R&R got bored.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1297222571' post='2626533']
Picking and choosing based on the situation is the whole point of ODP's, is it not?
[/quote]
Exactly what I was getting at.

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297221377' post='2626498']
You are right, GOD never said they didnt like levying huge and unwarrented reps on people.

[/quote]

Actually what we've always said is the victor makes the rules. We don't believe in crushing reps if they're unwarranted but we would consider levying them in certain cases, most likely against the 4 or 5 alliances we still have grudges with. We're the last people folks expect to give white peace, and we've done it more often then any give us credit for.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

Probably the worst CB of the war so far. Stay classy RnR and Co.

Edited February 9, 2011 by SoADarthCyfe6

[General Ozujsko]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297185651' post='2625816']
Yes it's a treaty, but it's an ODP part of NOIR. That isn't the strongest of treaties.
[/quote]

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. It doesn't matter how you regard an ODP, it's still a commitment. NOIR prevented us from attacking Sparta or Darkfall...but it still allows us to come to LOSS' aid. Whether CSN considers an ODP valid is of no consequence. In fact, I'd expect them to come up with something better than that. Simple minds, really.

[quote]
DT wanted in on the other side and picked a controlled part of the conflict in which they could [b]maximize output damage and minimize input damage[/b].
[/quote]

That's called war. But I'll elaborate on our target in just a minute.

[quote]
Some people would call that bandwagoning (not me though).
[/quote]

Oh, well, that's nice. See, since "peace talks" were not reaching a conclusion (as stated by Goose and the logs), this was not a hit&run. We honored an request, albeit a bit late.

Being a 150 member alliance and calling in all of CN because you have awful tech:infra ratios and WCs may be considered bandwagoning...or a dogpile.

[quote]
It barely reduced any pressure from LoSS and [i]thus you can conclude that DT didn't do this to help LoSS out. [/i]
[/quote]

That's a bit of a stretch.

We picked a target that would have benefited both LOSS...and, to a lesser extent, Nordreich vis a vis WF. We were summarily declared on by CSN...remember DT is only 50 members and it doesn't take much for us to be outnumbered. Legacy has agreed to white peace...CSN is still holding out with some ridiculous terms that amount to prolonged economic warfare. 40ktech from our 2ktech+ nations isn't a peace term...it's theft.

[quote]
What their actual motives were to do this? I'm not sure. I could be to preserve infra and not come off like a hippy (sitting on the sideline would give them a lot of negative PR).
[/quote]

See above.

[quote]
That's just speculation though.
[/quote]

We know.

===

[quote name='Xerxes II' timestamp='1297217431' post='2626407']
*insert violin solo here*

I think the 40k is more for the fact you declared while LoSS was in peace talks with us. You remember that, right?

Btw, those are only terms on DT, not LoSS.
[/quote]

Goose has already stated that peace talks were over/suspended at that point. I've seen the logs - if that's what you consider peace talks, then you shouldn't be posting on these forums.

You may wish to consult your alliance leadership for a list of talking points. I know that CSN govt has been serving up big dishes of copypasta lately.

Anyway, thanks for playing. Feel free to join us when you're capable of discussing these issues.

[James IV]

This is not surprising. DT and CSN have hated each other since [OOC]pre-CN[OOC]. Still a bs move IMO. Good luck to both DT and LoSS.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297221377' post='2626498']
You are right, GOD never said they didnt like levying huge and unwarrented reps on people.

Good to see you at least are staying consistent in a crazy crazy world
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Actually, GOD never did. GOD has never had any principles.

As for white peace in Karma and this war, seems its for strategy and nothing more. I realized that midway through Karma. I thoughts terms would be dispensed so that justice would be served. Clearly that wasn't the case, when we saw alliances like Valhalla (no offense meant) get off rather lightly while smaller peripheral alliances had to pay reps (regardless of how small, still entirely unwarranted). It was clear they were hypocrites then and there, and anyone who fought for them was suckered into it by pretty words and empty promises.

Anyway, CSN, I always knew you were a terrible alliance. Thank you once again for show us why. Cowards, opportunists, and war profiteers. There ain't an ounce of you deserving any respect.[/color]

[MaGneT]

[quote name='James IV' timestamp='1297233880' post='2626746']
This is not surprising. DT and CSN have hated each other since [OOC]pre-CN[OOC]. Still a bs move IMO. Good luck to both DT and LoSS.
[/quote]

[OOC] I wouldn't say we hated Soviet_ . . . I'd just say that we considered them to be a bit of a joke and they were fun to pick on because of their incompetence [/OOC]

I wonder if incompetence bridges the gap between worlds.

EDIT:

RV, I don't think anyone is surprised. . . they were in GUARD for Admin's sake . . .

Edited February 9, 2011 by MaGneT

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]Okay, let's remember something here. Karma wanted 100k tech from NPO (they had at least 500k left when the war ended, at least - most minimal estimate), which took eight months to pay even with more than 500 members.

What CSN is asking for is DT, an alliance with 47 members to pay 40k tech (out of 140k) in three months. Ignoring the fact this is a higher percentage than NPO had to pay, the logistics is simply impossible. All alliances have dead weight. Even DT. Not all of their members will help pay, but let's aim high and say they get 40 on board. That's 1000 tech each that they will have to pay over the course of three months. Anyone who does tech deals will know that's not possible, but for you naysayers....Let's give each member five slots (not all of them will have five slots). I've lost myself. Starting again.

Okay, they have forty members. They can send 10,000 tech out every ten days. Bah. Seems it is possible given a miracle of coordination and logistics, but that is counting on the most inactive members pulling through. Honestly I'd say CSN is hoping they can get a good chunk of tech from DT, knowing they'll fail to pay, so they then get an excuse to hit them again. It's a classic play by those with power.

Anyway, is there any real justification for such harsh reps, or is CSN just gluttonous for tech and having trouble finding sellers? If that is the case, you're still scum.[/color]

[AuiNur]

It does not matter how ever much CSN wants in tech reparations. I'm not paying. Oh, and until CSN surrenders to me, I'm staying in peace mode too.

Edited February 9, 2011 by AuiNur

[Hunterman1043]

EDIT: Nevermind.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Hunterman1043

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='General Ozujsko' timestamp='1297231969' post='2626711']
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. It doesn't matter how you regard an ODP, it's still a commitment. NOIR prevented us from attacking Sparta or Darkfall...but it still allows us to come to LOSS' aid. Whether CSN considers an ODP valid is of no consequence. In fact, I'd expect them to come up with something better than that. Simple minds, really.
[/quote]

It's optional and therefore no commitment, and if it was, you would be attacking the alliance that were piling on Sparta instead of attacking Legacy. Your ODP is with the black team, not with LoSS specifically. Also, I find it very weird that LoSS is now changing what has been agreed on when we let TIO and GATO go. First it's just Synergy and now it's DT too, what's next you want white peace for your whole front? Our agreement is not some kind of carte blanch thing you know.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297244945' post='2626840']
It's optional and therefore no commitment, and if it was, you would be attacking the alliance that were piling on Sparta instead of attacking Legacy. Your ODP is with the black team, not with LoSS specifically. Also, I find it very weird that LoSS is now changing what has been agreed on when we let TIO and GATO go. First it's just Synergy and now it's DT too, what's next you want white peace for your whole front? Our agreement is not some kind of carte blanch thing you know.
[/quote]


I do believe you can pick which Noir alliance you want to pick and defend ( The treaty has no clause against that ) and they did that. As to Sparta: Read below

Sparta attacked one of DT's closest ally. Seriously arexes your bringing that out as an argument even? Sparta lost any respect or commitment the moment they &#$@ blocked DT from defending NV.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Sir Keshav IV

[NoFish]

[quote name='AuiNur' timestamp='1297238383' post='2626810']
It does not matter how ever much CSN wants in tech reparations. I'm not paying. Oh, and until CSN surrenders to me, I'm staying in peace mode too.
[/quote]
You'll stay in peace mode until CSN surrenders? I'm sure they're shaking in their boots.

Edited February 9, 2011 by NoFish

[Hunterman1043]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297244945' post='2626840']
Your ODP is with the black team, not with LoSS specifically.
[/quote]

I'm just gonna add in that the NOIR treaty gives ODP protection to all signatories of the treaty. NOIR does not hold the entire band of black team alliances, even though it may look like it does. If DT wanted to protect us, then DT wanted to protect us.... The treaty allows that. We didn't hold a gun to their head and make them fight for us.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1297245134' post='2626844']
I do believe you can pick which Noir alliance you want to pick and defend ( The treaty has no clause against that ) and they did that. As to Sparta: Read below

Sparta attacked one of DT's closest ally. Seriously arexes your bringing that out as an argument even? Sparta lost any respect or commitment the moment they &#$@ blocked DT from defending NV in the name of strategy and you really say DT should have defended Sparta?
[/quote]

No I'm not, but I'm just stating that they are saying one thing and doing another. If they value the ODP of NOIR they should have done so and helped Sparta, no matter who or what Sparta attacked. Like I said, an ODP is not a commitment to intervene, far from it. It's optional for a reason.


[quote name='Hunterman1043' timestamp='1297245250' post='2626846']
I'm just gonna add in that the NOIR treaty gives ODP protection to all signatories of the treaty. NOIR does not hold the entire band of black team alliances, even though it may look like it does. If DT wanted to protect us, then DT wanted to protect us.... The treaty allows that. We didn't hold a gun to their head and make them fight for us.
[/quote]

Ye it's what I meant, thanks for the addition though

[Hunterman1043]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297245486' post='2626850']
No I'm not, but I'm just stating that they are saying one thing and doing another. If they value the ODP of NOIR they should have done so and helped Sparta, no matter who or what Sparta attacked. Like I said, an ODP is not a commitment to intervene, far from it. It's optional for a reason.
[/quote]

Why would they defend an alliance that is beating up their MDoAP ally? That makes no sense. I don't think you get what happened between DT and LoSS.... We gave them the option to help us out against all the odds that we have faced, and they agreed... What's so wrong about that?

Edited February 9, 2011 by Hunterman1043

[Lusitan]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297245486' post='2626850']
No I'm not, but I'm just stating that they are saying one thing and doing another. If they value the ODP of NOIR they should have done so and helped Sparta, no matter who or what Sparta attacked. Like I said, an ODP is not a commitment to intervene, far from it. It's optional for a reason.
[/quote]

The concept behind the ODP is that you can choose when you want to the defend someone for whatever reasons. DT did not like nor agree with Sparta's cause and therefore was not required to defend them. An alliance does not commit itself to the ODP, commits to the alliance they signed the ODP with. Your argument is senseless.

[Hunterman1043]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1297246018' post='2626856']
The concept behind the ODP is that you can choose when you want to the defend someone for whatever reasons. DT did not like nor agree with Sparta's cause and therefore was not required to defend them.
[/quote]

Also the fact that Sparta's war was not a defensive one to begin with.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Hunterman1043

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1297246018' post='2626856']
The concept behind the ODP is that you can choose when you want to the defend someone for whatever reasons. DT did not like nor agree with Sparta's cause and therefore was not required to defend them. An alliance does not commit itself to the ODP, commits to the alliance they signed the ODP with. Your argument is senseless.
[/quote]

No it isn't senseless. DT stated they went in because they were committed too. I'm stating they weren't committed at all (like you are I guess). If the ODP did commit them into helping LoSS (which in my opinion didn't, I'm just going with DT's reasoning) it would also have them committed to helping Sparta.

[Seipher Caim]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297248715' post='2626868']
No it isn't senseless. DT stated they went in because they were committed too. I'm stating they weren't committed at all (like you are I guess). If the ODP did commit them into helping LoSS (which in my opinion didn't, I'm just going with DT's reasoning) [b]it would also have them committed to helping Sparta[/b].
[/quote]

Committed to help sparta pounding their MDoAP partners out of the blue ?
This is really a twisted sense of priorities in chosing a front

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Seipher Caim' timestamp='1297249436' post='2626873']
Committed to help sparta pounding their MDoAP partners out of the blue ?
This is really a twisted sense of priorities in chosing a front
[/quote]

Euh yeah... no. Sparta got attacked by other alliances. I mean a whole lot of alliances. If they really think an ODP would commit them to helping out they could've attacked any of those 6-7 alliances. No DT didn't do this. They waited a few more days and then decided to wait another week and then come to the aid of LoSS. And then declared on Legacy which were the least of the problems for LoSS I can imagine.

Thing is, they should not say that an ODP committed to help LoSS. They just wanted in against our side and they did. It can be so simple sometimes. CSN thought this was a not so nice thing to do and they are now asking reps. And here we are.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297248715' post='2626868']
No it isn't senseless. DT stated they went in because they were committed too. I'm stating they weren't committed at all (like you are I guess). If the ODP did commit them into helping LoSS (which in my opinion didn't, I'm just going with DT's reasoning) it would also have them committed to helping Sparta.
[/quote]

They were commited to help LoSS, not NOIR. Because once again, people don't commit to treaties, they commit to alliances.

[Amossio]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297248715' post='2626868']
No it isn't senseless. DT stated they went in because they were committed too. I'm stating they weren't committed at all (like you are I guess). If the ODP did commit them into helping LoSS (which in my opinion didn't, I'm just going with DT's reasoning) it would also have them committed to helping Sparta.
[/quote]

pffffttt hahhaha, you such a n00b kriek
I know you might have trouble understanding treaties kriekfriek, some alliances in NOIR however are pretty close or very friendly with one another. Hence DT being friends with us and unlike CSN actually used a treaty to come to our aid as all our allies were already fighting, If Sparta hadn't been fighting DT's MDoAP partners and had it been someone else, well it would have been a different story and if Sparta then asked for DT, who does honour it's commitments, would have come to their aid.

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297141194' post='2625254']
Also, 1 war, R&R? Terrible blitz. I love you and all... but come on guys.
[/quote]

Thanks for the concern Penkala, but it's not necessary. There wasn't a blitz planned, we just announced a state of war so we could add some targets to our target list. After MK/umbrella not doing that and the !@#$%*ing it received it seemed like the good thing to do, oh how wrong i was

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1297144928' post='2625365']
Thats some !@#$%* PR responce dude, i had more respect for you than this
[/quote]

If you want a proper answer then ask a proper question. We declared war on LoSS on request to take a couple targets, hell we could have ghosted CSN to do it but that's not something we like and something that happens more and more often it seems.

Now you ask if that also means if we support the reparations CSN is asking, CSN so far has asked 0 reparations from loss, so how can i give you another answer than "If CSN decides to ask for reps we will form an opinion on if we support those, we ourselves however will not take anything from LoSS".

But since you seem displeased with my answer i take it you meant the DT reps. I can be very clear about that. R&R is NOT fighting DT, as such we consider any terms or negotiations between CSN and DT as none of our business, just like we consider it none of CSN's business if we decide to take reps from let's say UPN.

So in short, if your question was: "What does R&R think of CSN's terms offered to DT" the simple answer is: "Don't know, don't care".


[quote name='Frederico Rodriguez' timestamp='1297167470' post='2625591']
They represent the Alliances opinion well, this is a crap CB attacking one of our allies.
[/quote]
[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1297231546' post='2626707']
Probably the worst CB of the war so far. Stay classy RnR and Co.
[/quote]

ITT: an oDP is a great reason to enter a war but you can only use a MDoAP if you also have a solid CB to go with it.


[quote name='Cynic' timestamp='1297208310' post='2626144']
*Snip*

Tl;Dr Welcome to this front of the war R&R let's have fun and enjoy a good fight.
[/quote]

You should meet juslen, the 2 of you would get along XD

Thanks, same to you and good luck

Edited February 9, 2011 by EgoFreaky

[CptGodzilla]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1297234400' post='2626760']
[color="#0000ff"]Actually, GOD never did. GOD has never had any principles.
[/color]
[/quote]

I know you love us so much, but this is about RnR / LoSS

Edited February 9, 2011 by CptGodzilla