Declaration of War From the Viridian Entente

[Beagle]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1295532254' post='2586262']
Viridia disbanded because it was annihilated to the edge of extinction after refusing to move from the Green sphere, possibly the only action I've seen worthy of respect in the Entente's entire history. Unfortunately, it still got them nowhere good.
[/quote]

Slightly inaccurate. VE disbanded before the fight really began. They were not annihilated to the edge of extinction after refusing to move from the green sphere. VE immediately disbanded.


[url=http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/index.php?showtopic=70172]VE acknowledgement of war May 25, 2007[/url]
[url=http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/index.php?showtopic=70346]VE disbands, May 26, 2007[/url]

Edited January 21, 2011 by Beagle

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Beagle' timestamp='1295650756' post='2589668']
Slightly inaccurate. VE disbanded before the fight really began. They were not annihilated to the edge of extinction after refusing to move from the green sphere. VE immediately disbanded.


[url="http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/index.php?showtopic=70172"]VE acknowledgement of war May 25, 2007[/url]
[url="http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/index.php?showtopic=70346"]VE disbands, May 26, 2007[/url]
[/quote]
I stand corrected.

Though that's even worse.

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='gantanX' timestamp='1295538883' post='2586431']
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?search=441163&Extended=1]VE must be the most honorable alliances in the game, they PUNISH the spy swift and without mercy [/url]
[/quote]
They've yet to aknowledge this yet and I doubt they will. I could be proven wrong from a Viridian, so please tell me why you have aided a nation who spied on you?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Aguacenta' timestamp='1295539606' post='2586450']
@Rayvon, Haflinger, Solaris and Others

I find it funny that my motivations for leaving should come up in public. Especially because I've in large part kept them to myself and I'd appreciate it if the lot of you would cease speculating on what I've done and why I've done it. I'm sure that you can come up with many reasons why it "seems" I left, but my reasons are my own, and attempting to speculate about them will certainly be fruitless, Especially when you consider that the events that you are still bickering back and forth over happened nearly a year ago and is becoming increasingly irrelevant to anything. So if you would kindly cease bringing up what you may think my intentions and motivations may have been, I'd be much obliged.

Regards,
lost
[/quote]
Well, if it helps, I wasn't speculating on your reasons for leaving VE. Frankly I don't care why you left, that's between you and VE.

I just thought the claim that you left because you threw a hissyfit over not getting promoted was hilarious in the extreme, given what I know of your character.

[Ellis]

[quote name='NewPoseidon' timestamp='1295556690' post='2587085']
....it's like living in a different universe. NpO didn't spy, NPO wasn't that bad, VE is an empty shell. When I tune in tomorrow will I see arguments in favor of fallout shelters?

Talk it off NpO (&NSO&NPO), talk it off. Good luck with your rebuilding when this is all over. Keep in mind though, that the more you flame VE the less willing VE members will be to give you lenient terms. Just some advice.
[/quote]

So, I don't really see how you saying 'shut up or your terms get worse' is any better than many of the things NPO did over the years, and strictly speaking, NpO at worst assisted a spy and accepted information, something you didn't accept as a valid reason for war in '09, so what changed?

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1295678752' post='2591426']
So, I don't really see how you saying 'shut up or your terms get worse' is any better than many of the things NPO did over the years, and strictly speaking, NpO at worst assisted a spy and accepted information, something you didn't accept as a valid reason for war in '09, so what changed?
[/quote]

They have a little more muscle now.

Their tune will change when they're on the bottom again tho.

[NewPoseidon]

[quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1295678752' post='2591426']
So, I don't really see how you saying 'shut up or your terms get worse' is any better than many of the things NPO did over the years, and strictly speaking, NpO at worst assisted a spy and accepted information, something you didn't accept as a valid reason for war in '09, so what changed?
[/quote]
You're saying that [i]my post makes VE=NPO[/i]? How's that even possible? VE members understand, I think, that rank and file NpO didn't have anything to do with this, except through indirect means of general ill-feelings towards VE (if such ill-feelings exist at all). But when individuals post, in defense of NpO, things that are crude and offensive it doesn't exactly make us wanna announce white peace, ya know?

[Ellis]

[quote name='NewPoseidon' timestamp='1295687339' post='2591624']
You're saying that [i]my post makes VE=NPO[/i]? How's that even possible? VE members understand, I think, that rank and file NpO didn't have anything to do with this, except through indirect means of general ill-feelings towards VE (if such ill-feelings exist at all). But when individuals post, in defense of NpO, things that are crude and offensive it doesn't exactly make us wanna announce white peace, ya know?
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, I think I said that you made a thinly veiled threat that was much like those of the bad old days, and that was somewhat ironic given that previously in your post you scorned the idea that 'NPO wasn't that bad' and that many find your alliance's recent actions very similar to those taken by Pacifica during the past.
I realise you are not your entire alliance, and you shouldn't try words in my mouth
Besides, I can understand that you might find people calling VE an empty shell offensive, if you're kinda thin-skinned, but it's hard to see why you think people's opinions on NPO in general and NpO's recent actions in particular are offensive.

[Heft]

[quote name='NewPoseidon' timestamp='1295687339' post='2591624']
You're saying that [i]my post makes VE=NPO[/i]? How's that even possible? VE members understand, I think, that rank and file NpO didn't have anything to do with this, except through indirect means of general ill-feelings towards VE (if such ill-feelings exist at all). But when individuals post, in defense of NpO, things that are crude and offensive it doesn't exactly make us wanna announce white peace, ya know?
[/quote]
If you're offended by people criticizing you, then you'd be better off not declaring offensive wars, especially ones that are so obviously questionable ("questionable" is being generous). Otherwise, no one is going to care about your feelings.

[General Scipio]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1295652999' post='2589715']
They've yet to aknowledge this yet and I doubt they will. I could be proven wrong from a Viridian, so please tell me why you have aided a nation who spied on you?
[/quote]
Say someone comes to the FBI and says "I'm a spy here's proof" do you really think the FBI will punish him the same way they would someone they caught themselves? Or would they reward the behaviour to try to see if others will follow with it?

If someone comes and admits to spying and is then shot in the head, do you really think anyone else will ever do it?

[Cousins]

Roll them evil spies, VE!!

o/ VE
o/ wF

Edited January 22, 2011 by Cousins

[Bob Janova]

[quote]please tell me why you have aided a nation who spied on you?[/quote]
Lennox came forward with all the information on the spying, instead of using it for hostile purposes. As part of that he's being protected.

[quote]NpO at worst assisted a spy and accepted information, something you didn't accept as a valid reason for war in '09, so what changed?[/quote]
Way to hide a whole lot in the word 'assisted'. That, in fact, is where the difference between Karma and this war lies. Dajobo [i]assisted[/i] Lennox in picking a target, the mechanics of the operation (choosing a nation name and so on) and actively participated in the reception of the information. Those things all show much more of an intent than the Karma info-drop.

I realise that you ex-Hegemony commentators have to try to blur the lines to convince people who weren't there that Karma was unfair and the new world order is as bad as the NPO's, but it's not correct. There is a big difference between receiving information and [i]actively[/i] participating in the obtaining of that information.

[auto98]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295701062' post='2591777']
Lennox came forward with all the information on the spying, instead of using it for hostile purposes. As part of that he's being protected.


Way to hide a whole lot in the word 'assisted'. That, in fact, is where the difference between Karma and this war lies. Dajobo [i]assisted[/i] Lennox in picking a target, the mechanics of the operation (choosing a nation name and so on) and actively participated in the reception of the information. Those things all show much more of an intent than the Karma info-drop.

[b]I realise that you ex-Hegemony commentators have to try to blur the lines to convince people who weren't there that Karma was unfair and the new world order is as bad as the NPO's, but it's not correct.[/b] There is a big difference between receiving information and [i]actively[/i] participating in the obtaining of that information.
[/quote]

Indeed - it is far worse. To decry when someone else doers something, then do the same yourself is the height of hypocrisy. NPO of course just did it, rightly or wrongly. That doesn't make them hypocrites like the current and soon to be former top dogs of bob.

[Dajobo]

Not all that many months ago I was a fan of the way Bob Janova had and displayed morals. Not that long ago I thought he was someone who looked for the truth and then made informed decisions. What happened to that guy?

Bob please [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97492&view=findpost&p=2590870"]read this[/url].

[Bob Janova]

Ah thanks I had skipped over that post. (There are too many posts in the last few days to read every one!)

If your defence is to be believed then you were just playing along with a joke, but that isn't really a good idea when the joke involves spying on an alliance (particularly one that you already thought was 'gunning for you'!), and helping the spy pick a reroll identity. I mean, instead of saying 'don't spy on MHA, they're not the enemy, spy on MK/VE instead' you just needed to say 'Don't be a fool, don't spy' and there would be no problem. I mean it's pretty much a rule of being in a position of government that if someone queries you and talks about spying you tell them that your alliance doesn't support spying and they should go away. Playing along with a 'joke', especially from a known troublemaker, and telling them to go spy on a different alliance is, at best, extreme naivité.

And heh, people often start complaining that I've changed when the information damns them . The fact is that in this case you supported Lennox rerolling into VE to spy, even if you didn't think he'd actually do it, and therefore there is a perfectly good CB against you (and because of your position, your alliance).

[DevastationStation]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295704044' post='2591812']
Ah thanks I had skipped over that post. (There are too many posts in the last few days to read every one!)

If your defence is to be believed then you were just playing along with a joke, but that isn't really a good idea when the joke involves spying on an alliance (particularly one that you already thought was 'gunning for you'!), and helping the spy pick a reroll identity. I mean, instead of saying 'don't spy on MHA, they're not the enemy, spy on MK/VE instead' you just needed to say 'Don't be a fool, don't spy' and there would be no problem. I mean it's pretty much a rule of being in a position of government that if someone queries you and talks about spying you tell them that your alliance doesn't support spying and they should go away. Playing along with a 'joke', especially from a known troublemaker, and telling them to go spy on a different alliance is, at best, extreme naivité.

And heh, people often start complaining that I've changed when the information damns them . The fact is that in this case you supported Lennox rerolling into VE to spy, even if you didn't think he'd actually do it, and therefore there is a perfectly good CB against you (and because of your position, your alliance).
[/quote]


I call BS, the only thing Dajobo really is guilty of here is trusting a friend, while behind the scenes he secretly plotted to destroy him with 'the enemy'. This isn't conspiracy anymore, this is fact, straight from the horses mouth. I'm not even sure how this can be disputed anymore. Sorry, but this is a clear cut case of Might makes Right, and so much for that change and Karma crap - meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Anyway, back to eating

[Solaris]

[quote name='DevastationStation' timestamp='1295705333' post='2591824']
I call BS, the only thing Dajobo really is guilty of here is trusting a friend, while behind the scenes he secretly plotted to destroy him with 'the enemy'. This isn't conspiracy anymore, this is fact, straight from the horses mouth. I'm not even sure how this can be disputed anymore. Sorry, but this is a clear cut case of Might makes Right, and so much for that change and Karma crap - meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Anyway, back to eating
[/quote]
You can maybe afford to give someone like Dajobo the benefit of the doubt, but it's not your alliance Dajobo was targetting.

[DevastationStation]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1295705705' post='2591829']
You can maybe afford to give someone like Dajobo the benefit of the doubt, but it's not your alliance Dajobo was targetting.
[/quote]


You misunderstand, nobody is completely innocent but for admin's sake, call this war for what it is, stop hiding behind this psuedo barrier of righteousness.

Look, everybody got the war that they have been begging for for months, but at what cost I wonder?

[Mark Ashton]

[quote name='DevastationStation' timestamp='1295706337' post='2591836']
You misunderstand, nobody is completely innocent but for admin's sake, call this war for what it is, stop hiding behind this psuedo barrier of righteousness.

Look, everybody got the war that they have been begging for for months, but at what cost I wonder?
[/quote]
no costs.

I'd agree with Bob Janova, however I think that Viridia is the aggressor here. I don't doubt the validity of the CB however I think that since they didn't try diplomacy and since they made this trap up, they did he first move. That would e.g. perfectly justify RoK claiming they honor their [i]defensive[/i] obligations first.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1295705705' post='2591829']
You can maybe afford to give someone like Dajobo the benefit of the doubt, but it's not your alliance Dajobo was targetting.
[/quote]
He didnt target your alliance, your alliance and the spy [u]you [/u]ran targeted Polar.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1295688753' post='2591634']
I realise you are not your entire alliance, and you shouldn't try [color="#FF0000"]to put[/color] words in my mouth
[/quote]

iFix.


Sorry Ellis - it was right in front of me, screamin at me

[Bob Janova]

[quote]I'd agree with Bob Janova, however I think that Viridia is the aggressor here[/quote]
Uh, sure ... we started the war, of course we are

Alterego, you're running around all the threads still trying to claim that we 'ran' Lennox, even though he's clearly shown he's a free agent, and it was ridiculous even before then. Please go away.

[Mark Ashton]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295712020' post='2591973']
Uh, sure ... we started the war, of course we are

Alterego, you're running around all the threads still trying to claim that we 'ran' Lennox, even though he's clearly shown he's a free agent, and it was ridiculous even before then. Please go away.
[/quote]

it was debated elsewhere that spying is an aggression and thus VE is only defending itself.

[Corinan]

[quote name='Mark Ashton' timestamp='1295712103' post='2591977']
it was debated elsewhere that spying is an aggression and thus VE is only defending itself.
[/quote]

Also when you consider the fact that it's now come to light that VE hired Lennox to do the spying, well yeah that pretty much makes them the aggressor at that point.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='NewPoseidon' timestamp='1295556690' post='2587085']
....it's like living in a different universe. NpO didn't spy, NPO wasn't that bad, VE is an empty shell. When I tune in tomorrow will I see arguments in favor of fallout shelters?

Talk it off NpO (&NSO&NPO), talk it off. Good luck with your rebuilding when this is all over. Keep in mind though, that the more you flame VE the less willing VE members will be to give you lenient terms. Just some advice.
[/quote]

We're not even in the war. You think we're afraid of an alliance that disbanded once?

And all that talk about NAAC get the $%&@ over it, this happened what like 4 years ago?