A Dark Templar Announcement

[Xiao Weng]

[quote name='Fort Pitt' timestamp='1298058502' post='2637685']
There are no arguments to this, its fact.

And whats with italicizing random letters?
[/quote]

Isolate them.

[Fort Pitt]

What does NoR getting out of the war have to do with the fact that CSN is losing a war against an alliance roughly 1/4 its size?

[SpacingOutMan]

For those interested in the general NS trends...

Legacy: 7% lost
DT: 32.36% lost
CSN: 35.7% lost
LOSS: 48.4% lost <- Skewed upwards since RnR is also involved.

These take the stats from 1/30 and are truncated (naturally).

[Timeline]

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1297943343' post='2636587']
Speak for yourself, I've already declared war. I've been on GOONS' EoG list since before christmas, and I made TGE disband, I'll be damned if CSN isn't going to regret asking for tech.
[/quote]

I am sure your great nation caused TGE to disband and that CSN is hiding from the thought of your mighty nation coming down on this like a drop of rain on a rock.


[quote name='mmansfield68' timestamp='1297945008' post='2636599']
CSN hasn't won the war - the war is ongoing. We're just looking to end hostilities since the only reason we entered this war has been removed from the circumstances.

The Dark Templar is not defeated.
[/quote]

The reason for you entering may have gone, how ever it seems your reason for fighting still remains and with CSN demanding high reps why would you still look for peace ?, why not just fight until they admit defeat of your allies are capable of forcing CSN hand.

[twodivine]

[quote name='CptGodzilla' timestamp='1298035525' post='2637537']
Yeah, you demand an apology as well
[/quote]
It wasn't a demand. Hell it was really meant to be a gesture of to see if CSN was willing to say sorry to their allies, members, and friends that didn't like their original terms on extending this war out. If that included DT and Loss fine, if it didn't fine. It wasn't even something we were going to hold against them if they turned it down on doing. It was a chance for them to work on stepping up from the crappy demands and actions coming into talks. I even told them they didn't have too if you look at the logs. So that was clearly all up to them to do or not.

[Xiao Weng]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1298065365' post='2637755']
It wasn't a demand. Hell it was really meant to be a gesture of to see if CSN was willing to say sorry to their allies, members, and friends that didn't like their original terms on extending this war out. If that included DT and Loss fine, if it didn't fine. It wasn't even something we were going to hold against them if they turned it down on doing. It was a chance for them to work on stepping up from the crappy demands and actions coming into talks. I even told them they didn't have too if you look at the logs. So that was clearly all up to them to do or not.
[/quote]

By that point it seemed all talks had degenerated as it was. In hindsight, may have tried a better counteroffer - or perhaps not subscribed to the 'one time only' policies. They don't work well for peace talks.

But we could (and likely will) talk about 'what could've happened' all day.

[twodivine]

[quote name='Xiao Weng' timestamp='1298066119' post='2637762']
By that point it seemed all talks had degenerated as it was. In hindsight, may have tried a better counteroffer - or perhaps not subscribed to the 'one time only' policies. They don't work well for peace talks.

But we could (and likely will) talk about 'what could've happened' all day.
[/quote]
They walked away. They could of offered a counter, and we would of offered a counter if that wasn't acceptable. Isn't that negotiating? Then you keep going until both sides agree? And really we did counter when they copped an attitude about the apology and said they didn't have to do it. After that they walked away, no offers, no nothing but them leaving just like before when they weren't accepting an offer.

If they want to negotiate they know where we are. The door is open.

[Xiao Weng]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1298066545' post='2637764']
They walked away. They could of offered a counter, and we would of offered a counter if that wasn't acceptable. Isn't that negotiating? Then you keep going until both sides agree? And really we did counter when they copped an attitude about the apology and said they didn't have to do it. After that they walked away, no offers, no nothing but them leaving just like before when they weren't accepting an offer.

If they want to negotiate they know where we are. The door is open.
[/quote]

That goes back to the 'one time only' counteroffers. I don't make excuses nor do I make apologies, but I find it counterintuitive to say "You didn't answer so we're not doing that one anymore." It just seems like there's been no [i]real[/i] attempt at an equitable arrangement - 40,000 on one end, no terms on the other. An offer from the middle will still hurt, but that is the price one pays in war. Diplomacy, as any relationship, does take two - and it pains me to see neither one of you talking.

Personally I hope the Commonwealth decides 40,000 fresh techno beats applies here as well, but the extent of my words in their mouths ended in the first round of negotiation - right about the time I think you guys declared on [s]the CSN[/s] Legacy - which then took the terms I'd written (and I believe [s]CSN[/s] the array of people agreed with, though I can't substantiate at this time) off the table.

(If you didn't like haiku, you could've just [i]said something[/i])

Edited February 18, 2011 by Xiao Weng

[Desert Ratz]

[quote name='Xiao Weng' timestamp='1298067661' post='2637776']
Personally I hope the Commonwealth decides 40,000 fresh techno beats applies here as well, but the extent of my words in their mouths ended in the first round of negotiation - right about the time I think you guys declared on the CSN
[/quote]


DT declared on Legacy. Not CSN.

[Xiao Weng]

[quote name='Desert Ratz' timestamp='1298068500' post='2637780']
DT declared on Legacy. Not CSN.
[/quote]

So be it, I'll amend. Regardless, I believe the terms were back off once DT declared, and there were counter-declarations, and so on.

[twodivine]

[quote name='Xiao Weng' timestamp='1298069083' post='2637785']
So be it, I'll amend. Regardless, I believe the terms were back off once DT declared, and there were counter-declarations, and so on.
[/quote]
We only declared on 1 alliance and that was Legacy. CSN declared on us. There has been no counter-declarations on DT or by DT.

Please look into the situation more before you continue to post on the subject.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Xiao Weng' timestamp='1298067661' post='2637776']
That goes back to the 'one time only' counteroffers. I don't make excuses nor do I make apologies, but I find it counterintuitive to say "You didn't answer so we're not doing that one anymore." It just seems like there's been no [i]real[/i] attempt at an equitable arrangement - 40,000 on one end, no terms on the other. An offer from the middle will still hurt, but that is the price one pays in war. Diplomacy, as any relationship, does take two - and it pains me to see neither one of you talking.

Personally I hope the Commonwealth decides 40,000 fresh techno beats applies here as well, but the extent of my words in their mouths ended in the first round of negotiation - right about the time I think you guys declared on [s]the CSN[/s] Legacy - which then took the terms I'd written (and I believe [s]CSN[/s] the array of people agreed with, though I can't substantiate at this time) off the table.

(If you didn't like haiku, you could've just [i]said something[/i])
[/quote]

well there was a real attempt at finding a middle. Hell DT kept the 40k tech term and countered with 30k from any source (including outside sources) and 10k direct from any DT member. this was not good enough for CSN so they left, thus refusing the counter. after 30 hours and, it appears, much pressure and talks with other alliances; they decided to accept the offer they had refused 30 hours previously. they had lost their chance for that offer. negotiations are back and forth but CSN does not appear willing to do that to much, so why should DT be the one to give everything? and before anyone states "but DT is losing", there is not to much evidence to back that statement up.

[Sarmatian Empire]

I told myself I wasnt gonna post anymore...

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1298070796' post='2637808']
this was not good enough for CSN so they left, thus refusing the counter. after 30 hours and, it appears, much pressure and talks with other alliances; they decided to accept the offer they had refused 30 hours previously.[/quote]

Now Now...CSN had given there reasoning for this, stating that they were talking to their gov about the idea and while I understand it wasnt said at your meeting with them. I mean...if we dont take what they say as truth, why should we believe anything you guys say.


[quote]so why should DT be the one to give everything? and before anyone states "but DT is losing", there is not to much evidence to back that statement up.
[/quote]

The first part confuses me...to you mean give everything as in reps? Because if thats the case it's because...your the one in the war...

The second part there is plenty of evidence. Assuming that SOM's percentages above are correct I'd say CSN is winning. You're pretty close in percentage, but it's a hell of a lot easier to take NS from a alliance of CSN's side, rather than your size.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1298071959' post='2637823']
The second part there is plenty of evidence. Assuming that SOM's percentages above are correct I'd say CSN is winning. You're pretty close in percentage, but it's a hell of a lot easier to take NS from a alliance of CSN's side, rather than your size.
[/quote]

Both sides can make claims that they are winning, which is all and fine up until the end of the war when a victor is actually decided. That is unless white peace is attained, then both parties just kind of walk away. The percentages above indicate the total amount of NS lost for the entire alliance. Just from analysis between DT and CSN, there are discrepancies between "clear winners" because there is no clear winner or someone winning. The percentages are skewed slightly in DT's favor because they are smaller, therefore a smaller sample to pool from, but that skewness doesn't dictate that CSN is winning. It's close as it stands right now and is teetering back and forth.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1298071959' post='2637823']
I told myself I wasnt gonna post anymore...



Now Now...CSN had given there reasoning for this, stating that they were talking to their gov about the idea and while I understand it wasnt said at your meeting with them. I mean...if we dont take what they say as truth, why should we believe anything you guys say.[/quote]

if that is the case, you do realize that Goose himself stated that CSN had initially refused the counter offer.



[quote]The first part confuses me...to you mean give everything as in reps? Because if thats the case it's because...your the one in the war...

The second part there is plenty of evidence. Assuming that SOM's percentages above are correct I'd say CSN is winning. You're pretty close in percentage, but it's a hell of a lot easier to take NS from a alliance of CSN's side, rather than your size.
[/quote]

i meant give all in negotiations. negotiations are supposed to be give and take. CSN does not really give at all. if it is easier to take NS off of an alliance CSN's size, then that means CSN will continue to lose more NS than DT and sooner or later will have to give up on the idea of demanding reps. also what SOM said.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298072393' post='2637831']
Both sides can make claims that they are winning, which is all and fine up until the end of the war when a victor is actually decided. That is unless white peace is attained, then both parties just kind of walk away. The percentages above indicate the total amount of NS lost for the entire alliance. Just from analysis between DT and CSN, there are discrepancies between "clear winners" because there is no clear winner or someone winning. The percentages are skewed slightly in DT's favor because they are smaller, therefore a smaller sample to pool from, but that skewness doesn't dictate that CSN is winning. It's close as it stands right now and is teetering back and forth.
[/quote]
Then I'd say the winner is different for each person who can form there own opinion

[quote]if that is the case, you do realize that Goose himself stated that CSN had initially refused the counter offer.
[/quote]

Did he know? I cant say I remember, after 50 pages my brain starts to say F U Sarm

[quote]if it is easier to take NS off of an alliance CSN's size, then that means CSN will continue to lose more NS than DT and sooner or later will have to give up on the idea of demanding reps[/quote] Thats more in an alliances mindset I'd say. As CSN continues to the you will gradually start doing less and less damage NS wise. As far as abandoning reps though, I'd say that would depend on the rep asking alliances willingness to rebuild from such damage...

Am I speaking out my ass or is it just me?

Edited February 18, 2011 by Sarmatian Empire

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1298072927' post='2637842']
Then I'd say the winner is different for each person who can form there own opinion
[/quote]

You know I still love ya man. I just like looking at it impartially so my judgment isn't too-too biased.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298073048' post='2637844']
You know I still love ya man. I just like looking at it impartially so my judgment isn't too-too biased.
[/quote]
I do as well, but I try to use logic when I think it's appropriate

[Xiao Weng]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1298070272' post='2637802']
We only declared on 1 alliance and that was Legacy. CSN declared on us. There has been no counter-declarations on DT or by DT.

Please look into the situation more before you continue to post on the subject.
[/quote]

Look. I understand that you're angry, but don't get prissy with [i]me[/i], all right? I'm all for finding an equitable solution between you both, and it's talk like this that torpedoes it. I made a mistake, I amended when I was called on it.

You should know better.

[b]Dochartaigh[/b]: I don't believe you should give everything. Far from it; as I said I have a happy hope that you too will have to provide 40,000 techno beats (or perhaps we'll just get down with the funk, and go from there), but it just seems like the only counteroffer was the 30,000 which was withdrawn. If it had stayed on the table, well we certainly wouldn't be [i]here[/i], but I also think that if you truly want peace, then a lowball offer higher than white peace may be necessary.

I don't actually [i]know[/i], because for some strange reason CSN doesn't want me around the proceedings. Yet.

Moo hoo ha ha ha.

[General Ozujsko]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1298071959' post='2637823']
Now Now...CSN had given there reasoning for this, stating that they were talking to their gov about the idea and while I understand it wasnt said at your meeting with them. I mean...if we dont take what they say as truth, why should we believe anything you guys say.
[/quote]

I still don't understand this as a "reason"...it seems like the weakest of excuses.

[list]
[*]DT makes a counter-offer.
[*]CSN refuses and walks out of the talks with no indication that they were going to talk it over.
[*]CSN waits 30 hours, during which - they talk to some guy on the Maroon team.
[*]CSN tells us 30 hours after the walked out of talks that they are prepared to accept the terms.
[*]DT informs CSN that the offer has been off the table. Suggests white peace and an optional apology.
[*]DT is being "arrogant" and "non-cooperative" during negotiations.
[/list]

2 items to mention here:

1) If we were to truly engage in negotiations, then CSN can't seriously believe they can just accept an offer that they have already refused and is now off the table.

2) If CSN govt is to be accepted as a competent organization, then they can't pull !@#$ like they did. "Hold on, I need 30 hours to discuss this with yet another guy not in my alliance."

WORST. ALLIANCE. EVER.

Edited February 19, 2011 by General Ozujsko

[Goose]

[quote name='General Ozujsko' timestamp='1298076267' post='2637887']
I still don't understand this as a "reason"...it seems like the weakest of excuses.

[list]
[*]DT makes a counter-offer.
[*]CSN refuses and walks out of the talks with no indication that they were going to talk it over.
[*]CSN waits 30 hours, during which - they talk to some guy on the Maroon team.
[*]CSN tells us 30 hours after the walked out of talks that they are prepared to accept the terms.
[*]DT informs CSN that the offer has been off the table. Suggests white peace and an optional apology.
[*]DT is being "arrogant" and "non-cooperative" during negotiations.
[/list]

2 items to mention here:

1) If we were to truly engage in negotiations, then CSN can't seriously believe they can just accept an offer that they have already refused and is now off the table.

2) If CSN govt is to be accepted as a competent organization, then they can't pull !@#$ like they did. "Hold on, I need 30 hours to discuss this with yet another guy not in my alliance."

WORST. ALLIANCE. EVER.
[/quote]
1) Why not? It was 30 hours.

2) Are you dense? Shamedmonkey is the defacto leader of Greenland Republic, your ally. That's why he asked me to reconsider. It was the because of the old Maroon ties we share that I even spoke with him and did reconsider at his request.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Goose

[General Ozujsko]

[quote name='Goose' timestamp='1298076914' post='2637891']
1) Why not? It was 30 hours.

2) Are you dense? Shamedmonkey is the defacto leader of Greenland Republic, your ally. That's why he asked me to reconsider. It was the because of the old Maroon ties we share that I even spoke with him and did reconsider at his request.
[/quote]


1) 30 hours doesn't change the fact that [i]you walked out of talks and refused the offer.[/i]

2) Don't mistake what I said as an insult against him. There's a difference between consulting with allies and CSN needing other, more competent individuals to hold it's hand.

[the rebel]

[quote name='General Ozujsko' timestamp='1298076267' post='2637887']
2) If CSN govt is to be accepted as a competent organization, then they can't pull !@#$ like they did. "Hold on, I need 30 hours to discuss this with yet another guy not in my alliance."[/quote]

Hmmm that has been one thing that has confused me about this whole situation, is why does CSN goverment have to talk to allies about negotiating the reqiured reps, arent they capable of thinking for their selfs sbout what outcome they want from a peripheral war

[Centurius]

[quote name='Goose' timestamp='1298076914' post='2637891']
1) Why not? It was 30 hours.

2) Are you dense? Shamedmonkey is the defacto leader of Greenland Republic, your ally. That's why he asked me to reconsider. It was the because of the old Maroon ties we share that I even spoke with him and did reconsider at his request.
[/quote]

When you leave the negotiation table without giving any indication it is to discuss terms it does send a message you refuse the offer. Likewise it is also common that when an offer gets refused the first time and more damage is done that the same offer is no longer valid.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Xiao Weng' timestamp='1298075890' post='2637883']
Look. I understand that you're angry, but don't get prissy with [i]me[/i], all right? I'm all for finding an equitable solution between you both, and it's talk like this that torpedoes it. I made a mistake, I amended when I was called on it.

You should know better.

[b]Dochartaigh[/b]: I don't believe you should give everything. Far from it; as I said I have a happy hope that you too will have to provide 40,000 techno beats (or perhaps we'll just get down with the funk, and go from there), but it just seems like the only counteroffer was the 30,000 which was withdrawn. If it had stayed on the table, well we certainly wouldn't be [i]here[/i], but I also think that if you truly want peace, then a lowball offer higher than white peace may be necessary.

I don't actually [i]know[/i], because for some strange reason CSN doesn't want me around the proceedings. Yet.

Moo hoo ha ha ha.
[/quote]

well that is for the gov to decide. in the meantime i am having fun blasting nations.