KoH Recognition of Hostility with VE

[Penkala]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1296267212' post='2608314']
lol, "big bother". A most appropriate typo. Best of luck guys, VE likes targeting the little alliances.
[/quote]

Yeah man Polaris is tiny.

Regardless, while the rest of my alliance appears to be preoccupied with removing Polaris from its sanctioned status, I think I can spare a few war slots for your alliance (seeing as half of you are in my range).

See ya soon!

Edit: Hope you have a good banking system

Edited January 29, 2011 by Penkala

[Frodark]

[quote name='The Catalyst' timestamp='1296301397' post='2609395']
if you take it out of context what your saying is fine...
exept what there saying is that Misfits agreed not to call you in..which would mean they lied= bad
[/quote]

Please learn to read an entire thread.
There was no agreement between our two alliances, just a leader of their alliance talking to a lower member of our gov that was mistaken and talking above his pay grade. We have already been over this. We informed them of their mistake days ago, and informed them that should they persist in this war VE would join. Believe it or not, we like fighting beside VE and they us. Its why we signed the treaty in the first place.

Yes Impero asked them to let him know their decision that night. He was busy with a larger war and couldnt spend hours going back and forth. At no time did we state that was the last time they could ask for that agreement. They could have come back to us and said they didnt want to face VE and ask to be peaced out. They made their choice to fight on, and we respect them for it.

You can clearly see we are defeated. We have an enemy with half the WCs we do, who has their members sending requests for peace to our members every day, who has had one of their top nations surrender, and who cant take two more nations attacking them. Man if only we could see the writing on the wall.......riiiiight

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1296285021' post='2609128']
I'm sorry to see this turned into such an emotional experience for you, KoH. Despite what you may think, I sincerely wish you good luck in the remainder of this war as well as rebuilding both your nations and any harm done to your feelings.
[/quote]
Your empty words and false empathy aren't needed here. Your 'sincerities' don't make you look any better than the lying, two-faced piece of !@#$ you are.

And MoB -- you left Pacifica all those years ago to escape this kind of behaviour - now your firmly attaching to Viridia like this?? The bastion of hypocrisy in this world. I'd put more trust in the word Moo of 4 years ago than I would in the Impero of today.


[quote name='MrMuz' timestamp='1296281540' post='2608998']
Well, hey, if you don't want to get declared on, don't attack a protectorate. It doesn't count as an agreement unless it's officially signed.

Why not bring your own bigger brother down on Misfits too, to make it fair? Oh wait, Misfits have been at war with Polaris since the first day without a complaint. They're real warriors. KoH can't seem to take two war slots from VE without crying.
[/quote]
[img]http://skyrope.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/fish-eat-fish.jpg[/img]
That's all this war has been for their side. One big farce to try and entrap whomever they please using their subservient satellites as bait. The more they do this stupid !@#$ of theirs, the more they [i]think[/i] they're goading us.


[quote name='AtheistRepublican' timestamp='1296291672' post='2609273']
I would say it is well within VE's rights to assist MN, even if MN does not need it. However, I do think that not posting a DoW is extremely underhanded. This is not the first instance I have heard of this - FOK attacking DRAGON to help PC, or Umbrella attacking Legion & TPF - and for all I know my "side" of this war could be doing the same thing. But I still think it's rather low to send assistance without actually DoWing to avoid the treaty implications.

Granted, in this case, there are not any real treaty implications. But whoever thinks about all the poor souls making war webs and wiki updates, hmm?
[/quote]
I've come to stop expecting any level of decency from them.

All they're promoting is anarchy. "$%&@ treaties." "$%&@ peace." "$%&@ sitting around and waiting for someone to sneak up in the night and slit my throat." They don't believe any one should require any reason for any sort of militia action. And they don't believe in anything but self-preservation.


Edit to avoid double post:
[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1296315175' post='2609510']
Yeah man Polaris is tiny.

Regardless, while the rest of my alliance appears to be preoccupied with removing Polaris from its sanctioned status, [b]I think I can spare a few war slots[/b] for your alliance (seeing as half of you are in my range).

See ya soon!

Edit: Hope you have a good banking system
[/quote]
You have no defensive or offensive wars, I'd hope you could "spare" a few.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Rayvon

[The Catalyst]

[quote name='Frodark' timestamp='1296315599' post='2609515']
Please learn to read an entire thread.
There was no agreement between our two alliances, just a leader of their alliance talking to a lower member of our gov that was mistaken and talking above his pay grade. We have already been over this. We informed them of their mistake days ago, and informed them that should they persist in this war VE would join. Believe it or not, we like fighting beside VE and they us. Its why we signed the treaty in the first place.

Yes Impero asked them to let him know their decision that night. He was busy with a larger war and couldnt spend hours going back and forth. At no time did we state that was the last time they could ask for that agreement. They could have come back to us and said they didnt want to face VE and ask to be peaced out. They made their choice to fight on, and we respect them for it.

You can clearly see we are defeated. We have an enemy with half the WCs we do, who has their members sending requests for peace to our members every day, who has had one of their top nations surrender, and who cant take two more nations attacking them. Man if only we could see the writing on the wall.......riiiiight
[/quote]
sorry if i dont have the time to read every single page of every single thread.
if one of your top guys made an agreement that he couldnt make you should get a better gov?

[Frodark]

[quote name='The Catalyst' timestamp='1296320262' post='2609575']
sorry if i dont have the time to read every single page of every single thread.
if one of your top guys made an agreement that he couldnt make you should get a better gov?
[/quote]

Reading comprehension is an issue I see. Lower gov != top guys.
Also I can assure you he has been addressed.

[caleb ryals]

[quote name='Callebaut' timestamp='1296274775' post='2608525']
Honestly, the spin and fail in this thread is astounding.

Hyrule and Misfits were in peace talks already due to Hyrule's lack of preparation (7 mil warchests on nuclear nations). They asked that we both step out of the war, Misfits said that we were willing to agree to a white peace, but would continue to fight Polar once our slots were free. They declined. Impero, who we had informed of the entire situation, and was well aware of what was going on, then joined the peace talks. Hyrule was given two days notice that VE would put Hyrulean nations in their target lists for the next rotation if peace was not agreed upon. Hyrule declined, and here we are today.

And the claim that Hyrule thought there would be no retaliation from our side is also false. Erik, their Minister of Foreign Affairs, was well aware within a day of war that we were talking with our allies. Sho mispoke and was misinterpreted in that he was assuaging Hyrule's great fear that IRON would activate our recent treaty, when it is not even written in spirit to be military.
[/quote]

The reason we didn't immediately send peace terms wasn't due to our lack of preparation, we sent them because we had previously decided to stay out of the war and we didn't want a drug out conflict ready for one or not. your declaration on NpO gave us the opportunity to be benficial to our protectorate is some way. though small, it was better than doing nothing.

secondly, our reason for declining your counter offer was because it refuted our entire reason for declaring on you guys in the first place, to end your fight against NpO.

[quote]Think some of you who have been immediately jumping on the "VE Sucks!" bandwagon before taking the time to know what you're arguing about are going to look back on this time and be embarrassed about how you've behaved. Take a breath, think about what you're saying, and then put forth an argument that makes sense.

Now it's already been explained several times that this gentlemen's agreement between KoH and Misfit Nations involved a low ranking government member who did not have the authority to make such an agreement. It's also been explained KoH knew what would happen if they did not accept the white peace terms offered. They did not accept the terms. Fine. Now there are two offensive wars by VE against KoH. That's right, two.

Just man up and have some fun. This is not the end of the world for anyone and from what I'm hearing, KoH is learning some valuable lessons in war fighting, war chest importance, and diplomacy. KoH will be a better alliance for having participated in this war, but the biggest lesson they may learn is that being whiny and complaining during wartime is poor form. [/quote]


whiny about getting declared on? oh, no. we do not have a problem fighting you guys. sure, we knew we would lose a good bit of pixels, but pixels are pixles, how many billions of them are there on the internet??? let's not go there, math! why do you think we rejected your counter-offer? we're not stupid enough to believe it to be an idle threat. we saw it coming. no, our problem is not that you are protecting MN by attacking us, which yes, I find very honourable. our problem is you posted your declaration in a blog, not on the OWF, with no actual gov signatures in it at all (and what was that said about its not official without signatures?), showing blatant disregard for KoH's sovereignty as an alliance. perhaps to spare yourselves humiliation for attacking a mini (which happened anyway), or simply because you didn't really think of it as a big deal. either way, we at KoH felt dishonoured by your lack of respect in the way you decided to declare on us, not the declaration itself. and we don't know anything about proper diplomacy?

[quote]You can clearly see we are defeated. We have an enemy with half the WCs we do, who has their members sending requests for peace to our members every day, who has had one of their top nations surrender, and who cant take two more nations attacking them. Man if only we could see the writing on the wall.......riiiiight [/quote]

you left out the part where your alliance only had half the nuke capable nations that we had at the start of the war, which did have a large impact on the turnout of the past week of fighting

Edited January 29, 2011 by caleb ryals

[The Catalyst]

[quote name='Frodark' timestamp='1296320548' post='2609581']
Reading comprehension is an issue I see. Lower gov != top guys.
Also I can assure you he has been addressed.
[/quote]
well there we go then
there are seven pages to this thread. im not gonna read them all. that is why i did not know it was just one guy.

[Bill Wallace]

We're honorable, you're dishonorable, blog DoW's, complaining, crying, etc. Good god this is exhausting.

[Goldie]

[quote name='caleb ryals' timestamp='1296320761' post='2609584']
and lastly, our problem is not that VE protected you guys by attacking us, which yes, was honourable, our problem is that VE posted their declaration in a blog, not on the OWF, with no actual gov signatures in it at all, showing blatant disregard for KoH's sovereignty as an alliance. perhaps to spare themselves humiliation for attacking a mini (which happened anyway), or simply because they didn't really think of it as a big deal. either way, we at KoH felt dishonoured by VE's lack of respect for it.
[/quote]

We here at VE believe an uncluttered OWF is a better OWF. Some alliances post 'milestones', others post 'treaty cancellations', even more post 'gov changes'. We have made 2 threads in god knows how many months, and of those two threads three wars were declared, meanwhile there are micro alliances who post threads in the AA forums weekly, making important announcements like wars, and treaties, get pushed off the front page.

I'm sorry you feel that way about our declaration. How we post and what we post has nothing to do with how we view you as an alliance. Would you have rather I made a post on the last page of our STA/IAA DoW saying we recognized a war? Should I have asked an IRCop to make a global notice? You've already made as many threads this war as we have, why should we clutter things up even more by making another one? I thought the blog post was fun, it kept our announcement of war on the front page for a good amount of time, and a lot of people read it for curiosity.

[Frodark]

[quote name='caleb ryals' timestamp='1296320761' post='2609584']
The reason we didn't immediately send peace terms wasn't due to our lack of preparation, we sent them because we had previously decided to stay out of the war and we didn't want a drug out conflict ready for one or not. your declaration on NpO gave us the opportunity to be benficial to our protectorate is some way. though small, it was better than doing nothing.
[/quote]
While we may have misinterpreted your reasons for the peace talks, it does not change the fact that there is unpreparedness in alot of your alliance.
As previously stated, we respect your reasons for warring with us. Its the same reason we joined VE in the attacks...we like to give back what little we can.

[quote name='caleb ryals' timestamp='1296320761' post='2609584']
secondly, our reason for declining your counter offer was because it refuted our entire reason for declaring on you guys in the first place, to end your fight against NpO.
[/quote]
This point has never been disputed. Actually if you care to look back at a few of our posts we respected you for declining. However declining the offer is what got you where you are today.

[quote name='caleb ryals' timestamp='1296320761' post='2609584']
whiny about getting declared on? oh, no. we do not have a problem fighting you guys. sure, we knew we would lose a good bit of pixels, but pixels are pixles, how many billions of them are there on the internet??? let's not go there, math! why do you think we rejected your counter-offer? we're not stupid enough to believe it to be an idle threat. we saw it coming. no, our problem is not that you are protecting MN by attacking us, which yes, I find very honourable. our problem is you posted your declaration in a blog, not on the OWF, with no actual gov signatures in it at all (and what was that said about its not official without signatures?), showing blatant disregard for KoH's sovereignty as an alliance. perhaps to spare yourselves humiliation for attacking a mini (which happened anyway), or simply because you didn't really think of it as a big deal. either way, we at KoH felt dishonoured by your lack of respect in the way you decided to declare on us, not the declaration itself. and we don't know anything about proper diplomacy?
[/quote]
Your own President stated in the OP that the problem was that VE protected us because he felt we had an "agreement". Just because you are now seeing that your leaders failed to do their homework and verify that those they were talking to had any right to make such agreements does not mean that you should then go desperately search for another reason to justify yourselves.

Grasp at straws much?

[Hereno]

A protector defended it's protectorate. This is new and interesting, as well as cause for alarm.

[Locke]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1296322152' post='2609606']
We here at VE believe an uncluttered OWF is a better OWF. Some alliances post 'milestones', others post 'treaty cancellations', even more post 'gov changes'. We have made 2 threads in god knows how many months, and of those two threads three wars were declared, meanwhile there are micro alliances who post threads in the AA forums weekly, making important announcements like wars, and treaties, get pushed off the front page.

I'm sorry you feel that way about our declaration. How we post and what we post has nothing to do with how we view you as an alliance. Would you have rather I made a post on the last page of our STA/IAA DoW saying we recognized a war? Should I have asked an IRCop to make a global notice? You've already made as many threads this war as we have, why should we clutter things up even more by making another one? I thought the blog post was fun, it kept our announcement of war on the front page for a good amount of time, and a lot of people read it for curiosity.
[/quote]
You tempt to find something menial to make an announcement about.

[Bergerland]

[quote name='caleb ryals' timestamp='1296320761' post='2609584']
-snip-
[/quote]

I'm going to have fun rolling you

[caleb ryals]

[quote name='Frodark' timestamp='1296322655' post='2609615']
While we may have misinterpreted your reasons for the peace talks, it does not change the fact that there is unpreparedness in alot of your alliance.
As previously stated, we respect your reasons for warring with us. Its the same reason we joined VE in the attacks...we like to give back what little we can.


This point has never been disputed. Actually if you care to look back at a few of our posts we respected you for declining. However declining the offer is what got you where you are today.


Your own President stated in the OP that the problem was that VE protected us because he felt we had an "agreement". Just because you are now seeing that your leaders failed to do their homework and verify that those they were talking to had any right to make such agreements does not mean that you should then go desperately search for another reason to justify yourselves.

Grasp at straws much?
[/quote]

Im one of those leaders, and i do my homework. im not justifying anything. i was upset to hear what we thought was a breaking of the 1 on 1 agreement, now i'm ok with it once i realized there never really was one. hey, miscommunications and mistakes are a pervading part of political life, and I'm always willing to be understanding about that.

[quote]I'm going to have fun rolling you [/quote]

thank you. its good to hear that at least im not a boring enemy (over the week, you'll learn i'm not easy guy to troll).

Edited January 29, 2011 by caleb ryals

[Logan]

This is very amusing, mostly because if I managed to to get out of anarchy I was planning on targeting your nations myself. I had also come to the conclusion that I wasn't going to post a DoW either. Great minds think alike I suppose. Anyways why shouldn't VE be able to attack you? Why should they have to post a DoW to send counter raids on your nations? Sounds like your reasoning is purely arbitrary rules that you believe must be followed or something detrimental will happen to CN. What you guys are posting is a lot of "You can't do this," "You must do that," and to be honest it sounds pretty sad. Besides trying to exclaim how great of an offense this is to your alliance, how about you react instead.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1296316014' post='2609521']
lying, two-faced piece of !@#$ you are.
[/quote]

Ah yes, that's what I like to see. Thank you for making it all worth it, old friend. Just keep it coming is all I ask.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Hob Dobson]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1296323051' post='2609625']
You tempt to find something menial to make an announcement about.
[/quote]

You say that as if it would be a bad thing and not an amusing distraction.

[Guest Mike Oldfield]

o/ KoH!
o/ Britishdude!

Welcome to hell guys!
The food is god aweful but the service is killer.
Give em hell!

Merry Fistmas VE!

Edited January 29, 2011 by Mike Oldfield

[TypoNinja]

Ok, this is the final nail in the OWF coffin. There truly is no debate here any longer.

The party line division is now so severe that its now possible to get criticized for protecting our protectorate! Seriously guys? Seriously?

You attacked our Protectorate, what did you think would happen? Cookies and milk?

[LittleRena]

I like how you are all still running with the protecting your protectorate argument when that wasn't the issue here.

[Jesusfreak]

[quote]I like how you are all still running with the protecting your protectorate argument when that wasn't the issue here.

[/quote]
^This^

o/ KoH

Edited January 29, 2011 by Jesusfreak

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1296333309' post='2609837']
I like how you are all still running with the protecting your protectorate argument when that wasn't the issue here.


[/quote]

Oh I know, the issue for some months now has never been about the actual issue, its been about creating as much of a PR storm as possible over anything at all possible.

Reality, or even the topic nominally under discussion, haven't been important to what I've come to think of as "the Bawww Brigade" for a long time. They are more interested in making noise than anything coherent in the hopes that sheer volume will win out when they lack actual reason.

Edited January 29, 2011 by TypoNinja

[Guest Mike Oldfield]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1296332276' post='2609813']
Ok, this is the final nail in the OWF coffin. There truly is no debate here any longer.

The party line division is now so severe that its now possible to get criticized for protecting our protectorate! Seriously guys? Seriously?

You attacked our Protectorate, what did you think would happen? Cookies and milk?
[/quote]
hmmmm... It's ok for you guys to pre-empt a sanctioned alliance based on shoddy evidence that several people shot holes in, but somehow wrong for our side to hit back? I absolutely love how you do business good sir

[lordliam]

Yes. VE isn't in the wrong here. Misfit Nations were the only ones who violated their agreement with KoH not to bring in protectorates. MN, you can't hide behind the "that gov. guy who agreed to it didn't have any power to do so" argument. All government members must have clearly stated responsibilities and restrictions. You might not think it is fair, but it is.

[Guest Mike Oldfield]

[quote name='lordliam' timestamp='1296340960' post='2610011']
Yes. VE isn't in the wrong here. Misfit Nations were the only ones who violated their agreement with KoH not to bring in protectorates. MN, you can't hide behind the "that gov. guy who agreed to it didn't have any power to do so" argument. All government members must have clearly stated responsibilities and restrictions. You might not think it is fair, but it is.
[/quote]
A real voice of reason here, I like you sir, you are win

Edited January 29, 2011 by Mike Oldfield