A Dark Templar Announcement

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1298008529' post='2637390']
If that's the case, then both sides should try to reopen talks and find an agreeable solution. It looked like it was white peace or nothing based on the posts here.
[/quote]

I agree and am looking forward to CSN .gov coming to the party and having the same epiphany......

[MaGneT]

[quote name='mmansfield68' timestamp='1298009020' post='2637401']
Well, for our part - we were more than happy with the idea of Myworld running down the street buck-naked withan "I love CSN" poster, as opposed to any tech deal, to establish a lasting peace. But no....
[/quote]
Speak for yourself

[Sarmatian Empire]

Sorry this has to be posted.

[quote name='juanveldez' timestamp='1298000919' post='2637250']
Why enter into talks with someone whom you know isn't even part of the alliance that you are dealing with? And, what is it that you hope to achieve in the long run by dragging all this out onto OWF?
[/quote]

[quote]you do realize that CSN stated Xiph was allowed to speak on their behalf right? i would believe that is why our gov would continue to speak with Xiph.
[/quote]

[quote]Ummm...we are dealing with CSN and Legacy. I see by your squirely ignorance that you didn't read the OP. So, go back, read that, and report back to me.
[/quote]

Maybe you two should get on the same page? Unless manfield over here thinks Xiph isn't the leader of GOD. I'll clue you in here buddy, DT is claiming to be talking with Xiph about the matter since he was in the initial rep talks, whether this is true I dont know and I dont care, but the point is...that would be dealing with CSN, Legacy, and GOD. Maybe you should get your !@#$ straight before you go around insulting people? Talk about ignorance....

[CptGodzilla]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1298008140' post='2637386']
That's the crazy thing there Jaunveldez, [b]we've never said White Peace or nothing[/b]. Negotiations are just that trying to find something exceptable for both sides and they can't with out leaving the channel. If they want to find an end then it takes some work and effort. I'd welcome CSN to try and work on establishing peace.
[/quote]

Yeah, you demand an apology as well

[Fulgrim]

[quote name='CptGodzilla' timestamp='1298035525' post='2637537']
Yeah, you demand an apology as well
[/quote]

So apology = £40k tech?

Sorry seems to be the hardest word.
[img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005J713.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1298008529' post='2637390']
If that's the case, then both sides should try to reopen talks and find an agreeable solution. It looked like it was white peace or nothing based on the posts here.
[/quote]
I believe phones have been ringing but people seem to be busy and not answering.

[quote name='CptGodzilla' timestamp='1298035525' post='2637537']
Yeah, you demand an apology as well
[/quote]
You know what zilla the apology in all honesty was about as outrageous as 40k tech. CSN demanded something ridiculouse then DT did. Negotiations are just that negotiations. Best case scenerio is CSN walks away unhappy and DT walks away unhappy that would be ideal that would mean both sides give a little.

I believe this could be settled just need to get together.

HI LIZ

[Jtkode]

To be totally honest with you, I am disappointing in the way how liz handled these war talks:

[23:09] <Liz> We really dont care. I think you're missing that point.
[23:09] <Goose|warmonger|> But you want an apology from us?
[23:10] <Liz> We're not going to do that. Clearly.
[23:10] <Liz> Asking for an apology? Really? Are you that upset?
[23:10] <Liz> Grow up. It's a friggin game of war. You lose you pay for it.
[23:10] <Liz> Good, then we're done here right?
[23:10] <Liz> You refused terms?
[23:10] <Liz> We refused your Bull%^^&**?

I think you all should have treated DT with a little more respect from the spot, I have had my own dealings with them, and I can assure each and every person on Bob that they have a lot more experience and are smarter then anyone has given them credit for those logs. 40k tech is ridiculous, I'm surprised CSN's allies ever supported this. I'm would never be one to give reps off of treaty obligations, I hope this situation gets quickly resolved.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Jtkode

[juanveldez]

This could very easily be settled. But, allow me to play a little devils advocate here. Did anyone stop to think about the opposing view? There have been many posts liking CSN to NPO. Now historically NPO was tyrannical and evil, and they deserved what they got. Now show me where in history CSN was the same? Furthermore, if you can not find it in history then you can not paint the two with the same brush.

Now to the issue of the reps. Did you ever stop to consider that they are not able to back down from them now? By going public and getting the whole world mad at them you have successfully painted them the villain and cemented them into the corner that they find themselves in. To a point where they can't successfully withdraw the reps and not look like a donkey's rear so they must stay the course, and be the part of the villain, which will only cause more hatred and as many have so kindly pointed out will end with the eventual rolling of CSN.

Now remembering that these are my opinions and mine alone. I honestly think that as was said just prior that neither side is going to be 100 percent happy with the end result. And, that both sides need to grow up a bit and as history has shown swallow their foolish pride and get down to the bones of the issue.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='juanveldez' timestamp='1298045614' post='2637594']
This could very easily be settled. But, allow me to play a little devils advocate here. Did anyone stop to think about the opposing view? There have been many posts liking CSN to NPO. Now historically NPO was tyrannical and evil, and they deserved what they got. Now show me where in history CSN was the same? Furthermore, if you can not find it in history then you can not paint the two with the same brush.

Now to the issue of the reps. Did you ever stop to consider that they are not able to back down from them now? By going public and getting the whole world mad at them you have successfully painted them the villain and cemented them into the corner that they find themselves in. To a point where they can't successfully withdraw the reps and not look like a donkey's rear so they must stay the course, and be the part of the villain, which will only cause more hatred and as many have so kindly pointed out will end with the eventual rolling of CSN.

Now remembering that these are my opinions and mine alone. I honestly think that as was said just prior that neither side is going to be 100 percent happy with the end result. And, that both sides need to grow up a bit and as history has shown swallow their foolish pride and get down to the bones of the issue.
[/quote]

they can easily back away from the reps. they chose not to long before we went to the world. they look worse by keeping the reps on the table. if they back down now, they can at least salvage some reputation. This salvage operation could put an end to CSN being rolled. a few will see CSN as being weak for backing down, most will simply move on. and you seem to forget that it was DT who bit their pride by trying to negotiate using the 40k tech figure. CSN has not backed down from their pride once.

DT got tired of playing games and said $%&@ it and went with the white peace option. frankly, i hope we stick with the white peace option until either CSN backs down or gets rolled. but that is just my opinion. this could have been settled 2 weeks ago had CSN any intelligence, reason, and logic.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='juanveldez' timestamp='1298045614' post='2637594']
This could very easily be settled. But, allow me to play a little devils advocate here. Did anyone stop to think about the opposing view? There have been many posts liking CSN to NPO. Now historically NPO was tyrannical and evil, and they deserved what they got. Now show me where in history CSN was the same? Furthermore, if you can not find it in history then you can not paint the two with the same brush.

Now to the issue of the reps. Did you ever stop to consider that they are not able to back down from them now? By going public and getting the whole world mad at them you have successfully painted them the villain and cemented them into the corner that they find themselves in. To a point where they can't successfully withdraw the reps and not look like a donkey's rear so they must stay the course, and be the part of the villain, which will only cause more hatred and as many have so kindly pointed out will end with the eventual rolling of CSN.

Now remembering that these are my opinions and mine alone. I honestly think that as was said just prior that neither side is going to be 100 percent happy with the end result. And, that both sides need to grow up a bit and as history has shown swallow their foolish pride and get down to the bones of the issue.
[/quote]

Taking 40,000 tech from a peripheral alliance surely is evil is it not? That means they are sort of doing what people disliked back then. ( Because pacifica was more evil then us doesn't really hold good here tbh )

If they do back down from it now and have a good FA team, I believe most of the fallout could be turned over ( which is what I believe the apology was meant for ). Seems rather a real face saver looking at in the long run. They are in a corner they made for themselves no one else did it for them, and the balls in their court if they want to get out of it.

[size="1"]*note: Forgive me if I come of to harsh. [/size]

Edited February 18, 2011 by Sir Keshav IV

[juanveldez]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1298046728' post='2637603']
Taking 40,000 tech from a peripheral alliance surely is evil is it not? That means they are sort of doing what people disliked back then. ( Because pacifica was more evil then us doesn't really hold good here tbh )

If they do back down from it now and have a good FA team, I believe most of the fallout could be turned over ( which is what I believe the apology was meant for ). Seems rather a real face saver looking at in the long run. They are in a corner they made for themselves no one else did it for them, and the balls in their court if they want to get out of it.

[size="1"]*note: Forgive me if I come of to harsh. [/size]
[/quote]

No not harsh at all. That being said the pacifica argument doesn't hold water in the reverse either. You can't compare one bad act to years of bad acts and aggression. As for the rest well the ball is really in both of their courts to solve this and really the thread has become moot as only Legacy, CSN and DT should be the ones working anything out.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='juanveldez' timestamp='1298048559' post='2637612']
No not harsh at all. That being said the pacifica argument doesn't hold water in the reverse either. You can't compare one bad act to years of bad acts and aggression. As for the rest well the ball is really in both of their courts to solve this and really the thread has become moot as only Legacy, CSN and DT should be the ones working anything out.
[/quote]

DT and Legacy have tried. it is CSN who failed to do a damn thing worthwhile. thus, this thread was born (i suspect partly to combat PenkLOLa's little blog despite Penk's arguments in said blog being utterly destroyed).

i don't honestly care about the Pacifica argument, though i do agree that this could be seen as them beginning upon said path. problem with that is it gives way to much credit to CSN. it took mad skills from NPO to do what they did, CSN is nothing in comparison to the NPO of old. this little try here, while cute, is simply ridiculous. CSN has nothing whatsoever that can honestly bring DT to the point of being forced to take 40k tech. The reason DT said okay before, was simple. the reason for the war was long gone and instead of continuing to fight when the reason is gone, we went for peace. We did not ever accept the original set which was 40k all from DT. nor did we ever accept the revised which was 30k from any source (including outside) and 10k from all DT nations with 2k+ tech.

the reason for that was, we were never surrendering. if we were surrendering, we would have accepted whatever terms they wanted initially because we would have been to the point of complete defeat. as it were, we simply wanted out of the war since the reason was gone. if you have not noticed, DT was nowhere close to being defeated and the drop in CSN's NS pretty much shows this to be true.

the ball is in CSN's court. all they need to do is back down, accept the white peace, and move on.

[mindbullet]

[quote name='juanveldez' timestamp='1298045614' post='2637594']
This could very easily be settled. But, allow me to play a little devils advocate here. Did anyone stop to think about the opposing view? There have been many posts liking CSN to NPO. Now historically NPO was tyrannical and evil, and they deserved what they got. Now show me where in history CSN was the same? Furthermore, if you can not find it in history then you can not paint the two with the same brush.

Now to the issue of the reps. Did you ever stop to consider that they are not able to back down from them now? By going public and getting the whole world mad at them you have successfully painted them the villain and cemented them into the corner that they find themselves in. To a point where they can't successfully withdraw the reps and not look like a donkey's rear so they must stay the course, and be the part of the villain, which will only cause more hatred and as many have so kindly pointed out will end with the eventual rolling of CSN.

Now remembering that these are my opinions and mine alone. I honestly think that as was said just prior that neither side is going to be 100 percent happy with the end result. And, that both sides need to grow up a bit and as history has shown swallow their foolish pride and get down to the bones of the issue.
[/quote]

I believe regardless if CSN feels "painted into corner" or not, the community does not wish to see peace with reps such as these established as acceptable. DT could have posted those logs alone without commentary and we'd still be at this same juncture. Even if DT was being "cheeky" in their negotiations, this is not the main war front and asking for reparations here is up surd. They helped an ally they were asked to help (which seems to be a running trait in DT's alliance chains) and regardless of what peace may have been on the table for LoSS, no one was leaving until everyone one got peace. In fact, why would LoSS agree to a peace just for them? It would only serve to help CSN carry out more efficient wars on LoSS's allies. Such a peace's only result would be to divide and conquer.

As for pride, I truly think it is CSN's leadership's pride that is the issue, after all they got the PR black eye. They could just drop the reps and peace out of this front and go have fun on other more important fronts. I will have no issue applauding them for coming around to their senses and bringing an amicable end to this war. DT certainly has pride in themselves, but yet again I don't believe they will allow this type of "peace" to be established as acceptable behavior, which benefits countless alliances besides themselves.

Here's to a white peace for all sides involved *takes shot.* Hey... don't look at me like that... its five o'clock somewhere... I don't care that its before noon... its my day off!

[pezstar]

[quote name='juanveldez' timestamp='1298045614' post='2637594']
This could very easily be settled. But, allow me to play a little devils advocate here. Did anyone stop to think about the opposing view? There have been many posts liking CSN to NPO. Now historically NPO was tyrannical and evil, and they deserved what they got. Now show me where in history CSN was the same? Furthermore, if you can not find it in history then you can not paint the two with the same brush.

Now to the issue of the reps. Did you ever stop to consider that they are not able to back down from them now? By going public and getting the whole world mad at them you have successfully painted them the villain and cemented them into the corner that they find themselves in. To a point where they can't successfully withdraw the reps and not look like a donkey's rear so they must stay the course, and be the part of the villain, which will only cause more hatred and as many have so kindly pointed out will end with the eventual rolling of CSN.

Now remembering that these are my opinions and mine alone. I honestly think that as was said just prior that neither side is going to be 100 percent happy with the end result. And, that both sides need to grow up a bit and as history has shown swallow their foolish pride and get down to the bones of the issue.
[/quote]

A few years ago, Valhalla tried to force STA into some truly horrible peace terms. We called them out publicly and they ended up being embarrassed enough that they were reduced. And Valhalla looked good for reducing them, not awful.

Edit: Just as a note, STA has fought CSN twice now, and we've always found them to be reasonable, fair folks. We're really surprised by this 40,000 tech thing, and a little concerned. It's just so out of character. Good on DT for saying no to it. We would have, too.

Edited February 18, 2011 by pezstar

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='juanveldez' timestamp='1298048559' post='2637612']
No not harsh at all. That being said the pacifica argument doesn't hold water in the reverse either. You can't compare one bad act to years of bad acts and aggression. As for the rest well the ball is really in both of their courts to solve this and really the thread has become moot as only Legacy, CSN and DT should be the ones working anything out.
[/quote]

This one bad act could set a precedent for the former cycle to repeat itself which is why people are complaining. The ball is in CSN's court actually not DT's. It's CSN who declined the peace offer and are not willing to negotiate from what I understand.

[SpacingOutMan]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'd say "less QQ, more pew pew", but it seems that the situation has gone from tender bruise to a pulsing sore with rather grimy pus crusting its edges. Without even recognizing the spin presented (where "spin" applies to both sides of the aisle), we're at war, the temperature outside is most likely a toasty twelve million degrees on the now-molten-mass of Bob, and we no longer have to worry about snow.

Count your blessings, because I sure as Hell hate snow (notice the ironic pun? )

In all seriousness though, as flattering as it is to be compared to the military might of Pacifica during VietFAN, it's a rather fallacious analogy for a multitude of reasons not relevant to this discussion (though just to point out the context between this and then are, in of itself, entirely different). Decry us if you'd like, praise us if you'd like, but in retrospect, the only opinions that matter to us aren't the peanut gallery, but rather our allies (more so the ones who are engaged) and DT. Anyone outside of that distinct group: your opinion is duly noted, but we just really don't care. The fact that we have not caved into the moralist the peanut gallery is evident of this, though it's always a good time to see the usual faces coming out of the woodwork and act like the world really gives a damn about what they have to say. Could we be shooting ourselves in the foot? Sure, but unless you are one of my allies, DT, or close friends, I don't care for what you have to say.

[OOC: Sup, seems real life has decided to let me back into CN politics.]

[hizzy]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298054139' post='2637652']
In all seriousness though, as flattering as it is to be compared to the military might of Pacifica during VietFAN[/quote]

Don't kid yourself. A fraction of the competence but the same sense of greed.

[quote]Could we be shooting ourselves in the foot? Sure, but unless you are one of my allies, DT, or close friends, I don't care for what you have to say.[/quote]

Oh how many times we've heard that before. I'll make sure to put this one on the back burner so you can eat it later.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1298055532' post='2637658']
Don't kid yourself. A fraction of the competence but the same sense of greed.[/quote]

I'm not the one who made the comparisons. Blame them, not me.

[quote]Oh how many times we've heard that before. I'll make sure to put this one on the back burner so you can eat it later.
[/quote]

Cool story bro. I look forward to it.

[NLights]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298054139' post='2637652']
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'd say "less QQ, more pew pew", but it seems that the situation has gone from tender bruise to a pulsing sore with rather grimy pus crusting its edges. Without even recognizing the spin presented (where "spin" applies to both sides of the aisle), we're at war, the temperature outside is most likely a toasty twelve million degrees on the now-molten-mass of Bob, and we no longer have to worry about snow.

Count your blessings, because I sure as Hell hate snow (notice the ironic pun? )

In all seriousness though, as flattering as it is to be compared to the military might of Pacifica during VietFAN, it's a rather fallacious analogy for a multitude of reasons not relevant to this discussion (though just to point out the context between this and then are, in of itself, entirely different). Decry us if you'd like, praise us if you'd like, but in retrospect, the only opinions that matter to us aren't the peanut gallery, but rather our allies (more so the ones who are engaged) and DT. Anyone outside of that distinct group: your opinion is duly noted, but we just really don't care. The fact that we have not caved into the moralist the peanut gallery is evident of this, though it's always a good time to see the usual faces coming out of the woodwork and act like the world really gives a damn about what they have to say. Could we be shooting ourselves in the foot? Sure, but unless you are one of my allies, DT, or close friends, I don't care for what you have to say.

[OOC: Sup, seems real life has decided to let me back into CN politics.]
[/quote]


Alright Matthew PK, saving this one for later.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298054139' post='2637652']
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'd say "less QQ, more pew pew", but it seems that the situation has gone from tender bruise to a pulsing sore with rather grimy pus crusting its edges. Without even recognizing the spin presented (where "spin" applies to both sides of the aisle), we're at war, the temperature outside is most likely a toasty twelve million degrees on the now-molten-mass of Bob, and we no longer have to worry about snow.

Count your blessings, because I sure as Hell hate snow (notice the ironic pun? )

In all seriousness though, as flattering as it is to be compared to the military might of Pacifica during VietFAN, it's a rather fallacious analogy for a multitude of reasons not relevant to this discussion (though just to point out the context between this and then are, in of itself, entirely different). Decry us if you'd like, praise us if you'd like, but in retrospect, the only opinions that matter to us aren't the peanut gallery, but rather our allies (more so the ones who are engaged) and DT. Anyone outside of that distinct group: your opinion is duly noted, but we just really don't care. The fact that we have not caved into the moralist the peanut gallery is evident of this, though it's always a good time to see the usual faces coming out of the woodwork and act like the world really gives a damn about what they have to say. Could we be shooting ourselves in the foot? Sure, but unless you are one of my allies, DT, or close friends, I don't care for what you have to say.

[OOC: Sup, seems real life has decided to let me back into CN politics.]
[/quote]


while i can see where you are coming from, in most cases it is usually a bad idea to reject the opinion of the "peanut gallery". why? simple, at some point in the future, they may no longer simply be the peanut gallery and as is normal for CN, memories are long. allies, close friends, and your direct opponent of course should have their opinions weighted more heavily than the current peanut gallery, but the peanut gallery should have weight as well. particularly given your close ties to the likes of PB/DH.

it may be realpoliticking at this point, but that is better than nothing. the next war ya'll might end up in (talking overall not just the CSN front), may not go nearly as well and if that is true, then these terms and set of negotiations will come back to haunt CSN.

we have seen repeatedly want happens to those who maintain this approach.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1298056450' post='2637666']
while i can see where you are coming from, in most cases it is usually a bad idea to reject the opinion of the "peanut gallery". why? simple, at some point in the future, they may no longer simply be the peanut gallery and as is normal for CN, memories are long. allies, close friends, and your direct opponent of course should have their opinions weighted more heavily than the current peanut gallery, but the peanut gallery should have weight as well. particularly given your close ties to the likes of PB/DH.[/quote]

Aye, I completely agree (I am a huge diplomacy buff, at least anyone who actually knows me). However, I left "and friends" in there for a particular reason. Our friends know who they are, but at this point, the same results end up showing up: there will be a group of people who still likes us and a group that doesn't. So maybe my statement was brash? I do keep the peanut gallery's opinion (collectively) in mind, but I also do not plan on letting it affect my convictions either. Obviously DT is on the opposite end of CSN right now since we are at war, but even you all are steadfast to your convictions (perhaps for different reasons no doubt) and wouldn't jump a second away from that pride.

[quote]it may be realpoliticking at this point, but that is better than nothing. the next war ya'll might end up in (talking overall not just the CSN front), may not go nearly as well and if that is true, then these terms and set of negotiations will come back to haunt CSN.[/quote]

I have thought about that and it does hold its consequences. I can only say that I am dedicated to CSN, no matter what, and even a set of terms will not deter my loyalty to the alliance. With that said, we've seen that sort of thing time and time again (Karma, etc.) so we'll see what happens in the coming discussions (just a heads up, I am the MoFA [again]... I know, only a crap alliance like CSN does that). There will, eventually, be a resolution; it's just a matter of which side (or maybe even both) comes out happy.

[quote]we have seen repeatedly want happens to those who maintain this approach.
[/quote]

Quite true.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298057030' post='2637675']
Aye, I completely agree (I am a huge diplomacy buff, at least anyone who actually knows me). However, I left "and friends" in there for a particular reason. Our friends know who they are, but at this point, the same results end up showing up: there will be a group of people who still likes us and a group that doesn't. So maybe my statement was brash? I do keep the peanut gallery's opinion (collectively) in mind, but I also do not plan on letting it affect my convictions either. Obviously DT is on the opposite end of CSN right now since we are at war, but even you all are steadfast to your convictions (perhaps for different reasons no doubt) and wouldn't jump a second away from that pride.[/quote]

understandable. there are times when certain segments of the peanut gallery (because let's face it, it is usually divided) are against whatever convictions i hold. so i can understand this.

[quote]I have thought about that and it does hold its consequences. I can only say that I am dedicated to CSN, no matter what, and even a set of terms will not deter my loyalty to the alliance. With that said, we've seen that sort of thing time and time again (Karma, etc.) so we'll see what happens in the coming discussions (just a heads up, I am the MoFA [again]... I know, only a crap alliance like CSN does that). There will, eventually, be a resolution; it's just a matter of which side (or maybe even both) comes out happy.[/quote]

loyalty is always an admirable quality, i can't fault you for that. i was loyal to Polaris despite being heavily against a couple of actions they took while i was a member. also congrats on your appointment (taking it is an appointment, unless ya'll hold really quick elections. please correct me if i am wrong)

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1298057686' post='2637681']
understandable. there are times when certain segments of the peanut gallery (because let's face it, it is usually divided) are against whatever convictions i hold. so i can understand this.[/quote]

And who says opponents can't agree on anything? Granted I just jumped in on the fray.



[quote]loyalty is always an admirable quality, i can't fault you for that. i was loyal to Polaris despite being heavily against a couple of actions they took while i was a member. also congrats on your appointment (taking it is an appointment, unless ya'll hold really quick elections. please correct me if i am wrong)
[/quote]

Thanks. Either way, at the very least we can all say "I fought this war and all I got was a bunch more casualties".

[Fort Pitt]

[quote name='CptGodzilla' timestamp='1297947111' post='2636613']
Oh god p[i]l[/i]ease d[i]o[/i]n't say that. P[i]l[/i]ease do[i]n[/i]'t. There are c[i]o[/i]untless a[i]r[/i]gument[i]s[/i] and co[i]u[/i]nte[i]r[/i] a[i]r[/i]gum[i]en[/i]ts somewhere in the mi[i]d[/i]dl[i]e[/i] of this th[i]re[/i]a[i]d[/i].
[/quote]
There are no arguments to this, its fact.

And whats with italicizing random letters?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298058216' post='2637684']
And who says opponents can't agree on anything? Granted I just jumped in on the fray.





Thanks. Either way, at the very least we can all say "I fought this war and all I got was a bunch more casualties".
[/quote]

i know that feeling. i am hoping to break 4.5 million total casualties before this war is done.