Ashoka the Great Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1298136392' post='2638477'] Come on, Zog, you're smarter than that. All Xiph did as far as "crafting the terms" was literally writing them.[/quote] I am left speechless by this reasoning. You, gentle sir, get to go in the sig for a while for that bit of brilliance. [quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1298133975' post='2638449'] <many many words>[/quote] I wonder, do you recall saying that if this dragged on for more than a couple of weeks then you would support white peace? Quick, go back and change what you said before someone brings it up! Edited February 19, 2011 by Ashoka the Great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hizzy Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 CSN should probably just disband and save themselves the embarrassment of having to be CSN. At the very least just change your name to the Commonwealth of Nations. CoN ain't that bad of a tag, afterall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pd73bassman Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1298147695' post='2638584'] CSN should probably just disband and save themselves the embarrassment of having to be CSN. At the very least just change your name to the Commonwealth of Nations. CoN ain't that bad of a tag, afterall. [/quote] I like that idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penkala Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1298141037' post='2638511'] 2 to 3 weeks of war huh? We've been at war with CSN now for 3 weeks and we're now working on #4. When the reason for war was over with 2 weeks ago with TIO getting peace. The ones kicking and screaming are the ones asking for the extreme reps and then walk out when they don't get their way. If I recall it was CSN's own FA Liz that was doing F Bombs during the talks. So I'd look to your ally and talk to them about temper tantrums. [/quote] Are you really that dense or are you purposely ignoring my points? They would have offered you white peace at this point [b][i][u]IF[/u][/i][/b] you hadn't done the things I've listed. Please note: "IF" is an extremely important part of my statement, and you should not just gloss over the word and change the meaning. [quote]If they have had any OOC issues then why haven't they come to us with who is doing it? OOC actions are unacceptable and we would take the needed actions to resolving that issue. If CSN was so concerned about all of that then they know where we are and we'd be willing to work with them to address the threats that you are so call clamming at this point. [/quote] I'm not sure. But them not going to you does not mean the acts never happened. [quote]If they are so willing to work then where's the negotiating? Where's them coming to us and saying lets end this? We've had our door open to talks from the time TIO got peace, CSN just likes to walk out and not negotiate.[/quote] Read my entire reply again. I answered this. They haven't done this specifically because of some of the actions taken. [quote] Seems DT has put more into negotiations then what CSN has. They are the ones that have walked out. They are the one that can't consed to finding middle ground. Every offer that has been anything but the original 40k has been done by DT. [/quote] I'll respond to this later when I get clarification on something from CSN, but this may not be accurate. By the way, their terms have consistently moved downwards while you're have also.. consistently moved downwards. It is a fact that they are moving toward the middle and you are not. Once again, and you keep glossing over this fact: DT has handled these negotiations completely inappropriately. At this point I'm fairly convinced that DT doesn't even want peace yet. They're just hoping to hurt CSN's PR. No rational party acting in its best interests acts like you have in this war. Nobody takes things to the OWF and insults the alliance they're negotiating with if they truly want white peace. It just doesn't happen. [quote]CSN should probably just disband and save themselves the embarrassment of having to be CSN. At the very least just change your name to the Commonwealth of Nations. CoN ain't that bad of a tag, afterall. [/quote] This is kind of hilarious. CSN's consistently tried to find acceptable terms with DT. DT's handling of peace, however, has consisted of the most whining I've ever seen. DT seems to think that they're ENTITLED to enter a war and leave whenever they want with no negative repercussions whatsoever. And yes, Kingzog, I did say that I support a lessening of terms over time. My understanding is that that has happened. Again, though, I'm not clear on the details. I'll be sure to let you know once I know! And if you really think CSN should have caved into DT's demands and antics and offered white peace after how DT's handled peace talks... you're insane. You wouldn't give in to an alliance's temper tantrum like that and do exactly what they demanded of you either. Period. Edited February 19, 2011 by Penkala Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathcat Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1298153321' post='2638638'] They're just hoping to hurt CSN's PR... [/quote] No point trying to help you out in that Pen... You do a great job boosting CSN's image all by yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penkala Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote]myworld covered this already but DT put in the effort in negotiations. CSN did not. [/quote] CSN: -Relaxed terms on length of payment. -Relaxed terms on who in the alliance can pay. -Reduced DT's portion to only *10k tech* -Was willing to negotiate even further. DT: -Consistently lowered its offering to zero. Who's trying hard here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarmatian Empire Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1298153844' post='2638649'] CSN: -Relaxed terms on length of payment. -Relaxed terms on who in the alliance can pay. -Reduced DT's portion to only *10k tech* -Was willing to negotiate even further. DT: -Consistently lowered its offering to zero. Who's trying hard here? [/quote] Also note that to the best of my knowledge, CSN has not directly gone to DT to solve the issue nor has DT gone directly to CSN in quite some time. Although if DT is the one surrendering CSN shouldnt be going to them imo. They have been using a middle man, me being one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefjoe Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1298153321' post='2638638'] <insert>copious amounts of hot air<insert>[/quote] So your argument for them not getting [i]decent[/i] terms is now 'DT were bad sports!'?? So basicly what you are saying is that DT had no right to be upset and call out CSNs !@#$%^&* after initial talks? I thought we covered that many many pages ago but I guess you like circular arguments. Bottom line Penkala, DT's response was directly related to how CSN initialy treated them when approached. So for you to take your line of 'spin' its like telling someone you are torturing that if they scream its their fault and thats why the torture will continue..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hizzy Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Ya it's pretty easy to say "if DT didn't do this" and try to shift the blame, but we live in the real world (ooc: lol) where "if's" don't mean !@#$ precisely because people like you are just going to use it to make someone else look like the bad guy. Pretending that DT could have gotten white peace if they had just stayed quiet doesn't change the fact that CSN literally has a prepubescent girl with an inferiority complex for a MoFA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFish Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1298144124' post='2638541'] You guys are making this too easy. All he did as far as crafting the terms was write them? Oh man ... lol. [/quote] [quote name='The Great One' timestamp='1298146411' post='2638573'] I assume what he meant by "writing them" was "posting them in the discussion chan". Very poorly worded on his part. [/quote] [quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1298147525' post='2638582'] I am left speechless by this reasoning. You, gentle sir, get to go in the sig for a while for that bit of brilliance. [/quote] Haf I expected this from, but you, Zog? I guess you're not the man I thought you were. What Xiph did was took the demands CSN wanted (40k tech, no re-entry, etc) and put it into formal writing for them. If being the one to physically type out the words is what makes you the leader of an alliance, all of Planet Bob must be run by the secretaries. I don't think you guys "get" the word "literally". Edited February 20, 2011 by NoFish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodivine Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1298154024' post='2638653'] Also note that to the best of my knowledge, CSN has not directly gone to DT to solve the issue nor has DT gone directly to CSN in quite some time. Although if DT is the one surrendering CSN shouldnt be going to them imo. They have been using a middle man, me being one of them. [/quote] CSN was the one to walk out Sarmatian. The door is open for them to walk back in. We're not going to go chasing them down going. Hey, hey, hey, You over there can we talk? They want to end it they know where we are. In fact we're closer then most since me and Goose have an active war going. All it takes is a pm going hey we're ready to talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles the Great Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 fail terms are still fail no matter how long you try to say they are not....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1298154941' post='2638664'] Pretending that DT could have gotten white peace if they had just stayed quiet doesn't change the fact that CSN literally has a [b]prepubescent girl[/b] with an inferiority complex for a MoFA. [/quote] Good thing I am neither of those things, nor do I prescribe to my own cult of personality. Likewise, I wouldn't expect everyone to know of the government switch since it wasn't announced at large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarmatian Empire Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 [quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1298159182' post='2638733'] CSN was the one to walk out Sarmatian. The door is open for them to walk back in. We're not going to go chasing them down going. Hey, hey, hey, You over there can we talk? They want to end it they know where we are. In fact we're closer then most since me and Goose have an active war going. All it takes is a pm going hey we're ready to talk. [/quote] I understand that, but its not their responsbility. The surrendering alliance goes to the other alliance, not the other way around. Yeah, they walked about once? twice? I think its once, but I could be wrong, its all a big mess anymore. If you get knocked down off the horse, you get right back up right? Say you went to them tonight to talk and they walk out again. What did you lose? Precious time you would of spent...chillin on irc? Looking over the war? Id understand if you were meeting at someones house, but most people are on irc already, your not losing anything. Both sides refusal to go to the other is half the reason with war is taking so long. It's not any one alliances fault, but someone needs to put on their manpants and start the convo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedj Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298159846' post='2638740'] Good thing I am neither of those things, nor do I prescribe to my own cult of personality. Likewise, I wouldn't expect everyone to know of the government switch since it wasn't announced at large. [/quote] I dunno, you are kinda girl-like..must be the brain damage @ChefJoe, Please stop trying to use reason and logic with Penkala...you know damn well its falling on deaf ears Edited February 20, 2011 by wickedj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 [quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1298162269' post='2638772'] I dunno, you are kinda girl-like..must be the brain damage [/quote] Hmm, touche. Sometimes I do get confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 [quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1298153844' post='2638649'] CSN: -Relaxed terms on length of payment.[b]- DT was the one who proposed this. [/b] -Relaxed terms on who in the alliance can pay.[b]- This one is ambiguous. 30k could come from any source [/b] -Reduced DT's portion to only *10k tech*[b]- which had to be paid by DT nations over 2k. CSN refused the counter terms that allowed any nation in DT to pay this tech. The counter was then taken off the table, and then CSN accepted it. but the offer was off the table due to CSN having refused (walked out of negotiations actually).[/b] -Was willing to negotiate even further.[b]- CSN was the one who walked out not DT. for a second time.[/b] DT: -Consistently lowered its offering to zero.[b]- DT was the one who proposed counter terms not CSN. DT did not walk out of the talks, unlike CSN. [/b] Who's trying hard here?[b]- CSN was the one who stubbornly stuck to DT having to pay 40k Tech total (in other words all of it) for a while at first. CSN was the one who had their gov members walk out separately, or altogether several times. you talk about how DT has handled themselves during negotiations, as if CSN has handled themselves any better. that is amusing:[/b] From the first set of logs in the OP- [22:18] <Goose|warmonger|> Okay. [22:19] <Goose|warmonger|> These are the terms. It matters not when you take it. [22:19] <Liz> The number remains the same Supa. Whether it happens now or in 3 weeks from now. Is that the point of disagreement? From 4th set of logs in OP- [20:12] <@Liz> Less than the 40k we wanted from your 2k nations initially. [20:12] <@Liz> It's gracious. Consider it such. [20:12] * Goose|warmonger| has left #channel2 [20:12] <TiTaN> I don't see why it has to come from 2k tech nations, though? [20:13] <@Liz> Goose has left the building. I guess we're done here. [20:31] <Gibsonator21> <~Goose|warmonger|> If he's sincere about working out a schedule to pay the reparations I'll return, if he wants to debate the merits of us wanting reps, I've got better things to do. [21:25] <Goose|warmonger|> 30k tech. from anywhere, with 10k form your 24 nations that have over 2,000 over a period of 6 months. [21:25] <Myworld[dt]> Balls in your court guys: 30k tech from anywhere, 10k purchased by DT sent to CSN, over a 6 month time frame. [21:25] * Goose|warmonger| has left #channel2 From 5th set of logs in OP- [22:54] <Goose|warmonger|> Where do we stand on a peace agreement. You'd offered 30k from anywhere and 10k internally, which we agreed to yesterday. [22:55] <Myworld[DT]> With you walking away from it wasn't an agreement [22:56] <Goose|warmonger|> I know, and I mentioned to TiTaN yesterday that we'd agree to it. Am I right in assuming that you no longer wish to agree to this? [23:00] <Goose|warmonger|> My apologies, but we did not leave with the intent of discussing it, but refusing it. [23:00] <Myworld[DT]> ok so it wasn't an agreement then [23:00] <Goose|warmonger|> No, it wasn't. [23:40] <Goose|warmonger|> I guess we don't have an agreement, and please note that my leaving means we don't have an agreement and we won't be discussing a lowering of terms any further. Please come find me when you're ready to agree to the terms. [23:40] * Goose|warmonger| has left #channel2 [23:40] * Gibsonator21 has left #channel2 [23:40] * Liz has left #channel2 [/quote] so now to more fully reply to you (damn, i said i wouldn't lower myself again), it looks like you are completely wrong in how CSN handles themselves. DT may have mishandled portions of the negotiations, but Goose thinks that playing some sort of hardass works (constantly walking out until we agree to CSN demands). Liz had an offnite one nite which happens, but if CSN were some sort of gods of diplomacy Goose or Gibby would have kindly asked her to leave. so now please take your ignorant head out of your ass and realize how wrong you are. [quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298159846' post='2638740'] Good thing I am neither of those things, nor do I prescribe to my own cult of personality. Likewise, I wouldn't expect everyone to know of the government switch since it wasn't announced at large. [/quote] i knew (since you stated in a reply to me that you were the new MoFA and Liz told me she got a promotion on IRC). i feel special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuronia Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) [quote][b][21:06] <Neuronia> wait you guys gave Liz[CSNotHere] a promotion? [/b] [21:06] <Goose|warmonger|> I wouldn't, but I've got furs/gold and have struggled through life. [21:06] <Goose|warmonger|> Yup. [21:06] <Neuronia> lol [21:06] <Rey[mobile]> this is !@#$@#$ horrible nevermind [21:06] <Xiphosis[GOD]> roooofl [b][21:06] <Goose|warmonger|> Telling DT to '$%&@ off' is written in our charter as an automatic promotion. [/b][/quote] Three cheers for diplomatic comportment! Really thrilled CSN is open to ending this conflict. Edited February 20, 2011 by Neuronia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Ozujsko Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 [quote name='Neuronia' timestamp='1298167609' post='2638857'] Three cheers for diplomatic comportment! Really thrilled CSN is open to ending this conflict. [/quote] Enter Penkala to tell us how CSN is classy and dignified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonator21 Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 [quote name='General Ozujsko' timestamp='1298167824' post='2638863'] Enter Penkala to tell us how CSN is classy and dignified. [/quote] So you don't !@#$%^&* in your IRC public channel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Ozujsko Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 [quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1298168133' post='2638866'] So you don't !@#$%^&* in your IRC public channel? [/quote] Just pointing out blatant hypocrisy and inconsistencies. DT was respectful in our public chan up until the extortionist terms. Since then, well, you know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonator21 Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 [quote name='General Ozujsko' timestamp='1298168925' post='2638895'] Just pointing out blatant hypocrisy and inconsistencies. DT was respectful in our public chan up until the extortionist terms. Since then, well, you know... [/quote] Good God, now you're twisting public channel jokes into "hypocrisy and inconsistencies"? *sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penkala Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1298165496' post='2638833'] so now to more fully reply to you (damn, i said i wouldn't lower myself again), it looks like you are completely wrong in how CSN handles themselves. DT may have mishandled portions of the negotiations, but Goose thinks that playing some sort of hardass works (constantly walking out until we agree to CSN demands). Liz had an offnite one nite which happens, but if CSN were some sort of gods of diplomacy Goose or Gibby would have kindly asked her to leave. so now please take your ignorant head out of your ass and realize how wrong you are. [/quote] [quote]CSN: -Relaxed terms on length of payment.- DT was the one who proposed this. -Relaxed terms on who in the alliance can pay.- This one is ambiguous. 30k could come from any source -Reduced DT's portion to only *10k tech*- which had to be paid by DT nations over 2k. CSN refused the counter terms that allowed any nation in DT to pay this tech. The counter was then taken off the table, and then CSN accepted it. but the offer was off the table due to CSN having refused (walked out of negotiations actually). -Was willing to negotiate even further.- CSN was the one who walked out not DT. for a second time. DT: -Consistently lowered its offering to zero.- DT was the one who proposed counter terms not CSN. DT did not walk out of the talks, unlike CSN. Who's trying hard here?- CSN was the one who stubbornly stuck to DT having to pay 40k Tech total (in other words all of it) for a while at first. CSN was the one who had their gov members walk out separately, or altogether several times. you talk about how DT has handled themselves during negotiations, as if CSN has handled themselves any better. that is amusing:[/quote] Ok, you're right. DT proposed a couple of the terms. CSN accepted them. What's your point? The fact is that CSN *lowered* their terms. This is a fact. Can't be disputed. Period. That proves that CSN is willing to work toward a decent solution. Or, like I said, work toward the middle. DT's response? "Zero tech." Not working toward the middle. Period. It doesn't matter who proposed what. In the end, CSN accepted the lowering of terms, DT didn't increase their willingness to accept them (i.e. meeting in the middle)... they decreased it (aka lowering terms.) Which is, you know, what I just said. I'm not wrong. The facts support me. CSN negotiated the terms down, and was willing to keep negotiating, until you came back with the complete BS terms of "you apologize." Speaking of allies controlling your affairs, why did you suddenly go from negotiating to following the hard-line response NoR has proposed of "not a single cent"? Could it be that NoR is controlling your alliance's affairs? NoRT, eh? Come up with some new arguments. I keep tearing yours apart. [quote]So your argument for them not getting decent terms is now 'DT were bad sports!'?? So basicly what you are saying is that DT had no right to be upset and call out CSNs !@#$%^&* after initial talks? I thought we covered that many many pages ago but I guess you like circular arguments. Bottom line Penkala, DT's response was directly related to how CSN initialy treated them when approached. So for you to take your line of 'spin' its like telling someone you are torturing that if they scream its their fault and thats why the torture will continue..... [/quote] My argument is that CSN is not going to (and should not) give in to the tactics DT is using. Running to the OWF, lying (through omission) about the peace terms, trying to hurt CSN's PR, refusing to negotiate in good faith... should not result in your enemy suddenly giving you white peace. If CSN were to respond to the tantrum DT's thrown by giving into their demands, it would only encourage the same behavior in the future. Just like giving people white peace has led to them believing they have a god-given right to attack any alliance they want and get away with it with no peace terms. CSN should be reducing terms right around now. But you don't give a screaming child the candy they're demanding. It sets a bad precedent, where all you have to do to get white peace is act completely undiplomatic to the victors. DT is ensuring that they do not receive white peace by making it impossible for CSN to offer it at this point in time. It's really that simple. Edited February 20, 2011 by Penkala Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varianz Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 [quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1298133975' post='2638449'] CSN has had several OOC things happen to them as a result of refusing to instantly give DT white peace. [/quote] If you're going to make that claim, you need to back it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penkala Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 [quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1298169463' post='2638902'] If you're going to make that claim, you need to back it up. [/quote] No I don't. I wouldn't lie about something like this. Also I hear even more DT lies in this thread will be revealed soon. I can't wait! If you're going to ask for the public's support, DT, you probably should stop lying to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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