On the Foolishness of Hope

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]I'll add another former enemy of the NPO to the list of those against this war. While I was once in the NPO, and did quite a bit for them, I always had some differences with them. I wasn't a complete jerk you see, to put it simply and mildly. By late 2007, my differences with them could not be reconciled, and I left. Shortly thereafter I became their enemy after fighting for GATO, criticizing every curb stomp after that vocally (and getting attacked for it), supporting Doitzel's [i]De Profundis[/i], ending up on PZI, joining Vox, etc. I won't bore you with my credentials.

I was PZI listed by them for eight months before they finally considered me not enough of a threat to let go, and they did that only for PR purposes (this was just a month and a half before Karma, so they made a big deal out of it). By the time Karma came around I had a feeling that everything I had fought for, decency, honor, respectable politics (there's an oxymoron for you), but I was sorely disappointed midway through. Alliances such as PC, and a few others, started demanding reparations, fairly excessive and completely unnecessary in my opinion (as far as I was concerned, only the core offenders such as NPO, Valhalla, IRON, GGA, TPF, etc. deserved real punishment) considering the alliances they were targeting were very much on the fringe. TSI, AB (whom GOD tried to disband), Terra Prime (which did disband), and so on. IRON and Valhalla got off either lightly or completely. Once that happened, it was obvious to me that Karma was not in the least bit about justice. It was about petty vengeance for a few, and profit for a few more. Only a few idiots like myself thought it was meant to mean something more, and since I have always held more loyalty to my own ideals and values than I have to any particular side or alliance, I quickly began to scrutinize their every action. For a long time I was alone, as most people preferred then to be blind to what was glaringly obvious to me. The power was going to go to their heads.

NPO was given harsh terms. Terms that lasted close to a year. Never before had an alliance been given such terms, but it was also NPO. I hoped it would be a one time thing. Similar terms, and excessively crippling too, were given to TOP. That was the new rule. While the terms dished out by the NPO after GWIII were by no means cake walks, they did not put alliances at permanent tech deficits. They did not create such a gap. The reparations MK and their buddies liked to get were nothing close to what the NPO ever demanded. Furthermore, many of the alliances who received the blood money never suffered at the hands of the NPO. GATO and FAN, for example, never got one dime of any of it.

Moving onto the present day, we've seen certain alliances put on diplomatic !@#$ lists (unable to sign with anyone, because doing so would make the other party a target of the power structure) due only to petty dislikes. If some alliances are vocal about their disapproval of certain practices they then earn the wrath of the power structure. This kind of blacklisting, however unofficial and informal, reminded me of the old NPO practice. Then there was also the backroom extortion, done by MK of all alliances (and even more often by their little friend in GOONS), away from the public eye so that they could keep up their facade of moral superiority.

This is why I fought and continue to fight today. I hold no love for the NPO. While I've forgiven them for the PZI sentence, and also for the vicious personal attacks upon my character (many of which are now being utilized by MK and friends, interestingly enough), I am not and never will be their friend. I have simply let them be and am indifferent towards them (personally, my alliance is allied to them however, but that does not mean I love them).

Most importantly, however, I realize that the NPO will never again be the danger that it was to the world. That is the very excuse Doomhouse is using, and it is a lie. Those who buy into it are chasing only a bogeyman. That NPO is dead and it will not be coming back. MK, on the other hand, is very much alive, and it has very much become what so many of us fought against only a year and a half ago.[/color]

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1296065481' post='2602919']
[color="#0000FF"] This kind of blacklisting, however unofficial and informal, reminded me of the old NPO practice. Then there was also the backroom extortion, done by MK of all alliances (and even more often by their little friend in GOONS), away from the public eye so that they could keep up their facade of moral superiority.
[/color]
[/quote]
Excuse me, we don't extort money randomly. When we demand money we always have good reasons.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296065991' post='2602931']
Excuse me, we don't extort money randomly. When we demand money we always have good reasons.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I'd beg to differ. No, I won't defend the aiding of rogues, however, demanding $90 million for a mere $3 million is in fact extortion. The punishment is in no way proportional to the offense committed. Granted, everyone has paid, but not due to any reasonableness or fairness of your part. Simply because it was either pay or get rolled. I can only hope that you will soon get what you have coming.

Also, $15 million and 250 tech for a canceled trade, by a newbie, is what your buddies demanded. I wish I could get that whenever I lose a trade. Yes, perfectly good reasons indeed.[/color]

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1296066187' post='2602934']
[color="#0000FF"]I'd beg to differ. No, I won't defend the aiding of rogues, however, demanding $90 million for a mere $3 million is in fact extortion. The punishment is in no way proportional to the offense committed. Granted, everyone has paid, but not due to any reasonableness or fairness of your part. Simply because it was either pay or get rolled. I can only hope that you will soon get what you have coming.
[/color]
[/quote]
It was stated well ahead of time that that would be the penalty and they did it anyway. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

[wickedj]

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1296021812' post='2602218']
You know what I don't understand? Your personal contempt for Pacifica.
[/quote]
This baffles me the most. i had a very long conversation with a friend from FAN last night and his rationale was simply "its revenge for what they did to us" which makes perfect sense but then he went on to say that "war is all good, its just pixels" which left me further confused

Sure MK had it rough as LUE, sure Umbrella had it rough as genmay but these events were eons ago in CN-time. To put it a slightly different way you guys are the ones hammering on about how Sparta doesnt suck like they did in Karma war and how ODN arent the cowards they were when they bailed in NoCB(Right war? i confuse this one easily) when people bring these events up

And since, you know, we're all about settling old grudges or attacking people for not honoring their treaty i suppose the old school folks of Fark or GATO should line up for their pound of flesh, likewise where is your DoW on MHA? How many perma-treaties did they get out of. How about iFOK and PC for the NEW war

[quote]Also, $15 million and 250 tech for a canceled trade, by a newbie, is what your buddies demanded. I wish I could get that whenever I lose a trade. Yes, perfectly good reasons indeed. [/quote]
Heh, i trade with someone from MK. guess they better start the taxing..just incase, yaknow

Edited January 26, 2011 by wickedj

[Commisar Gaunt]

[quote name='Amonra' timestamp='1296054868' post='2602716']
When Pacifica had its boot on the neck of some random alliance and said similar things, you responded that Karma must destroy them...
I ask "What will destroy you now?"
[/quote]

Seeing as how we're mostly winning via superior nations and not just the dog piles of old, I don't think that scenario will unfold

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296066544' post='2602938']
It was stated well ahead of time that that would be the penalty and they did it anyway. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I couldn't care less whether you said so in advance. It does not change the fact that the punishment far exceeds the crime.[/color]

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1296067736' post='2602961']
[color="#0000FF"]I couldn't care less whether you said so in advance. It does not change the fact that the punishment far exceeds the crime.[/color]
[/quote]
I'm playing the world's smallest violin.

Regardless, I look forward to seeing you the battlefield, if NSO does enter. Should be fun.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Sardonic

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296066544' post='2602938']
It was stated well ahead of time that that would be the penalty and they did it anyway. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
[/quote]

And when at some point, because it happened to GOONS, Vol.1 and GOONS, Moon Edition, forces come together and give you the spanking you've earned, no ragequitting, ok?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1296068120' post='2602975']
And when at some point, because it happened to GOONS, Vol.1 and GOONS, Moon Edition, forces come together and give you the spanking you've earned, no ragequitting, ok?
[/quote]
As usual, you are wrong. GOONS were ultimately triumphant on the moon because of our diplomatic superiority, as the world fell into the night we were on top with the help of our allies. But that's neither here nor there really.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296057085' post='2602758']
You know not of what you speak, and your speculations are utterly baseless. While in the OP of the DoW thread jokingly declared the NpO "ruse" a "distaction" the preemption of NPO was something that evolved naturally and was not planned before the war began. Also there was no manipulation at all.
[/quote]
So before this war they werent considered threatening enough to attack. In the 5 days after the war began their being idle suddenly made them a major threat to you and the whole world if Archon is to be believed? Your timeline in addition too the dire warnings in the DoW combined seem to incredible to be believable.

Your theory of "natural evolution" lacks a missing link or three. I see the hand of intelligent design despite your denials

Edited January 26, 2011 by Alterego

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1296068491' post='2603009']
So before this war they werent considered threatening enough to attack. In the 5 days after the war began their being idle suddenly made them a major threat to you and the whole world if Archon is to be believed? Your timeline in addition too the dire warnings in the DoW combined seem to incredible to be believable.

Your theory of "natural evolution" lacks a missing link or three.
[/quote]
The assumption going into the war was that Legion wasn't cowardly enough to not defend NpO, I guess that was our fault for expecting anything but spinelessness from them. From Legion -> NPO and STA->TPF->NPO we inferred that NPO would be taking part. It quickly became apparent that they were electing not to take part in the conflict. We decided then that it was too dangerous to let them escape the conflict unscathed, so we decided to help FAN achieve vengeance on them. There's not a whole lot to it really.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Sardonic

[Alterego]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296068902' post='2603029']
The assumption going into the war was that Legion wasn't cowardly enough to not defend NpO, I guess that was our fault for expecting anything but spinelessness from them. From Legion -> NPO and STA->TPF->NPO we inferred that NPO would be taking part. It quickly became apparent that they were electing not to take part in the conflict. We decided then that it was too dangerous to let them escape the conflict unscathed, so we decided to help FAN achieve vengeance on them. There's not a whole lot to it really.
[/quote]
It is beyond believable an alliance(GOONS) who Labeled Legion WAE and almost to the last man called them cowards on a daily basis was surprised they chickened out of yet nother war and this led you to believe NPO was the most dangerous alliance on the planet. Natural evolution indeed.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Alterego

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296057085' post='2602758']
You know not of what you speak, and your speculations are utterly baseless. While in the OP of the DoW thread jokingly declared the NpO "ruse" a "distaction" the preemption of NPO was something that evolved naturally and was not planned before the war began. Also there was no manipulation at all.
[/quote]
Except for the fact that I [b]know[/b] this was planned in advance because someone high up in your grouping actually told me so, you make an excellent point.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1296070717' post='2603080']
Except for the fact that I [b]know[/b] this was planned in advance because someone high up in your grouping actually told me so, you make an excellent point.
[/quote]

You have some proof you'd like to share with the rest of the class?

Edited January 26, 2011 by tamerlane

[Goldie]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1296070717' post='2603080']
Except for the fact that I [b]know[/b] this was planned in advance because someone high up in your grouping actually told me so, you make an excellent point.
[/quote]
Well, you're wrong, because no one could have told you about a pre-empt before it was even proposed. I saw logs of your queries with people, you aren't as informed as you think.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1296070717' post='2603080']
Except for the fact that I [b]know[/b] this was planned in advance because someone high up in your grouping actually told me so, you make an excellent point.
[/quote]
I sincerely doubt that.

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1296070157' post='2603066']
It is beyond believable an alliance(GOONS) who Labeled Legion WAE and almost to the last man called them cowards on a daily basis was surprised they chickened out of yet nother war and this led you to believe NPO was the most dangerous alliance on the planet. Natural evolution indeed.
[/quote]
I don't think you *got* my post.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296068291' post='2602994']
As usual, you are wrong. GOONS were ultimately triumphant on the moon because of our diplomatic superiority, as the world fell into the night we were on top with the help of our allies. But that's neither here nor there really.
[/quote]

Not in Round 2, it wasn't....

Guardian members here, also known as 'William Riker'.

By the time the server shut down, few people cared about Round 1 anymore, but if you want to claim that victory, feel free. My point in any event is that anyone can play the bad guy, and anyone can demand whatever they want in terms of cash/tech/etc. You might even get it. However, the lesson learned and relearned around here is that those that do suffer consequences. FAN, \m/, GOONS I, NpO, NPO, /b/, there are no exceptions. Just man up and stick with it. I did and I'm glad I did.

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296024955' post='2602323']
Fine. Would you prefer to be lied to in a declaration of war or would you prefer to have the truth?
[/quote]

ahem. i would rather them be honest. but it wouldnt make me any less angry tbh.

[Amonra]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296068902' post='2603029']
The assumption going into the war was that Legion wasn't cowardly enough to not defend NpO, I guess that was our fault for expecting anything but spinelessness from them. From Legion -> NPO and STA->TPF->NPO we inferred that NPO would be taking part. It quickly became apparent that they were electing not to take part in the conflict. We decided then that it was too dangerous to let them escape the conflict unscathed, so we decided to help FAN achieve vengeance on them. There's not a whole lot to it really.
[/quote]
So from the beginning you were hitting dominos that would eventually hit NPO.
That sounds like this was all about the NPO and when the dominos did not fall the way you wanted them to, you just went ahead and attacked the orginal target any way, right?

Edited January 26, 2011 by Amonra

[Sardonic]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1296072106' post='2603124']
Not in Round 2, it wasn't....

Guardian members here, also known as 'William Riker'.

By the time the server shut down, few people cared about Round 1 anymore, but if you want to claim that victory, feel free. My point in any event is that anyone can play the bad guy, and anyone can demand whatever they want in terms of cash/tech/etc. You might even get it. However, the lesson learned and relearned around here is that those that do suffer consequences. FAN, \m/, GOONS I, NpO, NPO, /b/, there are no exceptions. Just man up and stick with it. I did and I'm glad I did.
[/quote]
Round 2 doesn't count obviously, given who was in charge there. Not all GOONSes are created equal.

[quote name='Amonra' timestamp='1296072599' post='2603137']
So from the beginning you were hitting dominos that would eventually hit NPO.
That sounds like this was all about the NPO and when the dominos did not fall the way you wanted them to, you just went ahead and attacked the orginal target any way, right?
[/quote]

Put your tinfoil hat away, we didn't "target" anybody ahead of time. But as the conflict unfolded (or rather, failed to unfold) certain political realities became inescapable. So we went with what we were given.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Sardonic

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1296072676' post='2603139']
Round 2 doesn't count obviously, given who was in charge there. Not all GOONSes are created equal.[/quote]

I have spoken at length to Louisa about that very subject...and yeah, Saniel did you NO favors in Round 2.

[quote]Put your tinfoil hat away, we didn't "target" anybody ahead of time. But as the conflict unfolded (or rather, failed to unfold) certain political realities became inescapable. So we went with what we were given.[/quote]

Any operation involving one Order or the other has to have a contingency plan for the other entering the conflict, even if the plan is to keep one tied up with treaties. I would find it odd if you didn't, frankly. I would have.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296020965' post='2602164']
I don't care about what happens to Pacifica. It's Pacifica. I would draw the line at permanent war, viceroys, or EZI of their leadership, but that's about it. I was overwhelmingly happy when I heard that Doomhouse and FAN had hit NPO. I think it's very fitting that FAN should be among the alliances NPO has to surrender to and I hope they make surrender terms painful.

That having said, after some thought, I had the slightest twinge of conscience when I realised that NPO had been through Karma, stayed in reps for months, only to get rolled again without any prospects for the future. But I'll live with myself. If any alliance deserves this, it's them.
[/quote]

heh. what a petty little person you are. you make GATO a worse alliance simply by wearing their AA with an attitude like that. FAN may have some right to hit Pacifica sure, but Doomhouse certainly has none. and Pacifica has already paid a very stiff price for their previous actions. to think that despite having done nothing in the past year and a half somehow means they should suffer the same fate yet again is ridiculous and only shows that you are very much more the monster of NPO past than NPO is now.

what you want would be like me wishing the same fate on you and just you because you did something bad in your past and you deserve to pay a painful price for it now and then once you have paid and done nothing, to pay for it again and again and again... unfortunately to me that sounds similar to EZI (yes, i know it is not EZI) because the alliance (or in this case you) is paying for the same crime(s) multiple times. this is especially fitting for alliances as the NPO now has a different Emperor and different gov members as well as different members (not all but many new members) so it is basically like they have rerolled.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1296026565' post='2602364']
There has never, ever been an airtight CB by any sort of conventional stardard. There only instances where there wasn't mass complaint about a CB is when it's an isolated alliance with no allies. Let's not look back and imagine pretty butterflies and unicorns were prancing around. I can literally make an argument for or against any single possible CB you can come up with.
[/quote]

NEW war was fairly airtight. The only complaint I saw was from NEW themselves.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1296076542' post='2603254']
heh. what a petty little person you are. you make GATO a worse alliance simply by wearing their AA with an attitude like that. FAN may have some right to hit Pacifica sure, but Doomhouse certainly has none. and Pacifica has already paid a very stiff price for their previous actions. to think that despite having done nothing in the past year and a half somehow means they should suffer the same fate yet again is ridiculous and only shows that you are very much more the monster of NPO past than NPO is now.

what you want would be like me wishing the same fate on you and just you because you did something bad in your past and you deserve to pay a painful price for it now and then once you have paid and done nothing, to pay for it again and again and again... unfortunately to me that sounds similar to EZI (yes, i know it is not EZI) because the alliance (or in this case you) is paying for the same crime(s) multiple times. this is especially fitting for alliances as the NPO now has a different Emperor and different gov members as well as different members (not all but many new members) so it is basically like they have rerolled.
[/quote]

Kalasin is a very good person and her opinion is respected as a difference of view. Please do not personally attack her or GATO just because she has a different view than you. Read down a little latter and you'll see her post was somewhat misunderstood by some.