Response to Rebel Virginia's False Accusations

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Kilkenny' timestamp='1295889200' post='2596743']
It is all flimsy and circumstancial at best....soemthing that should have been dealt with diplomatically...something you didn't even try to do.
[/quote]

They attacked TPF (GOD and Athens at least and their allies at the time) over what amounted to an expired CB that was generated during a war that had long since past, regarding a spy operation that should never have made it off the drawing board because it was just too far out there to have any chance of success.

You expect calm, rational analysis followed by a measured response. You expect too much.

[Joe Izuzu]

It is truly sad to see someone of Bob Janova's caliber sink to the depths of inanity where he is currently mired. In the past, I have admired him for at least maintaining the semblance of objectivity, but it appears that those days are gone. He, and the rest of the VE spin squad, are simply resorting to the "if we say it long enough, some of the gullible people out there will believe it" tactic. Very disappointing, Bob.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1295862919' post='2596350']
All I'm saying is that the idea that just because Dajobo claimed he had no interest in spying doesn't make it the case and the argument that is does is simply hilarious.
[/quote]

Well I agree that's a silly idea, but I certainly havent advanced it and I dont really think anyone else has either.

In all the logs released, Lennox has been the instigator, Dajobo not only denied that he would condone spying, but much more importantly he clearly wasnt giving orders, and he wasnt offering inducements. The line we are told constitutes "sending a spy to VE" somehow is only a casual statement of fact - that VE and MK, unlike MHA, were places where stuff would happen. (And it was uttered after Lennox made a clearly ridiculous statement that was designed to elicit exactly that response.) If that's "spying" EVERY current or former alliance leader on the planet is certainly guilty as well.

On the other side we have Impero. Like Dajobo, he looked at screenshots Lennox sent him. But he also did a lot more than that. He was coaching Lennox, giving specific directions to get what he wanted. He requested those screenshots, he didnt just receive links in a PM out of the blue. Inducements are in evidence also, as Lennox was fast-tracked into VE and given protection immediately, along with direct aid. And on top of that we find that it was actually Impero himself who took the screenshots, gave them to Lennox, and ordered him in turn to pass them on to Dajobo!

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1295899551' post='2596983']
Well I agree that's a silly idea, but I certainly havent advanced it and I dont really think anyone else has either.
[/quote]


Actually its pretty much the entirety of the defence advanced by polar and its allies. Daj wasn't serious so we shouldn't hold him responsible for his actions, like somehow saying "Just kidding!" magically absolves him.


[quote]In all the logs released, Lennox has been the instigator, Dajobo not only denied that he would condone spying, but much more importantly he clearly wasnt giving orders, and he wasnt offering inducements. The line we are told constitutes "sending a spy to VE" somehow is only a casual statement of fact - that VE and MK, unlike MHA, were places where stuff would happen. (And it was uttered after Lennox made a clearly ridiculous statement that was designed to elicit exactly that response.) If that's "spying" EVERY current or former alliance leader on the planet is certainly guilty as well.[/quote]

It comes off as a throwaway one liners in a feeble attempt at CYA 'I can't condone spying but here, have some suggestions for names, oh and no your initial target of MHA is bad, go to VE or MK'

The fact of the matter is that however the conversation unfolded a spy came to VE with if not outright direction at least encouragement from Daj. That is the offense. One that Polar never bothered to deny, not "we didn't" but "he thought he was just messing around" Polars excuses all revolve around motive, not whether or not the facts are in doubt. All attempts at spin from polar and its allies are addressing motive, Daj's state of mind and intentions. These are both feeble excuses that ring false, and irrelevant. If I start nuking another alliance why I did it is irrelavent, I'd be a nuclear rogue and dealt with. Likewise Polar gov sent us a spy, why they did it doesn't matter. We caught a Polar spy, there is but one answer for that.

[quote]
On the other side we have Impero. Like Dajobo, he looked at screenshots Lennox sent him. But he also did a lot more than that. He was coaching Lennox, giving specific directions to get what he wanted. He requested those screenshots, he didnt just receive links in a PM out of the blue. Inducements are in evidence also, as Lennox was fast-tracked into VE and given protection immediately, along with direct aid. And on top of that we find that it was actually Impero himself who took the screenshots, gave them to Lennox, and ordered him in turn to pass them on to Dajobo!
[/quote]

You really are bad at this aren't you? Take a few minutes to consider why what I quoted is a complete load of garbage.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295902053' post='2597052']
You really are bad at this aren't you? Take a few minutes to consider why what I quoted is a complete load of garbage.
[/quote]

Why dont you take a moment to consider why you have had to turn your brain completely off and rely on [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duckspeak#Duckspeak"]duckspeak[/url] just to keep posting?

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1295902595' post='2597062']
Why dont you take a moment to consider why you have had to turn your brain completely off and rely on [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duckspeak#Duckspeak"]duckspeak[/url] just to keep posting?
[/quote]


Ohh your one of the mindless regurgitaters of the party line! There are so many, its hard to keep up, sorry. Now that I know that I'll avoid asking questions of you that I know you won't answer since it would involve you admitting fault.

Let me spell it out for you.

You are complaining about how we go about catching spys that another alliance sent to us as if that would magically absolve the alliance who sent us a the spy from its initial crime. That's why its a load of garbage.

This is much like the entirety of the drivel coming from Polar and its allies, unable to address any of the actual facts because they were indeed caught with their hand in the cookie jar, they resort to misdirection, deliberately attempting to cloud the issue to direct discussion away from relavent points, or the old standby of character attacks, and of course the classic "NoU!".

Polar did something stupid and got caught at it, but instead of addressing that, lets discuss how shady VE is for being able to catch the spy in action and nab proof of government involvement!

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies"]This list[/url] of logical fallacies is practically a point for point detail of everything that's wrong with all the crap spewed out by Polar and its supporters here, its almost awe inspiring that they can hit so many. If I had to guess I'd say you were all playing Fallacy Bingo and were racing to see who can get a full card first.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295902053' post='2597052']
....Daj's state of mind and intentions....[/quote]


Actually, Daj's state of mind and intentions are exactly what your side has been trying to impute from the extremely vague quotes you keep using as your "evidence". The problem is that the extremely weak inferences you keep making are countered by the specific and unambiguous statments he made during the conversation. It is clear to everyone except the spin doctors for VE and crew, that Daj had no intent to spy on you and, in fact, did not spy on you.


[quote] All attempts at spin from [s]polar[/s] VE and its allies are addressing motive, Daj's state of mind and intentions. These are both feeble excuses that ring false, and irrelevant[/quote]

That statement is actually much more convincing when you use the correct AA.

[quote]We [i]caught[/i] a Polar spy[/quote]

I could say that "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.", but that would be silly. You obviously know what it means, you just insist on using it in your feeble efforts to sway public opinion. Once again, Lennox was [b]never[/b] a [i]Polar[/i] spy. He was, however, by his own admission and by Impero's admission, a [i]Viridian Entente[/i] spy.

[quote]This list of logical fallacies is practically a point for point detail of everything that's wrong with all the crap spewed out by Polar and its supporters here...[/quote]

Funny, when I review that list, it makes me think of [i]your[/i] crap. Accusing others of the same behaviors you display on a regular basis? Yup, that is VE to a t.



[quote]You really are bad at this aren't you?[/quote]

This just makes people think you are talking to yourself while looking in the mirror.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295903321' post='2597077']
Ohh your one of the mindless regurgitaters of the party line! There are so many, its hard to keep up, sorry. Now that I know that I'll avoid asking questions of you that I know you won't answer since it would involve you admitting fault.[/quote]

No, actually, I am someone that has supported Viridia in many ways for years, who has no ties at all to the opposing side at this point. I defended you in the NPO/OV incident with the exact same arguments I am using now, and for the same reason.

And frankly, the fact that you lot have forced me to agree with Pacifican posters here, the first time in [i]years[/i] I have agreed with them on anything of substance, is something I find so unpleasant I cant even keep my food down at the moment. Having, as I do, no ties whatsoever, past or present, with your current opponents, the implication that I need to take a particular position to avoid "admitting fault" is particularly ludicrous, and yet one more example to show that you are in fact simply flinging crap as fast as you can, desperately hoping something sticks, or failing that at least cause the thread to degenerate into such a steaming pile that people will tune it out instead of reading it.

I think that is more than enough personal digression, I regret the necessity, and kindly ask you to cease your attempts to derail and obfuscate the thread with baseless personal attacks in the future.

[quote]You are complaining about how we go about catching spys that another alliance sent to us as if that would magically absolve the alliance who sent us a the spy from its initial crime. That's why its a load of garbage.[/quote]

No, I have pointed out that no one sent the spy to you, rather Impero sent the spy to Polaris, which the logs Impero himself has posted demonstrate quite clearly.

The only significant difference between this and the Pacifica/OV matter where I defended you with everything I had is that Pacifica was more polished in execution and thus the evidence of their malfeasance was never so solid and clear as it is here.

[quote]This is much like the entirety of the drivel coming from Polar and its allies, unable to address any of the actual facts because they were indeed caught with their hand in the cookie jar, they resort to misdirection, deliberately attempting to cloud the issue to direct discussion away from relavent points, or the old standby of character attacks, and of course the classic "NoU!". [/quote]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection"]Project[/url] much? It seems to be all you've been able to do since this started.

I have heard over the past few days from quite a few people, btw, that like me are historical friends and supporters of Viridia, that like me are shocked and disgusted by the actions of Impero here. In addition you can see a great many public posts here from people who admit that all I am saying is true, and just dont care because they hate Polar and want to see it burn. The latter group may continue to support you in the current war, but down the road they will certainly remember this when they need to decide whether or not to trust you.

You are destroying the Entente, and whether the chickens come home to roost before or after this war is done, karma will not be denied. You of all people should appreciate that.

[Teddyyo]

Because the opinion of Sigrun Vapneir decides actions taken by any and all alliances. Leaders, watch out, the omnipotent opinion of Sigrun Vapneir is now in charge.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1295905144' post='2597130']
Actually, Daj's state of mind and intentions are exactly what your side has been trying to impute from the extremely vague quotes you keep using as your "evidence". The problem is that the extremely weak inferences you keep making are countered by the specific and unambiguous statments he made during the conversation. It is clear to everyone except the spin doctors for VE and crew, that Daj had no intent to spy on you and, in fact, did not spy on you.
[/quote]

No we aren't. We really don't care why he did it or what he was thinking. What he did do was point a spy at us. That's what hes getting his alliance rolled for. Polar (and supporters) Are trying to excuse the actions using his motive or state of mind as excuse.


[quote]That statement is actually much more convincing when you use the correct AA. [/quote]

Repeating it does not make it so, one again we never addressed motive in the DoW. Sending the spy, that was it. Nobody ever said why he was sent mattered, sending him at all is the transgression. It is you who have attempted to use motive and intent as a reason why sending us a spy would not be an act of war.


[quote]I could say that "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.", but that would be silly. You obviously know what it means, you just insist on using it in your feeble efforts to sway public opinion. Once again, Lennox was [b]never[/b] a [i]Polar[/i] spy. He was, however, by his own admission and by Impero's admission, a [i]Viridian Entente[/i] spy.
[/quote]

Outright lies? Now? usually we just restrict it to spin, but OK, if you have to reach that far go for it.

Lennox went to polar gov, stated intent to be a spy, got suggestions and guidance from polar gov, and then returned to polar gov with sensitive information from VE's restricted areas. If that doesn't make one a spy, nothing will.

Lennox however never spied for VE, as he never obtained, or attempted to obtain on our behalf any restricted information. The closest he came to that was Daj incriminating himself in query to Lennox. He didn't even get log dumped from somewhere else.

[quote]Funny, when I review that list, it makes me think of [i]your[/i] crap. Accusing others of the same behaviors you display on a regular basis? Yup, that is VE to a t.[/quote]

No the truly hilarious part is that you've pulled at least half a dozen off that list in your reply, already. I'd say "oh the irony" Except it isnt, its exactly the behavior I expected.


[quote]
This just makes people think you are talking to yourself while looking in the mirror.
[/quote]

Ohh look the classice "NoU!" I cited not long ago! Boy I love being proven right.

[TypoNinja]

Double post cause I ran out of quotes, there's a limit, who knew?

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1295905828' post='2597149']
No, actually, I am someone that has supported Viridia in many ways for years, who has no ties at all to the opposing side at this point. I defended you in the NPO/OV incident with the exact same arguments I am using now, and for the same reason.

And frankly, the fact that you lot have forced me to agree with Pacifican posters here, the first time in [i]years[/i] I have agreed with them on anything of substance, is something I find so unpleasant I cant even keep my food down at the moment. Having, as I do, no ties whatsoever, past or present, with your current opponents, the implication that I need to take a particular position to avoid "admitting fault" is particularly ludicrous, and yet one more example to show that you are in fact simply flinging crap as fast as you can, desperately hoping something sticks, or failing that at least cause the thread to degenerate into such a steaming pile that people will tune it out instead of reading it.

I think that is more than enough personal digression, I regret the necessity, and kindly ask you to cease your attempts to derail and obfuscate the thread with baseless personal attacks in the future.
[/quote]

You ask? That's rich.

The fact that I can predict almost verbatim what will be said based solely on the AA (and a few choice names) is simply a testament to the amount of garbage people are willing to spew to cover up their own incompetence.

The fact that the entire above quoted section is nothing but logical fallacies from the list [i]I just posted[/i] shows that not only are you more interested in towing a party line than anything else despite your protestations you aren't even very good at it since when handed a resource that show's you what you are doing wrong you still continue with it.

False Comparison, Appeal to Emotion, Appeal to Authority, Straw Man, Argument ad Neasum, Ad hominem. And thats just in the above quoted paragraph, the list is [i]much[/i] longer if I expand it to the whole thread.


[quote]No, I have pointed out that no one sent the spy to you, rather Impero sent the spy to Polaris, which the logs Impero himself has posted demonstrate quite clearly. [/quote]

No you haven't this is an outright lie in any case. You are a liar for speaking this. Lennox was speaking to Polar gov during his return, and polar gov gave him the name of the Viridian Entente. This isn't even disputed by Polaris, the only part they dispute was his intent when speaking such.

[quote]The only significant difference between this and the Pacifica/OV matter where I defended you with everything I had is that Pacifica was more polished in execution and thus the evidence of their malfeasance was never so solid and clear as it is here. [/quote]

No the significant difference here is degrees of involvement, Seth prior to Karma accepted information offered to him. Daj spoke with and directed a spy towards us, and my favorite part was when Daj asked for the rehost of the information when he couldn't view it the first time. That took him indisputably from a passive role in receiving information, to an active role in seeking it out.


[quote][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection"]Project[/url] much? It seems to be all you've been able to do since this started. [/quote]

Ohhh look, another "NoU!" retort! I seem to be collecting those lately. Come on, why would you even bother? I can more easily claim the exact same thing, I can even get really screwy and claim that you attempt to assert projection on me is projection itself from you. Isn't this fun?

[quote]I have heard over the past few days from quite a few people, btw, that like me are historical friends and supporters of Viridia, that like me are shocked and disgusted by the actions of Impero here. In addition you can see a great many public posts here from people who admit that all I am saying is true, and just dont care because they hate Polar and want to see it burn. The latter group may continue to support you in the current war, but down the road they will certainly remember this when they need to decide whether or not to trust you. [/quote]

I haven't I've seen the exact same people whining at us now who always have, the people posting against us are completely predictable based on AA.

Oh and you've used another logical fallacy here, guess which one it is?

[quote]
You are destroying the Entente, and whether the chickens come home to roost before or after this war is done, karma will not be denied. You of all people should appreciate that.
[/quote]

No, we are destroying Polar for spying on us, we are doing just fine.

Also, Appeal to emotion.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295908716' post='2597206']
...my favorite part was when Daj asked for the rehost of the information....[/quote]

Except he never did, he simply said the link didn't work.

And since you are so insistent on promoting that link, here are a few of the fallacies that you have been guilty of using:

Argument from repetition, Appeal to ridicule, Argument from ignorance, Fallacy of the single cause, False attribution, contextomy, Incomplete comparison, Psychologist's fallacy, etc.

I could go on, but that is enough for now.

[Beagle]

[quote]Lennox went to polar gov, stated intent to be a spy, got suggestions and guidance from polar gov, and then returned to polar gov with sensitive information from VE's restricted areas. If that doesn't make one a spy, nothing will.[/quote]

technically it's not sensitive information if the leader of the alliance gave said information with the intent that it go outside of the alliance.

[Sulmar]

I'm going to Texas Sharpshooter the !@#$ out of you all.

[Joe Izuzu]

Since I am sure you will ask for specifics....

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295908716' post='2597206']
Double post cause I ran out of quotes, there's a limit, who knew?

You ask? That's rich. ([b](NoU)[/b])

The fact that I can predict almost verbatim what will be said based solely on the AA (and a few choice names) is simply a testament to the amount of garbage people are willing to spew to cover up their own incompetence. ([b]Ad hominem[/b], [b]Appeal to ridicule[/b], [b]Judgmental language[/b], [b]Appeal to motive[/b])

The fact that the entire above quoted section is nothing but logical fallacies from the list [i]I just posted[/i] shows that not only are you more interested in towing a party line than anything else despite your protestations you aren't even very good at it since when handed a resource that show's you what you are doing wrong you still continue with it. ([b]Straw man[/b], [b]Ad hominem[/b], [b]Argument from repetition[/b], [b]Appeal to ridicule[/b])

False Comparison, Appeal to Emotion, Appeal to Authority, Straw Man, Argument ad Neasum, Ad hominem. And thats just in the above quoted paragraph, the list is [i]much[/i] longer if I expand it to the whole thread. ([b]False attribution[/b], [b]Proof by verbosity[/b])




No you haven't this is an outright lie in any case. You are a liar for speaking this. Lennox was speaking to Polar gov during his return, and polar gov gave him the name of the Viridian Entente. This isn't even disputed by Polaris, the only part they dispute was his intent when speaking such. ([b]Ad Hominem[/b], [b]False attribution[/b], [b]Judgmental language[/b], [b]Argument ad Neasum[/b])



No the significant difference here is degrees of involvement, Seth prior to Karma accepted information offered to him. Daj spoke with and directed a spy towards us, and my favorite part was when Daj asked for the rehost of the information when he couldn't view it the first time. That took him indisputably from a passive role in receiving information, to an active role in seeking it out. ([b]False analogy[/b], [b]Incomplete comparison[/b], [b]Wishful thinking[/b])




Ohhh look, another "NoU!" retort! I seem to be collecting those lately. Come on, why would you even bother? I can more easily claim the exact same thing, I can even get really screwy and claim that you attempt to assert projection on me is projection itself from you. Isn't this fun? ([b]NoU[/b])



I haven't I've seen the exact same people whining at us now who always have, the people posting against us are completely predictable based on AA. ([b]Appeal to Ridicule[/b], [b]Straw man[/b])

Oh and you've used another logical fallacy here, guess which one it is?

No, we are destroying Polar for spying on us, we are doing just fine. ([b]Appeal to Emotion[/b])

Also, Appeal to emotion.
[/quote]


You're right, this is fun. I think I may go back and annotate more of your posts.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Joe Izuzu

[Sulmar]

Also, I'm actually totally done with logical fallacies. It's not wrong if it works.

[zzzptm]

This is a goldmine of propaganda for Pacifica.

Congratulations to one and all for making this happen.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1295910327' post='2597249']
Except he never did, he simply said the link didn't work.

And since you are so insistent on promoting that link, here are a few of the fallacies that you have been guilty of using:

Argument from repetition, Appeal to ridicule, Argument from ignorance, Fallacy of the single cause, False attribution, contextomy, Incomplete comparison, Psychologist's fallacy, etc.

I could go on, but that is enough for now.
[/quote]

This is why no one really bothers to argue with the idiot anymore.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295920723' post='2597587']
This is why no one really bothers to argue with the idiot anymore.
[/quote]

and here i thought he stopped arguing with us... well either way, my intelligence is a bit safer from not engaging with him.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295920807' post='2597590']
and here i thought he stopped arguing with us... well either way, my intelligence is a bit safer from not engaging with him.
[/quote]

He probably did. Either way works for me.

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295920723' post='2597587']
This is why no one really bothers to argue with the idiot anymore.
[/quote]

I thought it was because we stopped caring.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1295921748' post='2597634']
I thought it was because we stopped caring.
[/quote]

There are a myriad of reasons.

[bbrownso]

No matter how many times we put forth facts, they'll keep printing the legend.

The lack of ability to admit poor judgment is amazing but not surprising.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Brandon Simonson

[NoFish]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295877306' post='2596498']
actually it makes it quite relevant since the biggest part of the CB centers around Dajobo having the intent to spy on VE. this has been proven to be blatantly false. he had no interest to spy on VE whatsoever and all you and others have done since then is point to a single line as the end all be all and ignore the damning evidence that shows he had no intention of becoming a spymaster nor spying period.

since you are not Dajobo, it is quite hilarious of you to state what he did or did not intend to do. especially since the only evidence available shows something contrary to what you state. but then again, since your boss was in on the set up, i doubt you will claim anything else.
[/quote]
Once again, your argument is "Dajobo can't have wanted to spy on VE because he said so!" I, if you bothered to notice, never said anything about what Dajobo did or didn't intend to do. I am simply pointing out a simple fallacy to a single argument that you have repeated endlessly. When I look at the Dajobo-Lennox logs I see what looks to me like Dajobo setting up a spy while using doublespeak to maintain official deniability. When you look at them you see Dajobo joking around and making friendly suggestions. The interpretation simply depends on how much you trust Dajobo's integrity. Given that he's high gov in Polar, I trust him about as far as I can throw him.

Also, there's no evidence whatsoever that Xiphosis or Sera were involved in the inciting incident of this war. The only logs relating to Xiph at all are when he was giving his frank advice to Impero, an allied leader.

[bbrownso]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1295925774' post='2597780']
Once again, your argument is "Dajobo can't have wanted to spy on VE because he said so!" I, if you bothered to notice, never said anything about what Dajobo did or didn't intend to do. I am simply pointing out a simple fallacy to a single argument that you have repeated endlessly. When I look at the Dajobo-Lennox logs I see what looks to me like Dajobo setting up a spy while using doublespeak to maintain official deniability. When you look at them you see Dajobo joking around and making friendly suggestions. The interpretation simply depends on how much you trust Dajobo's integrity. Given that he's high gov in Polar, I trust him about as far as I can throw him.

Also, there's no evidence whatsoever that Xiphosis or Sera were involved in the inciting incident of this war. The only logs relating to Xiph at all are when he was giving his frank advice to Impero, an allied leader.
[/quote]

Was the frank advice Xiph saying that VE should attack NpO? If so, by analogy, that's an order to attack. Not merely his opinion because he's high government member that someone might not trust.

Just saying.