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Will your opinion of Pacifica or Polaris change after this war?


Kalasin

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The title is rather self-explanatory.

Personally I used to really like NpO. Sponge, Random, FF, Cookavich etc were genuinely cool. The problem, for me, was Grub. He used Karma as an opportunity to make some moralist posturing without doing any of the hard fighting, threatened a direct MADP partner of MK (while holding an MDoAP with MK, which really put MK in a bad position) and started throwing his weight around. My opinion of NpO slowly declined. Then in BiPolar he made a series of absolutely monumental errors which finally killed my opinion of the alliance. I mean, I'm not even a fan of TOP. Crymson, for example, is pretty !@#$@#$ horrible. But NpO shouldn't have broken their word to them. That's not really the problem though, if they'd simply screwed TOP over I wouldn't have really cared (although giving their word to let TOP hit MK was a dick move in the first place, considering NpO held a treaty with MK.) The problem was, well, pretty much every single action they took in BiPolar. Attacking \m/ in the first place was really stupid. I saw logs from Grub's discussions with his allies and it pretty much boiled down to 'if I don't go to war people won't take me seriously'. Well, going to war over an ego trip is an absolutely stupid idea. Especially as it put Ragnarok in a terrible position (RoK held treaties with both NpO and \m/.) And then honestly, proceeding to attack GOD, who had been preparing for years to fight Polar, was pretty !@#$@#$ stupid, particularly (as has been pointed out) it was Fark who was doing the real damage to NSO.

But while I could keep listing everything that Polar did which was stupid, I don't really need to. I've established that by the time that BiPolar ended, my good opinion of Polar was dead. When Penguin came to the throne, I eased up a bit, because he's a genuinely calm and rational and cool dude, but I was still left with the sense that NpO deserved to be rolled. Well, that has happened now, and my grudge with Polar has died with it. I mean, I'm not going to just start liking them, but they have an opportunity here for reform. Much as I like Random, for example, he's completely the wrong guy for emperor. Acknowledging that they went wrong in BiPolar would be another step forward (not that they ever would, they're a bit too proud for that.) Stop Grub from spouting off on the forums, and perhaps shut up some of their worst posters (I'm thinking D34th here.) At the very least, they can become respectable opponents.

Onto Pacifica. I really hated these !@#$%^&*, and the whole 'we've switched emperor!' deal didn't really work with me, because I was wronged by Cortath personally. I'm rather disappointed I didn't get to nuke the $%&@ out of them in this war, but I'm sure there'll be other wars (I was going to join MK and help with the NPO front, but I decided to rebuild instead.) Personally, even though I can't stand NPO, I'll let up some of the hate after this war. It won't change my opinion of them or their culture, but I'll have had revenge, even if I didn't deal it out personally. If NPO will humble themselves and make apologies to FAN and GATO for what they did, then that would really help too. I'll always be distrustful of them, and I'll never like them, but I'll move on. Two years is a long time to hold a grudge after all.

I have also changed my opinion of what reps the Orders should receive. While I originally just wanted NPO to die, I think that a) it's kind of dickish to demand reps (or at least, massive reps, I'm sure I would live with myself if they paid some smaller amount) for an aggressive war and b) it would be best for the political situation if they got white peace, or something close to it. The Orders make good opponents after all.

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[quote name='Chickenzilla' timestamp='1297209956' post='2626173']
I think the NPO should just get every bit of reps they've ever given someone else before. So a few viceroys, two years of perma war, force people out of pace mode, delete wonders and improvements, some tech and money, oh and to cancel all treaties. Maybe a disbandment if I'm feeling salty.
[/quote]

Oh don't mind Karma + 10 months of reps with no treaties, and then this war which is being aggressively fought against them. Those don't mean [b]anything[/b] right?

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[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1297210230' post='2626192']
I didn't think that they had paid their dues, no.
[/quote]
Just seems when 2/3 of your statement was dedicated to Polar. Skipping over the karma war, more money and tech demanded than all reps ever taken by all alliances combined seems a bit odd. When you look at these things you have to balance your personal hatred to that of enslaving a community as a whole for hundreds of days. If you can articulate a rational justification for such measures that would be interesting to read.

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I didn't like NpPO before, I don't like them now, and I don't plan on changing that in the future. My preference in dealing with the Orders has always been to keep them at arms length. I will never advocate for commencing diplomatic relations with them but I also won't be the one to lead a lynch mob after them like MK has done twice. As long as I stay away from them and they stay away from me, I'm happy.

Edit: I'll also be one of the first to publish the acronym NpPSO because to me, there's no real difference between Pacifica, Polaris, and Sith.

Edited by Duncan King
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My opinions of them won't change at all quite frankly but then again I am indifferent to them as they are now. Regarding the New Pacific Order I find it ironic that many of the alliances that decried all of the "atrocities" that the orders and their allies committed are now committing almost all of those same "atrocities" now. We've got VE & company using the same excuse to go to war that NPO used to use (questionable spying accusations) and Doomhouse jumping NPO for no other reason than they are apparently still scared of the Pacifican boogeyman and think that NPO is going to roll everybody and reclaim absolute power or whatever justification it is that they are using.

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[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1297210520' post='2626201']
Just seems when 2/3 of your statement was dedicated to Polar. Skipping over the karma war, more money and tech demanded than all reps ever taken by all alliances combined seems a bit odd. When you look at these things you have to balance your personal hatred to that of enslaving a community as a whole for hundreds of days. If you can articulate a rational justification for such measures that would be interesting to read.
[/quote]

True enough. I wondered whether to write more on NPO's crimes but decided that it was unnecessary because there's a general consensus that NPO were dicks.

The thing is, I actually joined NPO. You have to remember this. It was largely because I sympathised with the underdog and wanted to fight the power (lawl) by joining the alliance in the bad position. There were actually loads of guys in Vox who had a similar mindset (Aros, for example, tried to reroll and join NPO, but because he was open about his former identity they didn't accept him.) Because I had been in MCXA in 2007 and 2008, I hadn't experienced firsthand exactly how unpleasant the IOs were. Thus I joined Vox for ideological reasons (yeah, yeah, it was two years ago, I'm not a moralist these days) and also because I enjoyed fighting the most dominant alliance in the Cyberverse (again with the underdog thing) and saw NPO put under these crushing terms. It's pretty easy for NPO to fool people who joined post-Karma into buying into their pseudo-moralist nonsense, and tbqh I can understand the way they think, but once you have dealt with NPO's leadership and seen their true face it puts all their past crimes into perspective. They deserved every day they spent under those terms and more.

Now, though, I wouldn't want to see them under another year of terms.

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[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1297209540' post='2626165']
The title is rather self-explanatory.

Personally I used to really like NpO. Sponge, Random, FF, Cookavich etc were genuinely cool. The problem, for me, was Grub. He used Karma as an opportunity to make some moralist posturing without doing any of the hard fighting, threatened a direct MADP partner of MK (while holding an MDoAP with MK, which really put MK in a bad position) and started throwing his weight around. My opinion of NpO slowly declined. Then in BiPolar he made a series of absolutely monumental errors which finally killed my opinion of the alliance. I mean, I'm not even a fan of TOP. Crymson, for example, is pretty !@#$@#$ horrible. But NpO shouldn't have broken their word to them. That's not really the problem though, if they'd simply screwed TOP over I wouldn't have really cared (although giving their word to let TOP hit MK was a dick move in the first place, considering NpO held a treaty with MK.) The problem was, well, pretty much every single action they took in BiPolar. Attacking \m/ in the first place was really stupid. I saw logs from Grub's discussions with his allies and it pretty much boiled down to 'if I don't go to war people won't take me seriously'. Well, going to war over an ego trip is an absolutely stupid idea. Especially as it put Ragnarok in a terrible position (RoK held treaties with both NpO and \m/.) And then honestly, proceeding to attack GOD, who had been preparing for years to fight Polar, was pretty !@#$@#$ stupid, particularly (as has been pointed out) it was Fark who was doing the real damage to NSO.

But while I could keep listing everything that Polar did which was stupid, I don't really need to. I've established that by the time that BiPolar ended, my good opinion of Polar was dead. When Penguin came to the throne, I eased up a bit, because he's a genuinely calm and rational and cool dude, but I was still left with the sense that NpO deserved to be rolled. Well, that has happened now, and my grudge with Polar has died with it. I mean, I'm not going to just start liking them, but they have an opportunity here for reform. Much as I like Random, for example, he's completely the wrong guy for emperor. Acknowledging that they went wrong in BiPolar would be another step forward (not that they ever would, they're a bit too proud for that.) Stop Grub from spouting off on the forums, and perhaps shut up some of their worst posters (I'm thinking D34th here.) At the very least, they can become respectable opponents. [/quote]

Ignoring the pieces of the mechanics of Bipolar which have been debated to death (about whether we betrayed TOP or not), I will say this. AlmightyGrub and Penguin both apologized for what happened during Bipolar.

Why exactly is Random the wrong guy for Emperor? He has done more for Polaris than almost anyone, and is one of the smartest people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. Yeah, he trolled quite a bit in the past, leading up to noCB especially, but he has barely touched the forums in two years. I really don't know why he would be the wrong guy.

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Many of us hold on to that old adage that has prevailed which is, the Orders are not to be trusted.

Does that mean I want to see them put under capitulating terms via paranoid CB's? Of course not. They add something we can't replace. I wouldn't even like to see MK or GOONS disbanded or attacked out of the blue and then put under debilitating terms, not only isn't it right, but it really ruins things in the future. Friction is what makes things so interesting, getting rid of it would just make it static [ooc](not static as in static friction though)[/ooc].

[quote]Now, though, I wouldn't want to see them under another year of terms. [/quote]

It's not going to be another year of terms.. it's going to be much worse.

Edited by The MVP
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[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1297211129' post='2626215']
Ignoring the pieces of the mechanics of Bipolar which have been debated to death (about whether we betrayed TOP or not), I will say this. AlmightyGrub and Penguin both apologized for what happened during Bipolar.
[/quote]

I'm not really trying to start a debate on whether what Polar did was wrong, but rather state the reasons that I have for disliking Polar.

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1297211129' post='2626215']
Why exactly is Random the wrong guy for Emperor? He has done more for Polaris than almost anyone, and is one of the smartest people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. Yeah, he trolled quite a bit in the past, leading up to noCB especially, but he has barely touched the forums in two years. I really don't know why he would be the wrong guy.
[/quote]

I personally don't care what he posted prior to No-CB, but the problem with Random is that he has a *lot* of grudges, and I don't think he'll see past them. He needs to get over things and do what is best for Polaris without letting his emotions get in the way. Oh and before you start, yes I would probably make a terrible Emperor of NpO right now. I have a lot of grudges too.

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[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1297211348' post='2626220']
I personally don't care what he posted prior to No-CB, but the problem with Random is that he has a *lot* of grudges, and I don't think he'll see past them. He needs to get over things and do what is best for Polaris without letting his emotions get in the way. Oh and before you start, yes I would probably make a terrible Emperor of NpO right now. I have a lot of grudges too.
[/quote]

Most people would make terrible Emperors anyway.

Random does have some grudges, but I can tell you that he is certainly working through/past them. I have seen it happen already and I expect to see it again.

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[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1297211148' post='2626217']
It's not going to be another year of terms.. it's going to be much worse.
[/quote]

tbqh I doubt that, but we'll see what happens soon enough I suppose.

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1297211474' post='2626223']
Most people would make terrible Emperors anyway.

Random does have some grudges, but I can tell you that he is certainly working through/past them. I have seen it happen already and I expect to see it again.
[/quote]

I'll take your word for it, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.

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I am not a fan of NPpO. Haven't been since noCB for NPO, and biPolar for NpO. I will remain not a fan for a while.

That being said, I think this will at least allow me to see them as "even," and I don't care for anymore carnage of their alliances so long as they don't mess up again. I will never hold a treaty with them, and I don't suspect to ever be an ally of an ally of theirs (albeit that may change due to the circumstances). I don't think they're horrible monsters, just don't care for them.

I would also like to disagree with DK because I've only agreed with him so far. NSO is different. I actually like NSO for the most part. Seems like a different aura to me...

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Being rolled doesn't mean anything. If I am to think differently of them, then I'm going to want to see active effort on their part(s) to change people's opinions [of them]. Polaris is absolutely awful, but I don't care about Pacifica either way because I wasn't around very long to be abused by them. Then again, it would probably be for the best if they were just disbanded. Yeah, let's go with that.

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Really it depends how each one behaves during and after the war. I have to say though, my trust for Polar is completely shot after Bipolar, so the best they can do is to get up to neutral status. They have some genuinely cool people (Penguin, I'm looking at you) but institutionally they've proved that they're dangerous, unstable and not to be trusted, and they've proved it twice over. (First under Sponge then Grub.)

But back to the first point. After the BLEU war, Polar came over to our boards (and also TOP's I believe) and we had a good discussion about where things had gone wrong, where we had misread things as more hostile than they were and so on. After that, my impression of Polar was greatly increased, and I somewhat regretted rolling them. The same thing happened with TOP, leading to TOP joining the Polar coalition in Bipolar ... we all know what happened next in that front.

On the other hand, after Karma, NPO went into its shell, complained about how unfair it all was (to be fair they did get record reparations, but they did rather deserve it) – and when they finally did try to initiate diplomacy (by this point I was in VE) it all got rather uncivilised rather quickly. There was no real feeling that they believed they'd done anything wrong, and they couldn't really offer a 'moving on' option apart from burying the past – which doesn't really pass muster when history is so important. And once it got all insulting on their boards my opinion of them went down even further. From the fact that people hate them enough to jump them opportunistically when they haven't done anything, it appears that other alliances had a similar experience.

So it all comes down to whether they can realise their faults and do something about them.

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