and firm correcting parent in times of derp.

Seriously, if lasting a long time is your measure of success, join a neutral alliance. If Athens' measures success in relation to other alliances, join the ones that are more successful than you.

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297788394' post='2634478']
I have very publically stated that, no, I do not go around thinking "hmmmm, who am I friends with" when I decide I would like to sign a treaty. All Justitian foreign policy is rooted in our values, not our flittering personal relationships, and it is because of that that I have never had to tell a friend "sorry, this friend asked for help before this friend, whoopsies! But we'll send some token money after you get your skulls caved in." Where's all that "friendship" today? Gone with your treaty.

The childishness of the mentality that friend=military allegiance is mind-blowing and even with its reality so recently crammed down your throat (or up your butt sideways as the case may be) you use these childish terms of endearment in regards to matters of politics. It's no wonder you were left hamstrung and out in the cold like every other alliance that has signed a treaty with alliances based on chit-chat rather than focus on policy and politics. These treaties are like baby blankets, clung to for security and comfort; they are escape hatches. They make lazy statesmen and complacent militaries dependent upon the charity of friends-in-high-places and the competency of someone else's army for security.
This "philosophy" of friend=treaty is a breach of the alliance-nation relationship which serves the egoes of goverments rather than the interests of members: What has Athens' security--Athens, which has no common goals to TIO--got to do with the security or growth of TIO nations? Nothing. What has TIO's security got to do with the same for Athenians? Nothing! Has one Athenian suffered for TIO's burning in this war? Not one. Would one member of TIO have gained anything if you kept this treaty through the end of Athens' war? No, not one member of TIO would benefit any bit. These treaties represent nothing but footsie and busy-work for alliance governments whose time would be better spent developing internal strength and philosophy.

Yes, I [b]do[/b] reject this Viridian model survivalist mode of existence. And in doing so, Cult of Justitia--and any alliance which does the same--gains the most rare power on Digiterra and that is self-determination and true sovereignty.
[/quote]


No, quite honestly I believe that friendship and common goals are necessity for any strong long term relationship between two parties. Like I said, there WAS a point where the treaty made sense, sadly not so much anymore, which is why it's been canceled.

TIO are very proud to call their allies friends, is that hard for you to comprehend Schatt? Can you not appreciate and respect other people's philosophies? Or do you just have to shout out stubbornly that they're, in your eyes, wrong.

Self-determination and true sovereignty? That's only [u][b]slightly[/b][/u] archaic nowadays. Some people [b]do[/b] enjoy the satisfaction of knowing that they're helping/working with their friends. And especially given the political climate, I think that it's the right thing to do.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297789995' post='2634494']
Seriously, if lasting a long time is your measure of success, join a neutral alliance.
[/quote]

Certainly these two correlate, but long lastingness is not caused by neutrality. Also, I am in Athens because of the people and community. Do you really think the the fun part of Planet Bob is coming and arguing on the OWF?

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[quote name='Kevanovia' timestamp='1297753742' post='2634249']
There was some belief that Athens would leave CnG, so yes you guys re-signing with MK had a huge political impact.
[/quote]
No one with two brain cells to rub together legitimately thought that Athens was going to leave CnG, so my point still stands.

Edited by flak attack
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[quote name='Fyfe XIV' timestamp='1297804391' post='2634655']
Certainly these two correlate, but long lastingness is not caused by neutrality. Also, I am in Athens because of the people and community. Do you really think the the fun part of Planet Bob is coming and arguing on the OWF?
[/quote]
Well, you certainly don't come here for the kool-aid <_<...so, yes, one must assume so.

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[quote name='Fyfe XIV' timestamp='1297804391' post='2634655']
Certainly these two correlate, but long lastingness is not caused by neutrality. Also, I am in Athens because of the people and community. Do you really think the the fun part of Planet Bob is coming and arguing on the OWF?
[/quote]

Yes :awesome:

[ooc] Stalin and Hitler were great friends but that wasn't a good basis for being allied. In fact Stalin has a Dacha built on the Volga for when Hitler surrendered so that Stalin could visit with him. [/ooc]

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297788394' post='2634478']
*snip*
[/quote]

First and foremost, if you're really friends with someone, you have at least one goal in common: each other's continued survival. If you have no problem watching someone burn, you're probably not their friend. Overlooking that, you then go on to say there are friends who you would never treaty. I am taking that with the assumption that no treaty means you wouldn't come to their aid militarily, and might even be ready to fight against them in war; actively seeking their destruction to further your cause against theirs. That within itself is perfectly reasonable, if that's what you choose to believe.

But then you go on to condemn VE for having a survivalist mode of existence. Assuming that you're right for the sake of making a point, how do you figure that your view of doing absolutely anything to further your ideas is any way better than their view of doing anything to further their own existence? Is the robust Viridian Entente and it's power sphere not within itself an idea that was furthered through VE's actions? In short, how can you be so upset with them for doing the same thing you are for a different end goal?

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1297782922' post='2634419']
-S-
Schattenmann, Presbyter, Cult of Justitia

This is just one more example of exactly what I Was talking about on the show last week. In what chummy secret IRC channel did anyone from Athens or TIO actually think that a treaty was a good way to show that they are "friends?" They have nothing in common, and as for their FA link IAA, in what world does anyone think that Athens is going to actually defend IAA against the only people that would ever threaten IAA: Athens' other more important allies.

I should write a treaty for all my friends and post one a day for a month. :negativeman: I have less than 30 friends!
[/quote]

Since I think I've pointed this out before I'll go ahead and do it again. This one time GOD had the idea that they were going to come beat up IAA. Had Athens not been there I don't think IAA would have even stood a chance then. So actually if we're talking about people that want to burn IAA, I don't think Athens' "more important allies" would be the real threats.

Also I'll be adding you as a friend on here so that I can get a treaty. Sound good?

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[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1297804887' post='2634665']
Well, you certainly don't come here for the kool-aid <_<...so, yes, one must assume so.
[/quote]

Edit: Mixed up responses D:

I just enjoy evoking long winded responses from Schattemann so he can feel important. I really don't take this place seriously :o

Edited by Fyfe XIV
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